Author Topic: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme  (Read 16 times)

CyberPhoenix

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Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« on: October 24, 2009, 01:12:37 PM »
I'm questioning whether or not to quit the hobby all together, after an incident with the second Shas'O R'Myr I purchased from Forge World. I'm also questioning my current paint scheme (black, silver and ice blue).

I did an experiment on the Tau painter on the B&CS website, and used Foundation Paint colours for a Sa'Cea Sept in place of the standard GW paints. I liked the look of it actually. A picture and what would be used is at the end of this post.

Tell me what you think of it. By the way...

1) Do Foundation Paints still need to be thinned?
2) Is it true that actual paint thinner agents do a better job of thinning paint than water does?


Anubis

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2009, 02:02:01 PM »
the grey and blue areas clash too much. There is not enough contrast.

CyberPhoenix

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2009, 02:36:02 PM »
the grey and blue areas clash too much. There is not enough contrast.

What if the cloth (Adeptus Battlegrey) was left Chaos Black?

Anubis

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2009, 02:49:54 PM »
That would work :)

CyberPhoenix

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 12:36:40 AM »
That would work :)

Excellent. Cloth will be left Chaos Black then. I also thought of having the entire gun in Boltgun Metal.

Now, about those questions...!

Anubis

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 12:57:19 AM »
oh missed those.
yes foundation paints need to be thinned.
they can cope with a lot more thinning actually. it is still better to paint two thin coats of foundation than one imo
or mix one coat with the midtone colour
but i always thin my paints.
never used thinner, it costs more than water and ive never had an issue with water.. so...
most pros use water

Sidstyler

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2009, 01:41:11 AM »
I won't tell you to "never use" thinning agents or other artist mediums...they do cost more than water obviously, but some things are damn useful depending on what you want to do.

Flow improver is good I've found (don't add too much, it turns the paint into a wash instead), I use a drop of that instead of plain water now and the last fire warrior I painted looked pretty good...paint was still think in spots since I don't apply multiple thin coats like I should, but overall I think it looks better than my past attempts: there weren't any obvious brush strokes at least (the only reason I used it is because I was told it would reduce brush strokes), which made me pretty happy. Drying retarder is invaluable if you do blending, extending your working time to minutes instead of seconds with just a drop. And there are others that I don't really know anything about...

I'd look at http://www.awesomepaintjob.com. LBursley uses a lot of these mediums and they're listed in his tools section, along with links to websites where you can buy them at a discount. They look pricey at first but you get a lot for your money, really, so it's not that bad.

Anyway, I like the codex Sa'cea scheme, blue Tau look really good. I'd say go for it, I was going to do that scheme myself but changed my mind at the last minute...I change my mind a lot...

CyberPhoenix

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2009, 02:21:07 AM »
Spending money on thinning agent might be a bit overkill, I suppose. But brush strokes are a *****, I agree.

My first idea for a paint scheme would have been something like this:

- Prime in Chaos Black.
- Cover the model in Silver spray paint.
- Re-black the areas of the model that should be black, like the hands, cloth, etc.
- Use Enchanted Blue, Ice Blue, and Skull White on the optics for a gem effect.

It is still a toss up between this, and the new Sa'Cea sept I posted about.

Anubis

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 03:04:00 AM »
If you get the paint to the consistency of skimmed milk using water you will find it flows perfectly from any decent sable brush.
Artist mediums are ofc just as viable, I just don't see the point in spending money on things you can essentially get for more or less nothing.
But maybe you should try them if you are having trouble just using water... you might find they really make a difference for you, in which case there is nothing wrong with that.
The thing to remember is that if you can see the undercoat a little through the coat you are applying it is no bad thing. Just wait for it to dry and apply another coat until it gives you a good even coat. This will also help remove 'brushstrokes'. Of course in some situations, strokes can work, it depends on your style. Patience is the key, and persistence will get you everywhere when it comes to painting.
I do blend a lot with my style of painting, but I just work quickly when I do it, otherwise your paint will dry up. But then this can be resolved by using a decent palate that has no absorbent qualities.

- Cover the model in Silver spray paint.
Why would you do that?

Okay. My method would be as following:

- Black undercoat sprayed on. (make sure you do it about 30 cm away and in short bursts so to get thin coats rather than have it pool in areas). Now most of your model has black parts, so you use this as your basis for working up... doing a silver layer would be pointless.
- Paint the gun boltgun metal mixed with chaos black. (or just silver then wash heavily with badab black).
- Block out the armour plates with the blue you want as the mid-tone
- Highlight the black areas with a grey (dark then light in two thin respective coats)
- Wash the blue armour with badab black
- Re-layer the original midtone blue but avoid the crevasses in the armour etc. So only the raised areas
- Add bleached bone to the blue (about 70-30) and fine edge highlight the armour
- Do a further highlight of 50-50 mix and only apply it to the very highest raised areas and corners.
- Mix boltgun metal with mithril silver 50-50 and highlight the gun (avoiding getting any in the recesses)
- Fine edge the gun with mithril silver
- Use what ever colours you wish to pick out the details.

