Author Topic: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex  (Read 25 times)

Offline Finn

Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« on: November 21, 2009, 07:01:44 AM »
Okay, so I was challenge to make an outdated Codex balanced for the 5th Edition doing nothing more than tweaking the cost-point, wargears and special rules. Maybe fit in a few new units that aren't that retarded~ish. Something that exists amongst the FW and maybe old Chapter Approved stuff. Of course, as the self-proclaimed Project Manager, I get to veto on any matter but I will study it first before I reject any ideas even if I study it for a second. So for my first few ideas:

1) Frag and Krak Grenades for everybody; I can't stress enough on how friggin' important this is
2) All Grey Knights are able to Deep-Strike
3) Shrouding Rule will work like Night-Fighting
4) Dreadnoughts shall be in the Elite slot
5) Overall drop in cost-points unless we add new toys and new special rules for the said unit
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Offline Arnorath

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2009, 10:54:06 AM »
Sounds like a plan, Zenai.  Personally i think the DH 'dex needs more than a tweak - an old-style reshuffling and a hefty dose of new material (without straying beyond acceptable limits, of course) are in order, i think.

as for your initial suggestions:


1) Frag and Krak Grenades for everybody
2) All Grey Knights are able to Deep-Strike
3) Shrouding Rule will work like Night-Fighting

I agree - grenades are standard for other marines, so it stands to reason the Grey Knights would have them too.  As for deepstrike, it's very much in their character as an army, but i am reluctant to have the DH become another addition to the list of 5th-ed all-drop armies like Daemons and certain marine lists.  They need something special - like a first-turn post-deepstrike shooting attack, or something.

5) Overall drop in cost-points unless we add new toys and new special rules for the said unit

I agree also, if only because the DH need to keep on top of the 'codex creep' as much as any other army.  I for one am in favour of the old tradition of adding specific drawbacks to units - a flavourful way to balance their effectiveness without simply raising their points cost, which sadly seems to have been abandoned in 5th ed (coughcough space marines codex coughcough). 

Suggestion - when grey knights are present, the enemy gets x points worth of free lesser Daemons.  This is drawing on the old rule that grants enemy Daemons 'Without Number', in that it balances the Grey Knights' anti-Daemon effectiveness without raising their cost, which would leave them at a disadvantage against non-Daenonic armies.
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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2009, 11:45:08 AM »
1) Frag and Krak Grenades for everybody; I can't stress enough on how friggin' important this is

I disagree.  To begin with, Grey Knights don't need Krak Grenades as they're better off in melee against vehicles with their Nemesis Force Weapons (assuming you don't do anything to those).  Also, Frag Grenades, outside of their ignore-terrain-Initiative-modifier rule are also useless for the same reason.  Since the aforementioned ITIM is about the only real rule you need, I don't think that giving them Frags is a good idea but giving them an equivalent rule would be.  Perhaps something along the lines of "Grey Knights always attack at their given Initiative value, ignoring the effect of assaulting through terrain or enemy abilities."  This could be justified as a Warlock-style psychic power (I.e. no Psychic test required) as a result of their gestalt psychic ability.

Stormtroopers, on the other hand, are line units rather than the elites we see in Guard armies.  Whilst I would like to see a points reduction but leaving in the option to purchase either/both, I can't justify it compared to the other 5th Edition codexes.


2) All Grey Knights are able to Deep-Strike

If you were to do this, you need to consider the potential abuses of such a system.  Do you keep Power Armoured Grey Knights them as Troops choices and thus give the player the option to have an entirely Deep Striking army (including his scoring units)?  Do you assign them only to Fast Attack?  Should they get an equivalent ability to Drop Pod/Daemonic/Deathwing Assault?

For me, I would consider granting the option to make the entire army Deep Striking, as I've never enjoyed the idea of having Grey Knights on the ground before the game (in terms of the background more than the rules).  Thus, I would suggest allowing PAGK in your Troops slot to Deep Strike.  However, to balance this, I would suggest that PAGK in your Fast Attack slot get a special rule to balance the fact they are not scoring.  Due to allowing the same unit in different slots, I would suggest this NOT be an equivalent of DP/D/D Assault, but perhaps an ability equivalent to Heroic Intervention (I.e. allowing FA PAGK to assault on the turn they Deep Strike in).


3) Shrouding Rule will work like Night-Fighting

Fair enough.  Will things like Night Vision/Acute Senses, Blacksun Filters and Searchlights have an effect?  I know it seems silly to ask such a question, but you know there are some people who will poke a hole in such a reasoning if you don't nip it in the bud.


