[CSM] Slaaneshi Army List (1st revision)

[Khanaris]

I think the easiest thing would simply be to restrict spam to one thread.  So Enclave "games" are fine, but only when they are not based around spamming.  So you keep the Mafia threads but discard the three-word-story threads.

I think moving away from Tau is probably a mistake.  The internet is an ecosystem of sorts.  If you can not carve out a unique niche, you are going to struggle a great deal against larger organisms in the same niche.  When Tau Online was running well, we had little competition.  We weren't trying to be a Space Marine forum, and ATT had a different focus.  So we brought in a lot of Tau players.

But if our focus is all of 40k we are competing with a lot of very large and active forums.  What reason will there be for any new member to sign up here?  What can we offer that they could not find elsewhere?

[Farseer Del]

It's not so much moving away from Tau as expanding other aspects really. Perhaps we could establish a number of niches, using our Tau heritage to ensure it's many niches -one website

But the fact is we never were a Tau site even with the name. TO was always more generalised but with a Tau aspect fuelling it. 2S as a name illustrates that our basis is the same in that the term is Tau-like,  but it refers to the site itself in that we're aiming to expand a bit beyond what we were in many areas.

[Sorck the Spork]

One more thing; I think the Spam thread should be a lot less about spamming and a lot more of actual discussions about random topics.

To be fair, plenty of real discussions start in the spam thread. They last a page or two and fizzle out, usually. Any longer than that and they should have their own thread anyway.

Zenai, you've got the sort of idea that we're going for.

Although it's possible for the Spam Thread to be re-focussed, it will likely be easier to start a new Chat Thread.

Mabbz, the discussion(s) that occur in the Spam Thread is generally quite good but there is still a lot of posts which are sometimes as simple as the unacceptable:
[quote topic=3]Spam![/quote]

I cannot over-emphasize that the Enclave will be staying and it will still be an off-topic section of the site. However, it will not be tolerating spam posts any longer. Posts such as the above mentioned "Spam!" are in no way keeping people on the site or helping the community.


The following has been merged into the OP.

[spoiler]
We're not primarily aiming at refocussing the enclave, rather we are aiming to improve the site in general by reducing the amount of what is basically spam, pushing for more content and improving the sites usability.

How will we improve usability?
We're looking to create a more sophisticated website over the next few weeks which will be able to house articles in an easy to browse manner. The forums themselves will see changes as well in the forms of board re-structuring, the details of which haven't been decided upon exactly but the following is the kind of changes that we're leaning towards at the moment:

[rest of boards above unchanged]

Other Games Category
   Specialist Games (Battlefleet Gothic, Blood Bowl etc)
   Warmachine
   Other Games (Battle Tech, Magic the Gathering, CCG, board games but not video games)
      Roleplay

[Hobby boards]

Enclave Category
   The Asylum (general off topic)
      Serious Debate and Discussion (same as ever)
      Music (same as ever)
      Computing/Technology (including console and PC games, programming, computer issues, technology related topics like mobile phones, new military tech etc)

[rest of forum]

How're we going to grow the site?
We're going to try and grow the site but what the administration can do in search engine optimisation, site design and promoting ourselves by our Facebook page and group are only a small part of the battle. You, the members, are where the community is and how most of the quality content comes from. We will be looking for you to write article for our new website so that we have content which will attract in guests.

With regards to articles, we may consider having in-board targets to have article written on certain subjects. For example, the Tau board moderators may decide to have a push for an updated Fire Warrior Tactica. For those who submit article, whether those being pushed for or others, we may use them on the website and possibly give you other rewards (a very good article may gain karma, for example but this is in now way guaranteed).

We will also be trying to grow our groups outside of the SecondSphere.org domain. We will be trying to keep our Facebook page and group up to date with the latest site news and we will be looking into the use of other sites such as Twitter and possibly producing our own podcasts on Youtube.

However, we are a community here so your views and suggestions on the matter. The OP will be updated with what I have covered in this post.

It must be emphasised that we are not targeting the enclave (though it will be affected), rather we are aiming to clean, reorganise and polish up the whole forums.[/spoiler]

[Cammerz]

The idea of "more fantasy boards", really the only addition I think could be useful is to seperate the traditional fantasy battle reports to the new-style ones.

