Author Topic: Dwarf advice  (Read 54 times)

Offline The Man They Call Jayne

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Dwarf advice
« on: October 13, 2009, 11:54:57 PM »
i have the skull pass set, an extra 16 warriors and 5 slayers and an organ gun.

can people suggest a good list with this stuff, particularly runes for things.

also, longbeards and rangers upgrades, are they worth it?
Ja'nus (E,TD) Farooq (E,UD) Ko'Rah (FTGG) Magnus (The Heresy) Wothan (Might and Magic) Sir (to the rest of you)

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Everything is an ork weapon eventually.

Jayne is correct.

There's no rule in any rulebook saying that you can't do it.  But there's also no rule in print saying that I can't hire an industrial woodchipper and feed your models into it if you do so.

Jayne couldn't be stopped by a Reaver fleet.

Minigiant

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Re: Dwarf advice
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2009, 08:48:32 AM »
Post up a list then we will comment on it

Offline The Man They Call Jayne

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Re: Dwarf advice
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 12:31:33 PM »
ok, i have a Thane

a Dragon Slayer

5 Slayers

8 Miners

10 Thunderers

28 warriors

a cannon with engineer and and organ gun.

im tempted to make the warriors in to a squad of 10 and make the rest into longbeard rangers, but are they worth the points, and what about throwing axes?

should i put runes on the cannon?

my main opponants are Orc &Goblins, and High Elves.
Ja'nus (E,TD) Farooq (E,UD) Ko'Rah (FTGG) Magnus (The Heresy) Wothan (Might and Magic) Sir (to the rest of you)

Jaynes Awesome Card Counter: +5


Everything is an ork weapon eventually.

Jayne is correct.

There's no rule in any rulebook saying that you can't do it.  But there's also no rule in print saying that I can't hire an industrial woodchipper and feed your models into it if you do so.

Jayne couldn't be stopped by a Reaver fleet.

Minigiant

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Re: Dwarf advice
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 02:38:26 PM »
To make a list i would

Thane
Runesmith

2x 20 Warriors
Full command

10 Thunderers

10 Miners

10 Slayers

Cannon

Organ Gun

You can work out the points then work from there

Offline Dark_Wolfen

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Re: Dwarf advice
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 04:37:48 PM »
I'm not that familiar with dwarves, but on my POV I agree with minigiant.

And as a tip, units of only 10 models are generally quite weak. Unless you have them as backup, I would say of atleast, but preferably 20 models.
And since I don't see those blocks on your list, that would be my first advice.

Minigiant

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Re: Dwarf advice
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 04:51:37 PM »
Write up alist properly use my outline if you want post it here then we will help from there, you cant ask people to write army lists for people as everyone plays differently

How many points do you want to play?
Competitive or friendly?
All rounder or deathstar?
Themed?

We cant answer these questions

Offline Grand Master SeaZan

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Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2011, 01:49:59 PM »
Nice to see someone else feels this way!  While I think Matt is a fail of an author, his dexes aren't that bad balance wise.

Actually the more I play my grey knights the more I see the weaknesses of the GK codex and the strengths of the Tau codex and the more I want to find my lost Tau and dust them off.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 01:53:31 PM by Grand Master SeaZan »

Offline Narric

Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2011, 01:55:10 PM »
His Fluff is good to read, and gives some interesting ideas for Conversions (in my case). And I regulalrly use the SMurf dex as a reference point for how a codex can be balanced (in conjunction with the Dark Eldar Codex).

Most of my Negativity towards the Codex is the simple reason of Space Marines being GWs favour'd child. Like Dark Eldar, they can do some much with the Tau, I just hope they have a competent writer for the project, and then we'll see those Powergaming GK players (not GK players in general, just the power gamers) how to kick dyi 8).

However, when I feel like getting my Power Armour on, its always gotta be Chaos (regardless of its flaws).

Offline Grand Master SeaZan

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Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2011, 02:01:24 PM »
Like Dark Eldar, they can do some much with the Tau, I just hope they have a competent writer for the project...

I'm hoping Phil Kelly writes the Tau dex.  I'd never play another army again. (maybe...)

Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2011, 02:37:05 PM »
Nice to see someone else feels this way!  While I think Matt is a fail of an author, his dexes aren't that bad balance wise.

Actually the more I play my grey knights the more I see the weaknesses of the GK codex and the strengths of the Tau codex and the more I want to find my lost Tau and dust them off.

Agreed, the GK aren't OP, but are definitely a different beast than before the Ward codex.  They are far more susceptible to those HQ's and other units that mess with Psykers and their cost for most things are fairly well balanced.  I only wish I could take some units optionally with Terminator armor instead of it being a default (Librarians in particular). 

Like Dark Eldar, they can do some much with the Tau, I just hope they have a competent writer for the project...
I'm hoping Phil Kelly writes the Tau dex.  I'd never play another army again. (maybe...)

Also agreed, while a Wardian codex would be fun to play, I think Kelly has a better mindset on how to handle a non-PA codex :P
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Offline loeldrad

Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2011, 03:06:50 PM »
I honestly haven't had anything against him until he touched my sisters... of battle!

