I realize noone reads this forum, but Grotesques:

[ShadowDeth]

Anyone buy 3 just to force leadership checks at the beginning of the game? Best 45 points ever spent.

Put them ahead of everything else by at least an inch or so and you're in business.

[Lomendil]

It's not how I use them. It's not compatible with my WWP army as everything on foot will be moving forwards, and Grotesques without an IC leader need to pass a Ld test on Ld 5 to even move. It's also going to be of limited use against high Ld and mobile enemies. Against Ld 7 it's nice as you'll block 40% of incoming shots - though the enemy might opt to drill the obstructing Grotesques out of the way quickly with a volley of S6+ weaponry, and then target the unit behind with weaker weapons. But at Ld 8 the failure rate for Ld tests drops to 25%, and at Ld 9 it's right down to only 17%.

[ShadowDeth]

Right, but it is 45 points to change your opponent's game plan if you don't get to go first. It doesn't matter if they won't move again. The points are meaningless for what they offer up on the field.

For the token ability to control the way your opponent plays the game, I think it's well spent points if you have the elite slot open - and I usually do. I'm fully aware they won't move from that spot or contribute.

[Lomendil]

I'm dubious that you're able to control the way the opponent plays the game simply by giving yourself a small chance of blocking shots to other infantry squads. I suppose it could be useful if you have a lot of infantry to begin with (as in a WWP list or one with loads of Sniper Squads) and the enemy army has Ld 7 or at a push, 8. But unless you are playing low Ld armies then it isn't really going to have a lot of impact - and even then they can easily deal with it by blasting off a few S6+ weapons to quickly wipe out or rout the tiny Grotesque unit, a trick opponents will quickly learn if confounded more than once by this tactic. As I say, against Ld 8 it's of less use though not useless, but against Ld 9 and 10 it's insignificant. You might be able to bluff out some players into shooting at something else, but I think most players - especially those with high Ld armies like CSM - will just happily take the small risk of failing the Ld test.

Hey, but if it works for you right now then it works, can't bash that. Just don't get too reliant as it has plenty of flaws.

[ShadowDeth]

I'm dubious that you're able to control the way the opponent plays the game simply by giving yourself a small chance of blocking shots to other infantry squads. I suppose it could be useful if you have a lot of infantry to begin with (as in a WWP list or one with loads of Sniper Squads) and the enemy army has Ld 7 or at a push, 8. But unless you are playing low Ld armies then it isn't really going to have a lot of impact - and even then they can easily deal with it by blasting off a few S6+ weapons to quickly wipe out or rout the tiny Grotesque unit, a trick opponents will quickly learn if confounded more than once by this tactic. As I say, against Ld 8 it's of less use though not useless, but against Ld 9 and 10 it's insignificant. You might be able to bluff out some players into shooting at something else, but I think most players - especially those with high Ld armies like CSM - will just happily take the small risk of failing the Ld test.

Hey, but if it works for you right now then it works, can't bash that. Just don't get too reliant as it has plenty of flaws.

Oh, I have no idea if it works for me. I have never tried it but it seems like for 45 measly points you can do something towards protecting your fragile portal carriers. I know it's not a fullproof plan to any extent, but it's just 45 points! You can't deny that!

By the way, how do you use them? With a Tooled up archon + 3 grots in a raider coming out of a portal? Auto win and run down any non space marine squad? It seems easy enough for them to trail the arcon and never actually reach the front line, while they are still counted as being in the combat correct?

[Lomendil]

I find that large Warrior squad meatshields in front of Haemonculi is plenty of protection.

I don't use Grotesques in a WWP army at all, because they are almost completely useless in such lists due to the rules for Independent Characters in Reserve. The character can't join a squad 'off the board', so can't arrive on the board attached to the Grotesque unit. Grotesques without an IC are severely hampered, and a turn will be wasted to get an Archon to jump up into their Raider with them, and that's assuming they arrive on the same turn. I've used them occasionally in Raider Rushes, but normally I just stay clear of them.

Besides, breaking and destroying a unit in the same turn that you charge isn't always desirable, if your opponent has spaced his units out sensibly then it will leave your assaulters standing underneath the enemy guns for a turn.. Ideally an assault will last two turns, one assault phase in your turn and then a second in the opponents in which it's won by you - then you can wipe out the enemy unit and have no fear of being shot up because it will be your turn next.

[Kangaroo Joe]

As a point, would I get Mob Size Checks with these leadership checks (I usually go, so I was wondering)

[Lomendil]

The Grotesques 'Terrifying Opponent' rules make all units Fall Back automatically with no Ld test being taken, so Orks don't get to have a Mob Size check - they just leg it. Which just goes to show that Grotesques must be truly, utterly hideous to make Orks run away from a good fight. Maybe they just smell really really bad. I know the models stink, at least.

[Arguleon-veq]

Off topic but.........

'I know the models stink, at least.'

Really!?, lol, I really like them. Along with the Reaver Jetbikes and Raiders/Ravagers I think they are the best DE models. Better than all the other metals IMO. Thats probably just me though......

[Lomendil]

It's the one with the silly 'Geordi La Forge' visor that I really object to. The others aren't so bad, but still on the weak side IMO. I think Warriors mixed with WFB Zombie parts plus bits from the Spiky Bitz sprue work best.

[Subzero]

http://secondsphere.org/archive/index.php?topic=10702.0

Grotesque that has been experimented on.

[Wargamer]

I've never actually used Grotesques myself... nor fought them. However, they do remind me of the original Thousand Sons, so they'll always have a place in my heart.

It's the one with the silly 'Geordi La Forge' visor that I really object to.

Oh come now Lomendil, who hasn't dreamed of torturing the Star Trek cast at some point or another? Peaceful solution my dyi, torpedo the bloddy Romulans!

[Lomendil]

If it actually was Geordi La Forge then I'd love the model. Would make a good theme Golden Daemon diorama, come to think of it: the entire crew of the Enterprise being mangled and mutilated in a Haemonculus' laboratory, with Data stood in the corner after being converted into a novelty condom vending machine. Certainly unusual and would definately grab attention, quite possibly of a professional psychiatric nature.

[the_vilest_worm]

frankly, grotesques are way to slow to fit into a dark eldar army. when playing the dark kin, you have to be able to outmaneuver your oponet or you have about as much chance to win as fire warriors to against 5 chaos dragnets and a ork mob.

[Fish Ead]

Ive seen Grotesques used in a "Haemonculous coven" army list that a friend of mine whipped up.   Man I hate being I2 when those guys come charging in...