I have no honest opinion of the enclave changes as I rarely venture over there and haven't used the enclave games apart from once when we first moved here from TO.
The arguments for removing the spam seem valid enough, I can't see any point to spam and cetainly wouldn't mourn its passing.

As for the website shift. Might it not be easier to just expand the current home page into a full website. As long as there are easily visible links to the forum then it should work fine.

My only real questions are;
1) When do you intend to make these changes?
2) Will the forum be down for any length of time and if so, for how long?

[Sorck the Spork]

My only real questions are;
1) When do you intend to make these changes?

The changes will be made over the next few months. Changes such as board layout are easy to introduce but the new website will take a few weeks to code and bug test sufficiently for public release.

2) Will the forum be down for any length of time and if so, for how long?

The forums shouldn't have any downtime, though the website/portal may have to be taken offline for a short time during the transition from the 2S V1 to the 2S V2 site.

We may also introduce a new theme along with the website but this will depend upon time constraints.

[Khanaris]

But the fact is we never were a Tau site even with the name. TO was always more generalised but with a Tau aspect fuelling it. 2S as a name illustrates that our basis is the same in that the term is Tau-like,  but it refers to the site itself in that we're aiming to expand a bit beyond what we were in many areas.

I think it is less about what the site's focus actually is than about how it appears from the outside.  We certainly weren't Tau-exclusive, but that is where we saw the majority of our new members.  That was the "hook".  Once landed, they populated discussions in other parts of the site.  And eventually those threads were crawled by the search engine spiders and gave us external pathways for other types of member.

If we want to thrive as a forum, we have to find niches in which we can compete.  When Bell of Lost Souls got started, their primary draw was that they presented Rumors in a very easy-to-read form very quickly.  They were really the first 40k blog to take off that way.  But I would put down a lot of their success to an absence of competition in that one particular arena.

[Tau-killer]

What I find so infuriating and baffling about this topic, is that several of those, who are now happily supporting this crackdown against certain Enclave topics, have happily participated in the said topics in the past!  So I have to ask about their reasoning - is it ok for them to take part and have some fun in such topics, but as soon as other people take part, then does it become completely unacceptable and damaging to the forum?

Let's take Sorck first.  Do you, Sorck, claim that your posts here in various topics really represent the kind of 'mature discussion' that you now say you want to advocate:

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,120.msg80859.html#msg80859

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,29.40.html

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,68.msg103446.html#msg103446

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,42973.msg484440.html#msg484440

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,126.msg84730.html#msg84730

http://secondsphere.org/index.php?topic=3.1680

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,3.17980.html

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,120.msg98828.html#msg98828


But of course, it would be wrong to single out Sorck for exclusive criticism.  Let's take Chapter Master Seth, who now criticises what he sees as 'useless' and 'thoughtless posting'.  But that hasn't stopped him from making some equally 'useless' and 'thoughtless' posts of his own:

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,126.msg10742.html#msg10742

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,42973.msg484952.html#msg484952

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,3.1220.html

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,15592.0.html

So is it ok for him to take part in various Enclave games threads or the spam thread, but if anyone else does it, then it becomes thoughtless drivel!


And Zenai - you now tell us that the spam thread should be a lot less about spamming.  If that's the case, then why make posts like these:

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,3.18580.html

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,3.msg1451486.html#msg1451486

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,3.msg1445573.html#msg1445573

http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,3.msg1445898.html#msg1445898


So, I suppose the point I'm making is - please get off your high horses, people.  I'd find it a lot easier to take the points you're making more seriously, if they weren't so thoroughly contradicted by posts you've made elsewhere!

[Finn]

That was before this proposal was made else I would have thought that the Spam Thread would still be doomed to be there for the sole reason for spamming. I can easily abide the no spamming rule if it was imposed. Also, I see you are being a kettle.

However, you may have pointed out something important; what exactly constitutes a spam-post?

[Lord Solar Harbinger]

<snip>

Do as I say not as I do. Pointing out our hypocrisies does not mean that we cannot learn from them and guide future members not to follow them.