4) Dreadnoughts shall be in the Elite slot

I don't see too much of a reason to do this, other than "that's how it is in every other Marine Codex."  Grey Knight Dreadnoughts generally get used in a support role, with two ranged weapons rather than a DCCW and making use of their higher WS.  Also, by making them Elites you're eating into the amount of GKTerminator units you can take but increasing the amount of Land Raiders you can take instead.  It's an interesting dichotomy that would need to be looked at carefully, particularly with what you do with the Dreadnought entry and options itself, before you change the force organisation slot.


5) Overall drop in cost-points unless we add new toys and new special rules for the said unit

Well, that's pretty much a given.


The biggest issue I can see, within the limitations you've been given, is that any new Inquisition Codex would NEED to replicate any 'inducted/allied' entries, since GW has stated that they don't want players using more than one Codex for an army, and thus allies rules go out the window.  You can't refer to Codex: Imperial Guard or Codex: Space Marines so you'll need to add new units representing 'inducted/allied' units.
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Offline Finn

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2009, 03:57:13 PM »
I agree - grenades are standard for other marines, so it stands to reason the Grey Knights would have them too.  As for deepstrike, it's very much in their character as an army, but i am reluctant to have the DH become another addition to the list of 5th-ed all-drop armies like Daemons and certain marine lists.  They need something special - like a first-turn post-deepstrike shooting attack, or something.
If you were to do this, you need to consider the potential abuses of such a system.  Do you keep Power Armoured Grey Knights them as Troops choices and thus give the player the option to have an entirely Deep Striking army (including his scoring units)?  Do you assign them only to Fast Attack?  Should they get an equivalent ability to Drop Pod/Daemonic/Deathwing Assault?

For me, I would consider granting the option to make the entire army Deep Striking, as I've never enjoyed the idea of having Grey Knights on the ground before the game (in terms of the background more than the rules).  Thus, I would suggest allowing PAGK in your Troops slot to Deep Strike.  However, to balance this, I would suggest that PAGK in your Fast Attack slot get a special rule to balance the fact they are not scoring.  Due to allowing the same unit in different slots, I would suggest this NOT be an equivalent of DP/D/D Assault, but perhaps an ability equivalent to Heroic Intervention (I.e. allowing FA PAGK to assault on the turn they Deep Strike in).
Good points, both of you. I was going for that they MUST Deep-strike; half (rounding up) shall come out of Reserves by means of Deep-Striking while the rest will come via preceding turns ala rolling whether they come of Reserves if they make the rolls. Like Deathwing Assault but we be calling it Grey Knight Assault. I dunno it is acceptable to give Grey Knights Drop Pod or Rhinos. There's so little fluff on such deployment and their delivery system. That's why I thought make them all Deep-strike as per their specialty that I have read so far in their fluff. As for the FA PAGK, wanna give them Jump Pack + Heroic Intervention? :P Just an idea; you may tear it up and throw it away.

I disagree.  To begin with, Grey Knights don't need Krak Grenades as they're better off in melee against vehicles with their Nemesis Force Weapons (assuming you don't do anything to those).  Also, Frag Grenades, outside of their ignore-terrain-Initiative-modifier rule are also useless for the same reason.  Since the aforementioned ITIM is about the only real rule you need, I don't think that giving them Frags is a good idea but giving them an equivalent rule would be.  Perhaps something along the lines of "Grey Knights always attack at their given Initiative value, ignoring the effect of assaulting through terrain or enemy abilities."  This could be justified as a Warlock-style psychic power (I.e. no Psychic test required) as a result of their gestalt psychic ability.
Giving them Frag Grenades would just make things sooooooooooooo much easier IMHO. The Krak Grenades as for those Grey Knights that eschew their Nemesis Force Weapons and Storm Bolter for Special/Heavy Weapons.

I agree also, if only because the DH need to keep on top of the 'codex creep' as much as any other army.  I for one am in favour of the old tradition of adding specific drawbacks to units - a flavourful way to balance their effectiveness without simply raising their points cost, which sadly seems to have been abandoned in 5th ed (coughcough space marines codex coughcough). 

Suggestion - when grey knights are present, the enemy gets x points worth of free lesser Daemons.  This is drawing on the old rule that grants enemy Daemons 'Without Number', in that it balances the Grey Knights' anti-Daemon effectiveness without raising their cost, which would leave them at a disadvantage against non-Daenonic armies.
I've decided to redo the entire "We're good against Daemons so we have these Special Rules..." Special Rules. Trying to go by RAW; these Special Rules should affect anything from the Chaos Space Marine and Chaos Daemon Codices. I thought I make them "almost free" since the Special Rules itself can only affect a narrow margin of the 40K armies but I feel we're going to need to discuss this extensively.