Although I suppose I should wait and see what the next White Dwarf brings but based off the first half I don't have high hopes.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 03:39:40 PM by loeldrad »

Offline Dragonborn Seth

Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2011, 06:19:45 PM »
I dislike Matt Ward codices because of how they play. I think stupid rules are stupid regardless of how many points they may be. I think his books have gone from bad to worse with each issue and I can bring up several examples for each of your points, but I'm not sure you guys want to read a rant. :P

The fluff I don't mind since I honestly don't read much into 40k fluff. Most of it is absurd, regardless from author. Some more so than others, but whatever, I really don't buy a codex for the reading material. :P

 All I mind is the rules and I don't think he's any good at writing them. Cruddace is only mildly preferable. Kelly tends to do very well with rules for any unit besides Grey Hunters (:shifty:), and the rest of the authors which never write anything anymore tend to be too timid to make any of the units powerful (see ref: Daemons). I sincerely believe Ward is the worst of the bunch, though. I just can't stand the feel I get from his lists. The incredibly underpointed abilities in the Blood Angels and Grey Knights and Daemons of Chaos (Oh my lord, Daemons of Chaos...), and the really stupid design decision prevalent in the Space Marines book (Land Speeder Storms aren't dedicated?)

I'll go into more detail if you'd guys like, but for now I'll leave us here.

Offline Farseer Del

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Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2011, 09:11:52 PM »
They're bad for the game, because Ward is a hack.

Just look at his books. They're filled with needless padding, repetition, and overpowered nonsense for fluff and rules. The only way the fluff passes muster is to assume he is writing Imperial propaganda and it's exaggerated.

It's not they do everything, it's they do too much - Or too much the same. What is the operational difference between a Blood Angel and an Ultramarine? NONE. The BA book is arguably a better way to build a non-BA force than the Vanilla codex. Blood Angels has no valid reason to exist other than Marines = Money. Space Wolves and yes, GK, have the same problem. Meanwhile the one and only power armoured force not a Marine gets shafted.

They have weaknesses... specified ones that need special builds. The primary counter to such armies are armies of the same type.

Balance via Codex Creep has NEVER happened. There has been, in the history of 40k, one time where arguably things were balanced - the launch of 3rd edition up until a codex was released. Which codex this is varies, but Necrons normally wins the prize, ironically. Up to that point most forces were balanced enough, and Necrons, for their part, had balance in a way, but their main weaknesses were low numbers and phase out. The next codices added more and more power in the arms race.

Even looking at the current ones, there is creep. Marines are overpowered by IG, which in turn are overpowered by BA and GK, and arguably Space Wolves have their elements of OP.  Balance isn't about levelling the playing field over time, it's about being level from day one.

Contradicting of established fluff is bad, when there's not a valid reason. Ward never gives a reason. He shoehorns and retcons,  and makes it up. When you have a vast amount of background to work with, sudden changes without any real cause, cause chaos.

What he does with fluff has disturbing patterns. He often has the Avatar beaten handily. He kills Sisters of Battle. He throws in mary sue after mary sue.

And finally... He does ruin armies. Anything he touches turns terrible, and forces massive metagame changes. He incites rage amongst 40k players, and he has been the most visible cause of massive divide and anger in the veteran fanbase not caused by marketing moves.

Everything he writes hands over the Vanish/Doom glitch, the Javelin trick, and a whole heap of other barely hidden exploits and overpowered weapons for the savvy cheese merchant.

I won't link to it, but google for 1d4chan, Matt Ward. Some of it is RAEG but much of it is true, and explains why he's so hated.

What it all boils down to is, he is a classic case of Running the Asylum. He is a fanboy, pushing his agenda, making everyone else wrong. He tells us how awesome things are rather than showing us. He is basically saying that his way is right, and everything else is wrong. He is repetitive, predictable, and arrogant. His rules encourage the same traits amongst players, and he is the largest cause for 40k's rules degradation.


Offline loeldrad

Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2011, 09:24:59 PM »
Whats interesting about all that Kane is he co wrote the new SOB dex and from the half of it that's released in this months WD so far is it's far from overpowered. I suppose it's not a full blown codex considering its a 2 part WD release (and we've only seen part 1).. but It still shows inconsistency to the "Matt ward makes everything OP" viewpoint.

Offline Grand Master SeaZan

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Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2011, 09:32:07 PM »
...but It still shows inconsistency to the "Matt ward makes everything OP" viewpoint.

That's the one part of Kane's post I disagree with.  All the rest of the post is about how I feel.

Offline Dragonborn Seth

Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2011, 09:55:34 PM »
I don't think everything he writes is overpowered. I do think everything he writes is broken. And by broken I mean full of stupid rules, either useless or ridiculous or silly or what have you, and/or sucky. I mean, look at it this way: I consider the Space Marines codex broken. Why? Salamanders are exceptionally good. The rest of the Marine armies are less so. Scouts got a BS nerf that makes them pretty iffy as a unit and also makes no sense - why are IG Veterans now better shots than Scouts with decades of training? The Land Speeder Storm screams dedicated transport, it's only usable by a single unit in the entire codex! Not to mention the numerous rules issues that took ages before they were FAQed out.