[Tau-killer]

Also, I see you are being a kettle.

However, you may have pointed out something important; what exactly constitutes a spam-post?

I fail to see how.  I've taken the exact same consistent line on this issue every single time it's raised its tedious head for the last three years!

And furthermore:

<snip>

Do as I say not as I do. Pointing out our hypocrisies does not mean that we cannot learn from them and guide future members not to follow them.

This has to rank as one of the feeblest justifications from someone in a position of authority that I have ever seen.

Edit, material relating to misunderstood joke removed

[Finn]

So TK, what is your suggestion then? Maintain status quo?

[Lord Solar Harbinger]

<snip>

Do as I say not as I do. Pointing out our hypocrisies does not mean that we cannot learn from them and guide future members not to follow them.

This has to rank as one of the feeblest justifications from someone in a position of authority that I have ever seen.

What, to learn from our mistakes? If the duty of the moderator and admin staff is not to set down rules that were learn from experience than what is it?

[Farseer Del]

But you're right; thatis a very good question.  Now, in the spam thread, in which it is compulsory for the word spam to appear in the title at all times, we apparently have moderators removing posts on the basis that they are - spam?  Am I the only one who sees how nonsensical this is?

Much like most of this thread so far, that was a joke. The difference is, mine was meant to be amusing, and was misunderstood. This joke however is just pathetic, because once again we managed to slip up and fail to make it clear there were multiple issues at hand and you have latched onto one single bugbear.

TK, we're seeking to strike and improve the balance. We have no desire to wipe the Enclave out, we simply wish to go away from what it is to something more productive. This is part of a site wide cleanup and drive to add more content - Cleaning Spam up is just an attempt to bring the Enclave more into the fold.

The past is not relevant to this. Things are changing, this is the crux of the matter. We're trying to make this site better and larger, and that means content. The Spam Thread is merely going to be brought back into line with other regulations. For inane random points, we have Chat. 

If you feel so strongly about this matter, tell me three things.
1) What is the definition of spam?
2) What purposes does it serve that cannot be covered by chat?
3) What difference does it truly make?

We don't want to shut people out. We want a discussion of our ideas, the problem is, our ideas were not fully formed when this was first announced and as a result things are being disrupted. I'm personally thinking we should lock this and restart when we're actually able to present the plans all at once for discussion, but this whole matter is getting out of hand when we aren't even starting yet.

I will not lock it, however, but I am stating here and now I am pushing for it, to discard this discussion and do it properly. This has been a series of errors, and miscommunication.

[Tau-killer]

So TK, what is your suggestion then? Maintain status quo?

Well, with respect to the Enclave then I don't see a problem with the status quo.

Of course, I should emphasise, as I've said before, that I have no problem whatsoever with diversifying away from Tau or with creating a new website, but with regard to the Enclave issue specifically:

Every single time this issue arises, those supporting further Enclave restrictions would have us believe that there is a great problem.  That we have to do something.  And if we do nothing, something very bad is going to happen.

However, I don't buy this scaremongering, and I never have.  I really do not see a problem whatsoever.  The spam thread for instance has been chuntering along perfectly happily up till now, not causing any problems or arguments or flame wars whatsoever. 

And again, what harm is the Enclave Games board doing - absolutely none.  Again, I see no arguments or flame wars in that board, just people, who find those threads amusing, having some harmless fun.  These topics are not hurting this forum in any way whatsoever.  When Tau-Online was first founded in 2004, one of the very first threads that was created was a 'Three Word Story' thread - started by Tau-Online (the person) himself, for goodness sake.  How on earth has this forum survived so long if we believe people such as CMS, who are now preaching to us about how destructive such threads are.

Edit, having just seen Del's post:

Much like most of this thread so far, that was a joke. The difference is, mine was meant to be amusing, and was misunderstood.

Acknowledged.  My apologies for the misunderstanding.

If you feel so strongly about this matter, tell me three things.
1) What is the definition of spam?
2) What purposes does it serve that cannot be covered by chat?
3) What difference does it truly make?

1.  I don't know; it's a very difficult concept to define.  I suppose the best I can do is say that like the Silents in Doctor Who, you know it when you see it!