Quote
Fair enough.  Will things like Night Vision/Acute Senses, Blacksun Filters and Searchlights have an effect?  I know it seems silly to ask such a question, but you know there are some people who will poke a hole in such a reasoning if you don't nip it in the bud.
I don't think its a silly matter. On the contrary, it's a serious matter especially when it comes to RAW. Aye, I want it be as RAW-friendly as possible while being RAI-friendly as well. I will first read through the profile for the Searchlight, Acute Senses/Night Vision USR as well as Blacksun Filter to see how they work first before I write up the rules for Shrouding. Honestly, I don't think those things work especially when it's a de-facto Psychic-base defense. Again, another matter to discuss extensively.

Quote
I don't see too much of a reason to do this, other than "that's how it is in every other Marine Codex."  Grey Knight Dreadnoughts generally get used in a support role, with two ranged weapons rather than a DCCW and making use of their higher WS.  Also, by making them Elites you're eating into the amount of GKTerminator units you can take but increasing the amount of Land Raiders you can take instead.  It's an interesting dichotomy that would need to be looked at carefully, particularly with what you do with the Dreadnought entry and options itself, before you change the force organisation slot.
True; maybe a Venerable Dreadnought and "normal" Dreadnought for the Elite slot while we have a Mortis-like (IIRC it's the Dark Angels double Twin-Linked Autocannon-armed Dreadnought) Dreadnought for the Heavy Slot. Yet, another matter to discuss.

Quote
The biggest issue I can see, within the limitations you've been given, is that any new Inquisition Codex would NEED to replicate any 'inducted/allied' entries, since GW has stated that they don't want players using more than one Codex for an army, and thus allies rules go out the window.  You can't refer to Codex: Imperial Guard or Codex: Space Marines so you'll need to add new units representing 'inducted/allied' units.
Much agreed upon :)

Anyway, I've thought over it for awhile and chills me to the bone if we were to use the current IG's Storm Trooper to be placed as Inquisitional Storm Troopers. That makes our Troop Choices 20+ point each. We're going need a cheap troop choice. There's also that matter of Assassins, none of the 5th Edition Codex I've seen put limitations on any unit. I can't imagine playing 3 Assassins will get me friends. So, I thought Assassins don't take up any slot but the player must take an Inquisitor Lord for every Assassin. What do you think on the matter?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 04:46:34 PM by Zenai »
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Offline Masked Thespian

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2009, 05:56:35 PM »
Good points, both of you. I was going for that they MUST Deep-strike; half (rounding up) shall come out of Reserves by means of Deep-Striking while the rest will come via preceding turns ala rolling whether they come of Reserves if they make the rolls. Like Deathwing Assault but we be calling it Grey Knight Assault. I dunno it is acceptable to give Grey Knights Drop Pod or Rhinos. There's so little fluff on such deployment and their delivery system. That's why I thought make them all Deep-strike as per their specialty that I have read so far in their fluff. As for the FA PAGK, wanna give them Jump Pack + Heroic Intervention? :P Just an idea; you may tear it up and throw it away.

I am loathe to give Grey Knights a rule akin to DP/D/D Assault, simply because those three armies already get it.  Yes it fits, and reduces the waiting and randomness, but it's replicating rules already found in Marine codexes (for two out of three, at least).  I do have an idea on the matter, though, but I will go into more detail on that further on.

Do NOT give Grey Knights Drop Pods or Rhinos.  Just don't.  I have an idea to improve their mobility, but I'll detail that later on.  And definitely don't give them Jump Packs.

To be honest, I dislike the idea of PAGK; my idea of Grey Knights comes from 2nd Edition where all you had were Terminators and they were absolutely rock hard.  However, I am willing to accept that PAGK are currently available and to create a new codex without them would annoy an awful lot of players.  Ergo, PAGK have to stay.


Giving them Frag Grenades would just make things sooooooooooooo much easier IMHO. The Krak Grenades as for those Grey Knights that eschew their Nemesis Force Weapons and Storm Bolter for Special/Heavy Weapons.

I can't deny that giving them Frags makes things so much easier, but we've seen an instance of where a model has an ability that grants the unit the equivalent; Eldar Harlequin Shadowseers have Hallucinogen Grenades that grant the unit Plasma Grenades.  Therefore, there's no reason you couldn't give the Grey Knights an 'equivalent of Frags' ability or psychic power, like I suggested previously.