This will give you a very effective paint scheme and look good.
You don't have to do the 2nd highlights, but I think they are always worth the effort. GW minis aren't cheap and for me it's always worth putting extra effort into them ;)

Hope this helps you out anyway. Let me know how you get on regardless ;D

Sidstyler

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 03:22:42 AM »
Actually, I've seen a guy do that before, except the silver wasn't for his paint scheme. He painted over it in his army colors, and then to create weathering he rubbed off certain spots with steel wool or something to reveal the silver paint beneath. Looked really good, he got featured on the GW site, he was at a GT or something.

Anubis

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 04:05:39 AM »
but your adding a phase that is just really not required. if you want to weather it, there are much simpler and paint saving techniques.
plus painting flat colour over metallic is harder to do and not have anything show through...
Why use extra paint to clog up your details?

Sidstyler

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 04:12:14 AM »
I don't really know why he did it that way myself.

CyberPhoenix

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2009, 04:50:50 AM »
I haven't used silver spray paint at all. It was just and idea to speed things up. Could always cover the non-metal areas with something to prevent them becoming silver, but I'm thinking that wouldn't be worth it.

The second troop of Fire Warriors I owned was done with the original scheme (dubbed T-X because of the inspiration from T3:RotM). With them, I just dry-brushed the Mithril Silver on. Got through the whole troop in somewhere over an hour I think. Touched up the Chaos Black, did the EB/IB mix in certain parts, and I was done. A fairly basic job, but the end result was very good.

http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14605&p=181627#p181627
This person over on ATT dry-brushed his Fire Warriors, and I personally think they look alright.

In the end, I'm not looking to win any Golden Demon awards. I just want a good looking army to play with. If it wasn't for my second Shas'O R'Myr ****ing up, I'd still feel this way and wouldn't be considering quitting the hobby.

EDIT: I may end up sticking with the "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme I came up with. I tested it earlier on a Fire Warrior I have, and it turned out quite good.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 08:24:16 AM by CyberPhoenix »

Anubis

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2009, 03:16:33 PM »
Considering the amount of black areas you have, using the silver stage is going to slow you down substantially.
Isn't the only metal area your gun? Seems a little drastic to spray the whole model.

This person over on ATT dry-brushed his Fire Warriors, and I personally think they look alright.

I think they look pretty sub-standard. But thats opinion for you ;)

In the end, I'm not looking to win any Golden Demon awards.
That's not the point. The idea is this will get you painting better and quickly at that.
You may find yourself improving drastically if you try aim higher.

CyberPhoenix

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2009, 04:13:31 PM »
Aim high! Good advice, thanks man!

After some consideration, I'm going the way of the Sa'Cea Sept. Foundation Paints are awesome, and many thanks to my mate for buying me Fenris Grey on my recent 25th b'day!

I just saw pics of Tael's (the guy who owns the Eastern Empire site) Urban Tau, and they are very well done. I'll aim for something like this.

I'll keep my current silver Tau army for now, but they will get phased out as I buy more models and paint those in my new scheme. In the end, most of my army will look like the Fire Warrior pic in my first post, only the soft-armour will be Chaos Black, not Adeptus Battlegrey.

And when I said alright to that guy's dry-brushed Tau, I didn't mean they were uber-spectacular.

Sidstyler

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2009, 08:42:40 PM »
Yeah, I'm pretty much ripping off Tael's urban scheme...I hate that I have to do a 50/50 mix to get that grey, though. I might do green lenses for mine, I painted a test model with red lenses and I think it would look better in green.

Anubis

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2009, 09:00:27 PM »
Good stuff :D

CyberPhoenix

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2009, 01:22:20 AM »
It's official then. The Urban scheme using Foundation paint stays.

Are there any pics of how Kroot and Vespid look with Sa'Cea, and if possible what paints are used?

Sidstyler

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2009, 01:25:50 AM »
I don't think so. Kroot skin can change color if I recall correctly, so you could paint them to suit yourself, and Vespid would probably wear the same armor as the rest of the cadre.

CyberPhoenix

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2009, 01:44:55 AM »
Good to know about the Kroot. It will allow me to experiment further with Foundation paints.

What are Vallejo paints like? Are they similar to how GW Foundation paint works?