2.  Well, not everyone uses chat for instance.  I never do, so I never have the faintest idea what goes on in chat. 

3.  I think it a good thing to have controlled, regulated places in the actual forum where spam is allowed - such as in the one spam thread, for instance.  It does keep it under control.  Furthermore, a complete blanket forum-wide prohibition would not be constructive in my view, especially not on this forum where we have had spam designated areas for so long.  And, as I said above, it does not seem to be doing any harm whatsoever.

[Farseer Del]

Well, what about blogs or a shoutbox, come to think of it? Just a random idea but if there were blogs for members to use (with the option that some blog posts decay and will auto-delete, unless marked as important by the poster to keep them permanent) and a shoutbox that would have comments decay after about 7 days (with again an option to mark them to go into a shoutbox archive) perhaps this could strike a balance.

Members could make their blog posts, or a shoutbox style thing (IE never treated as an actual post), for more random parts. It would be semi-permanent, and anything of value can be marked as such and archived.

Not sure if it's viable or if it would help but maybe it might just be able to fix the main matter of the spam thread.

[Dragonborn Seth]

Every single time this issue arises, those supporting further Enclave restrictions would have us believe that there is a great problem.  That we have to do something.  And if we do nothing, something very bad is going to happen.

What the hell are you even talking about? Nobody here is acting the part of some prophet of armageddon. The Enclave is not going to cause the site to explode or kill us in our sleep or steal us and replace us with clones incapable of love.

All that is going on here is an update to the website, in dozens of ways. A new website, a new presentation, streamlined boards, more advertising. We want to encourage content, and while we're at it discourage spam. If anything, I feel you are the one blowing the consequences grossly out of proportion. Is something very bad going to happen if we cut a sub-board which by its very definition is pointless spam while we're cleaning up and updating the rest of the site?

But of course, it would be wrong to single out Sorck for exclusive criticism.  Let's take Chapter Master Seth, who now criticises what he sees as 'useless' and 'thoughtless posting'.  But that hasn't stopped him from making some equally 'useless' and 'thoughtless' posts of his own:

*snip*

So is it ok for him to take part in various Enclave games threads or the spam thread, but if anyone else does it, then it becomes thoughtless drivel!

I'm flattered you'd go through my history like that, but I'm not sure what it proves. Every member who has access posts there more than a little. And I would certainly consider even my own posts there silly and thoughtless. I don't believe I ever said my own spam doesn't stink, so kindly don't put words into my mouth.


I don't see how a spam board, or thread, is a positive aspect to the site. Do I think it's going to kill it and eat our babies? No, so don't even go there. But I don't see how it's important. Most websites would never stand for such a thing, and for good reason - it's spam! It's by its very nature unproductive.

It always strikes me when there is a certain feeling of entitlement to such spam-centric areas. It's a luxury (and a fairly odd one, in my own opinion), not a critical component of a website or even of a tight-knit community.

[Unholy Harbinger]

Surely blogs would just clog up the forum even more, and another forum I use uses a shoutbox. And 'uses' is the very definition of a loose word normally it is, "Tyr, get in chat." They simply aren't used as they are chat but annoying and worse.

Lets just analyse this. You are saying you want to stop spammy stuff to increase productivity in other parts of the forum.
Spam
Your average spam/game post takes an extremely small amount of time at most 30 seconds to read the previous and post a response.

Productive posting
Takes much longer as the entire previous thread must be read to prevent being a parrot, then more content and forming a good coherant point in a post so lets say maybe 3minutes.

Using these guestimates we could theorise that cutting spam would mean for every 6 spam posts we would get 1  productive. But then it is far easier to find a spammy/game thread to post in than a productive one so overall we could double or treble that to say we would see an increase of 1 productive post for every 12/18 spam.  I think we will actually overall see a decrease in activity as the increase would be negligible but there would be less incentive to log on if you suck the fun out the enclave.

This is just opinion as I have no access to actual stats to look at.

I am not resisting for the sake of resisting I genuinely think it would be a bad move. While I don't mind diversifying and trying to 'mature the forum' I think this isn't the right way to go about it.