The other thing is that I like the idea of Grey Knights being so badass that they don't need the mundane equipment that 'regular' Space Marines use (even if they replicate the ability with a psychic power).  This goes especially for Krak Grenades; you have a weapon that grants you the ability to destroy a Dreadnought in melee, so if you choose to give it up to tote a better ranged weapon then it's your own fault for doing so.  Giving PAGK Krak Grenades makes taking Special weapons a no-brainer choice, since you still get the Strength against vehicles.


I've decided to redo the entire "We're good against Daemons so we have these Special Rules..." Special Rules. Trying to go by RAW; these Special Rules should affect anything from the Chaos Space Marine and Chaos Daemon Codices. I thought I make them "almost free" since the Special Rules itself can only affect a narrow margin of the 40K armies but I feel we're going to need to discuss this extensively.

The thing is that Daemonhunters, or Grey Knights at least, should only be fielded against Daemons.  There is no real reason why Grey Knights should face something non-Daemonic (unless it's because it's in the same army as the Daemonic enemy but in the way).  Personally, I would like to see the Adversaries section become compulsory, but the enemy's Daemons be free of charge and models provided by the Daemonhunter player (assuming the other player doesn't have his own models he wants to use).  That way you will ONLY see Grey Knights when the enemy has Daemons, which is pretty much as it is given in the background.

With that in mind, I would suggest that the rule akin to "Grey Knight Assault" basically mean that Grey Knights held in reserve may not enter play until any enemy Daemons do, but at that point they AUTOMATICALLY enter play (or give them a staggered, yet non-random, deployment like in Apocalypse; up to half may come on the turn after the Daemons enter play and the rest must come on the turn after that).  Since the enemy always has Daemons, the Grey Knight player will always enter play at a reasonable time.

For mobility, I would like to see the ability to be removed from play and teleported across the battlefield.  Grey Knights are known for their Teleportation prowess and I think that would be an interesting way to improve their mobility without giving them Transports.  Whether we do this in a similar manner to the Eldar Skyleap (removed from play and put back into Reserve) or the Necron Veil of Darkness (instantly redeploy via Deep Strike) would need to be discussed.


I don't think its a silly matter. On the contrary, it's a serious matter especially when it comes to RAW. Aye, I want it be as RAW-friendly as possible while being RAI-friendly as well. I will first read through the profile for the Searchlight, Acute Senses/Night Vision USR as well as Blacksun Filter to see how they work first before I write up the rules for Shrouding. Honestly, I don't think those things work especially when it's a de-facto Psychic-base defense. Again, another matter to discuss extensively.

To be honest, Shrouding, as it currently exists in the background, should NOT be affected by any of the aforementioned abilities or wargear.  It is somewhat akin to the Eldar Shadowseer's Veil of Tears (though far less effective).

Perhaps you could allow any Psyker, or unit with a Psyker attached to it, to reroll the result for Shrouding (representing the Psyker in a battle of wills with the Grey Knights to pinpoint their position)?  That way it's a similar situation for Night Fighting in so much as almost every army has something to help them in that manner, even if it's not the same thing to help them out for both.


True; maybe a Venerable Dreadnought and "normal" Dreadnought for the Elite slot while we have a Mortis-like (IIRC it's the Dark Angels double Twin-Linked Autocannon-armed Dreadnought) Dreadnought for the Heavy Slot. Yet, another matter to discuss.

I'm fully aware of the Mortis Dreadnought.  To be honest, though, it's a case of what Daemonhunter players have done with Dreadnoughts on the tabletop more than what their background suggests, as they're the only real long-range shooting, in particular anti-tank, that a pure Grey Knight army can include.  There is little given background for Grey Knight Dreadnoughts and I cannot see any real reason why they should favour one over the other (shooting vs. melee, I mean).

If anything, I would suggest that Grey Knight Dreadnoughts, in a similar manner to how a regular Grey Knight has a Storm Bolter and Nemesis Force Weapon, should be forced to wield a DCCW and a ranged weapon, as this gives them a thematic tie in with their smaller brethren.  At that point, however, the question of where to situate them in the FOC is still open for debate.

The other thing to bear in mind is that would a Venerable Grey Knight Dreadnought have WS 6?


Anyway, I've thought over it for awhile and chills me to the bone if we were to use the current IG's Storm Trooper to be placed as Inquisitional Storm Troopers. That makes our Troop Choices 20+ point each. We're going need a cheap troop choice.