Anubis

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2009, 03:36:48 AM »
they are similar to GWs normal paints.
they do inks similar to the washes etc
im not sure if they do foundation tho.
Many people I know swear by them (they are cheaper for one) but I myself have never used them. I cannot see them being any worse really.
Although many people say the GW metallic paints are better...

CyberPhoenix

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2009, 05:30:39 AM »
What about Privateer Press paints - any opinions/experiences with them?

EDIT: What colours would go together well with Hormagaunt Purple? I was thinking maybe Tentacle Pink would. This is just an idea for my future Vespid units.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 05:32:40 AM by CyberPhoenix »

Sidstyler

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2009, 06:26:09 AM »
I heard P3 paints weren't that great, actually. A lot of people give props to the Vallejo and Reaper paints, though it's true that Citadel metallics are probably the best (and the foundations/washes are great).

I love Vallejo simply because the dropper bottle design is much better than GW's paint pots, though you have to give Vallejo paints a good shaking because they separate easily. Vallejo also has close matches to the Citadel paints in their Game Color range (they have similar names, some are pretty damn obvious).

CyberPhoenix

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Re: Opinion on "Foundation" Sa'Cea scheme
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2009, 11:28:44 PM »
Cheers guys, for all your help recently.

My goal is clear now: I'll use the Foundation Paints to create my Sa'Cea scheme. The FW I prototyped with Fenris Grey turned out great, so I plan to slowly phase out my silver scheme now. I'll buy the whole set of Foundation Paints, a few standard paints (Blazing or Fiery Orange in particular) and some new tools. Then I'll be ready to create a whole new army.

I can only imagine how long it would take to paint Fenris Grey all over a Tau Manta! I've seen a real-to-life shot and the thing is HUGE!

Offline The Allfather

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"Dreadfleet" Has arrived!
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2011, 11:03:55 PM »
No, it's not Man 'o War. Get ready for some hot Pirate-on-Pirate action on the high seas!

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440146a&prodId=prod1350015a


I won't be bothering with it, as I don't have the same sort of disposable income I used to :P but the ships do look pretty cool. I especially like the Dwarf and Skaven ships.

Thoughts?

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Re: "Dreadfleet" Has arrived!
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2011, 12:00:31 AM »
Hmm, well it's quite anticipated at our store, but then again the popularity of small specialist games as a whole is beginning to rival Warhammer 40k and Fantasy. We're probably looking at three boxes worth of minis and cards being put together for bigger games.

I have to agree with Khanaris, this is a one-time buy for a completely self-contained game. Doesn't look like they'll have any expansions or new models at all unless it gains that much popularity. I'm going to make my own fleet of ships after the store gets their copy, so I'm not buying anything for now.
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Re: "Dreadfleet" Has arrived!
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2011, 10:19:36 AM »
It looks like a really fun board game, but It's out of my current budget range. I'd love to paint and build those shops though.
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Re: "Dreadfleet" Has arrived!
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2011, 07:01:48 PM »
Spoke to one of the guys who helped playtest it and he's certain there will be no expansions or suchlike. So very much like space hulk in that sense.

It doesn't appeal to me as a painter, not much out of the ordinary to be done with those ships, aside from some freehand on the sails.

But im assured the rules are fast paced enough and its a good "beer and pretzels" game which many gamers will enjoy, while giving you an excuse to shamelessly speak in funny pirate accents, listen to Alestorm and Captain Dan and the Scurvy Crew and drink rum ;D

Whats more Matt Ward didnt write the rules? And John Blanche produced lots of new artwork for this release. So lets get a HUZZAR! for Dreadfleet  :P

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Re: "Dreadfleet" Has arrived!
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2011, 10:00:34 AM »
I wanted to wait until I could see one for my self until I would conclude that a lot of the weirder ships are the fairdinkum aesthetic devil's sick of sin but now I have it and actually look at what's in there I would have to say that most of the vessels looks like implausible fairdinkum aesthetic devil's sick of sin. God, the Tomb knights thing  is just hard to get a metal image on, both the dwarf vessels should be burnt with fire, the vampire thing doesn't make sense and a boat and the Skaven thing - I mean - why?

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Re: "Dreadfleet" Has arrived!
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2011, 09:30:10 AM »
I'm still waiting on mine.  It's somewhere in recently left Germany according to DHL...   :'(
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 10:12:32 AM by Masked Thespian »
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Re: "Dreadfleet" Has arrived!
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2011, 09:23:00 AM »
Got it, unboxed it, put some ships together and played. Bloody hectic, yet still gloriously fun. It also upholds Man O' War's fine tradition of needing a separate table for all your cards and such. :P
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Re: "Dreadfleet" Has arrived!
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2011, 06:12:06 AM »
Whee!  It's here!  Can't open it now, though, since I've got to go to work (boo!) but I'll be giving it a quick once over tonight.
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