Conversely, I consider Blood Angels overpowered. They're better than vanilla Marines in almost every single way. Their Assault Marines have far better Deep Striking and cost no more points. Their Devastators are cheaper (a change I'm happy to see but did they really have to make the change for a melee-focused Marine army? Couldn't it have waited until Dark Angels or something? ::) ). Their vehicles are Fast - more expensive, and sometimes substantially so, but in a lot of cases the extra points are extremely well-spent. Their Librarians have amazing psychic powers compared to the vanilla Marines.

Fantasy Daemons are overpowered. I really don't have to go into detail why.

Grey Knights are broken. They're hobbled by expensive points costs and ultimately will get plastered by shooty Marines like Salamanders and Space Wolves or other armies like IG. However, they're still full of absolutely absurd rules that don't need to exist no matter how many points they are. Psychostroke Grenades? Seriously, y'xa'uk you, Ward.

Sisters of Battle are apparently broken in the underpowered sense. I haven't looked at them much myself so I won't go into detail, you'll have to ask a more experience person about it.

In short, Ward just screws up whatever he touches as far as balance goes. Not overpower, no. Most all of his codices have overpowered elements but it has to be pretty universally overpowered to really dominate the competitive scene. The ones that don't end up with cheese of the year awards are pathetic shadows of their former selves, full of rules that just make one raise their eyebrow in confusion, wondering if their was any playtesting at all before the book went to print.

Offline Farseer Del

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Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2011, 11:25:09 PM »
Whats interesting about all that Kane is he co wrote the new SOB dex and from the half of it that's released in this months WD so far is it's far from overpowered. I suppose it's not a full blown codex considering its a 2 part WD release (and we've only seen part 1).. but It still shows inconsistency to the "Matt ward makes everything OP" viewpoint.
Well, I was actually unaware he was involved in any way with it to be honest. But in my partial defence it's not a full codex, and there was someone else there to stop him going too far apparently. It's telling that the first non-Marine thing he touches in 40k turns out to be a lemon, isn't it?

Besides, who knows what horrors lurk in part 2? I've not read the White Dwarf in question myself yet, but I'll try to obtain it soon-ish. Or wait on the PDF download from GW in three months :P Presumably he phoned SoB in, or a lot is copypasta with some edits here and there. I'll see when I can take a proper look.

I guess, though, I'll retract "everything Matt Ward writes is overpowered" and replace with "everything Matt Ward has an interest in that he writes is overpowered. If he doesn't care about the army you'll see it soon enough...

Offline The Man They Call Jayne

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Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2011, 06:37:07 AM »
The 1d4chan article does mention the Sister and Wards involvment. He apparently has a habit of using them for Whipping Boys? Going on the basis that anyone who doesn't worship Gulliman is scum, when it comes to the Templars, he won't do them many favors.
Ja'nus (E,TD) Farooq (E,UD) Ko'Rah (FTGG) Magnus (The Heresy) Wothan (Might and Magic) Sir (to the rest of you)

Jaynes Awesome Card Counter: +5


Everything is an ork weapon eventually.

Jayne is correct.

There's no rule in any rulebook saying that you can't do it.  But there's also no rule in print saying that I can't hire an industrial woodchipper and feed your models into it if you do so.

Jayne couldn't be stopped by a Reaver fleet.

Offline Matt1785

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Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2011, 07:06:55 AM »
To be honest, I didn't stat to hate Ward until I saw the Blood Angels Codex.  I couldn't swallow a character that gives out an aura of special rules because... well.. he has a stupid cup.  Other then that, facing any kind of Fast S10 template firing vehicle is just wretched.  Yeah, I read the Blood Angels book and the hate began.

When I heard he wrote the Grey Knight book my hatred was cemented... I didn't even have to see the book to be angry with it, because they were my first 40K army and I had waited a long time to get a new book.. and to have it tainted by Ward was very upsetting.

In friendly games I have not lost a single match with the new Grey Knights, but in Tournaments, I see their weaknesses.  I personally do not run an ultra competitive build, having focused more on a deep striking force, but still, even when I play I feel bad for my opponent, there are far too many silly rules they have... "Did I mention that because I have a different weapon, I swing a lot faster then you?"  What?

Offline Watchdog

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Re: Matt Ward Hate - Why So Serious?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2011, 08:02:49 AM »
The 5th Edition codices written by Matt Ward and the builds they resulted in at tournaments are the reason I practically quit Wh40k.

Last tournament was so unfun to play at gainst BA FNP Assault Marines spam and such, even though the opponents were actually very good, that I simply stopped after it and thought: "Am I really having fun at tournaments anymore?" The answer was a plain and simple: "No."

I am simply not having fun with my Tau anymore, thanks to the last few codices and what they allow on the battlefield and in what numbers. I enjoy a challenge, but not games of three hours of frustration because the result is set even before any models are deployed.
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