Chicken and egg question

[AndrewC]

If a unit fails a pinning/morale roll, which takes preference?

Regimental Standard or Summary Execution

Cheers

Andrew

[Jeff]

Regimental Standard.

If still failing, Summery Execution.

[AndrewC]

But there lies the problem.

Both rules are triggered by a failed check.

Standard, if you fail reroll.
Execution, if you fail, shoot someone and reroll.

But you can't reroll a reroll, so only one can take preference, so which is it?

Andrew

[Masked Thespian]

I would suggest that in such a situation, where both rules have an equal right to be used, then you should always roll a d6 to decide (1-3 = Standard, 4-6 = Execution).

[Wargamer]

It seems clear the Banner takes precedent.

Remember, a passed re-roll is not a failure, therefore the option of the re-roll is a safety net. Consider; Pinning does not work until after all re-rolls, FNP and so forth have taken place. Nor, in fact, do morale checks.

As such, Summary Execution cannot kick in until any and all re-rolls have been made.

[Masked Thespian]

On the other hand, Wargamer, both rules offer a reroll in the case of a failed check so why couldn't the same argument be used to justify Summary Execution kick in first?

[Wargamer]

Well, because of this:

Banner allows you to re-roll straight away. Summary Execution has a "Do X then re-roll" setup. In other words, you have to take an in-between action before the re-roll can be made.

Thus, it is not a 'true' re-roll; it is, in fact, taking the test again under new conditions.

[Masked Thespian]

Hmm...  Can the two then be combined to reroll a reroll?

[AndrewC]

No you can't reroll a reroll, the rules specifically forbid it.

Also you could argue that if anything the Execution wuold take preference as it is 'part' of the unit and is immediate rather than an external factor.

Andrew

[Wargamer]

Summary Execution is an external factor - a Commissar can potentially leave the squad (if a Commissar Lord), but a standard bearer cannot!

Think of it in logical steps, and it becomes clear.

STEP 1: Determine if the unit must take a Morale Check.

STEP 2: Determine Leadership value.
Here is where the Standard kicks in - as far as the rules are concerned, a unit with re-rollable leadership has not failed its Morale Check unless the original roll and the re-roll have failed. Thus, the Standard is part of Step 2.

STEP 3: Special fall-back conditions.
This is where the Commissar comes in. Normally, a unit must fall back upon failing its Morale Check. However, a Commissar intervenes - Summary Execution applies here.

STEP 4: Fall-back movement.


As I have said, Summary Execution is not a re-roll. It is a re-take. For the Standard, there is no action between failing the initial roll and taking the re-roll. With Summary Execution, there is. Therefore, the Standard takes precedent due to lack of a "mid-step".

[AndrewC]

Summary Execution is an external factor - a Commissar can potentially leave the squad (if a Commissar Lord), but a standard bearer cannot!

Think of it in logical steps, and it becomes clear.

STEP 1: Determine if the unit must take a Morale Check.

STEP 2: Determine Leadership value.
Here is where the Standard kicks in - as far as the rules are concerned, a unit with re-rollable leadership has not failed its Morale Check unless the original roll and the re-roll have failed. Thus, the Standard is part of Step 2.

STEP 3: Special fall-back conditions.
This is where the Commissar comes in. Normally, a unit must fall back upon failing its Morale Check. However, a Commissar intervenes - Summary Execution applies here.

STEP 4: Fall-back movement.


As I have said, Summary Execution is not a re-roll. It is a re-take. For the Standard, there is no action between failing the initial roll and taking the re-roll. With Summary Execution, there is. Therefore, the Standard takes precedent due to lack of a "mid-step".

Sorry but Summary Execution is a re-roll not a re-take and this might be where our different interpretations lie.

Also the unit has to have failed it's morale check, because the mechanism for both the standard and commissar is a failed check.  If the Regimental Standard allowed you to simply re-roll morale checks with no specification of pass/fail, you would be right and the order would be standard and then commissar.  But both rules specify that in order to gain the re-roll you must first fail the initial test.

Sorry about the external factor I was thinking of the 12" area of affect for the standard when I wrote the earlier post.

Cheers

Andrew

[Wargamer]

Well, the logical conclusion then is to follow the rule of 40K; best save wins.

You must always take your best save. This is actually in the rules, and it stops people trying to 'fail' saves to get an edge (ie: you can't elect to take a 5+ Invulnerable save on a Terminator if they could take their 2+ Armour Save instead). As the Standard is favourible to Summary Execution (no downside), it is taken first.

[AndrewC]

Logical and reasonable.

An extension from that, if you fail both rolls, even though you can't roll again, does the Commissar still shoot someone?

Cheers

Andrew

[Boneguard]

Logical and reasonable.

An extension from that, if you fail both rolls, even though you can't roll again, does the Commissar still shoot someone?

I would say no, becasue it is a reroll of a reroll...which is not allowed by the rules.

[gumgum921]

I would presume that if you use the standard to reroll your leadership then you can't elect to use the commissar's summary execution as you can't reroll the reroll.