I agree.  There is no way you can include the current IG Stormtroopers as Troops.  As they stand, the current Stormtrooper entry is fine, though I would consider dropping the points costs by up to 2 per model, including Frags and Kraks as standard (with no option to upgrade to Melta Bombs except for the Veteran), and forcing you to take 10 models to get a second Special Weapon.  I would also consider renaming them so there is no confusion between an Imperial Guard Stormtrooper and an Inquisitional "something", even if you continue to use the same models.


There's also that matter of Assassins, none of the 5th Edition Codex I've seen put limitations on any unit. I can't imagine playing 3 Assassins will get me friends. So, I thought Assassins don't take up any slot but the player must take an Inquisitor Lord for every Assassin. What do you think on the matter?

Assassins need fixing on so many levels it's tempting to just remove them from the Codex completely.  I do like your idea of "one per Inquisitor Lord", in a similar way to Imperial Guard Advisers (but obviously detached from the retinue).  In fact...  you could even make Death Cultists Retinue members, so rather than being a poor-man's Eversor they could be used to give Inquisitors more of a bite in melee (something sorely needed right now, IMHO).

As for the temple assassins, they would need a major overhaul in terms of rules.  Not sure how to do that without them being too overpowered, but the removal of Allies rules will help a lot (as suddenly they don't become available to all and sundry within the Imperium, and thus capable of teaming up with the worst parts of the other Imperial army lists).  I also think that unique stat-lines for each of the assassin types would help distinguish between them (such as BS 8-10 for the Vindicare).
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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2009, 07:07:30 PM »
Not really up on Grey Knights, but im guessing that shrouding is like A Tau Stealth Generator? or night sight rules? 2d6x3? if so? would the Markerlight Night Sighting rules affect it? if a markerlight sees you, can another unit fire at it without rolling to see?

seeing as im the one who set the challenge in the first place i suppose i should try and constructivly find loopholes to poke at, just to make sure.

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2009, 07:22:02 PM »
Not really up on Grey Knights, but im guessing that shrouding is like A Tau Stealth Generator? or night sight rules? 2d6x3? if so? would the Markerlight Night Sighting rules affect it? if a markerlight sees you, can another unit fire at it without rolling to see?

seeing as im the one who set the challenge in the first place i suppose i should try and constructivly find loopholes to poke at, just to make sure.

Shrouding works in a near identical manner to Night Fighting, except that the multiplier is greater (the average roll to spot Grey Knights is 35" as opposed to 21" for Night Fighting).  In previous editions of the game (3rd and perhaps 4th), Night Vision/Acute Senses DID work against Shrouding (as apparently things like Space Wolves can 'smell the incense' - worst 'background' excuse for a rules ruling I've ever heard) but currently they don't (and shouldn't).

In my personal opinion, a Markerlight hit shouldn't grant the ability to target Grey Knights like this; the Shrouding is supposed to be a psychic effect preventing the Grey Knights from registering in the shooter's mind as opposed to being a physical effect (like lack of light).  Hence why I suggested that Psykers be used to allow rerolls to 'spot' Grey Knights.
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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2009, 08:04:26 PM »
if its a psychic thing, then once the markerlight hits it wont be affecting the targetting systems of other tau units would it? they are in no way psychic, and rely on receiving a signal that they can see.

so if the marker is not to have an effect the rule should be written accordingly.
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Jayne is correct.

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2009, 09:32:19 PM »
if its a psychic thing, then once the markerlight hits it wont be affecting the targetting systems of other tau units would it? they are in no way psychic, and rely on receiving a signal that they can see.

so if the marker is not to have an effect the rule should be written accordingly.

As I've mentioned previously, in other threads, my opinion on certain psychic powers that affect the mind (such as Veil of Tears and the Shrouding) is that they could be so powerful and insidious that they prevent the users of such equipment from realising that such equipment has a lock-on.

And I did previously mention in this thread that I wanted things that affect Night Fighting to NOT affect the Shrouding and vice versa.
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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2009, 10:17:03 PM »
fair enough, just wanted to make sure i understood. seeing as the average spotting distance is so high its not broken so im cool with it. do you intend to keep the current spotting system or change it?
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Jayne is correct.

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2009, 11:12:34 PM »
I have probably played over three dozen games with Grey Knights and not once has an opponent failed to spot them.  When you consider that the average killing range of the average Grey Knight is 30" (6" move + 24" Storm Bolter), having an average of 35" to spot them means that to have a greater than even chance on spotting you need to be outside your maximum killing range (though you'd be within 1 inch if you're a Purgation Squad armed with multiple Psycannons).

I would dearly love to see the range reduced.  Not to the degree of Veil of Tears (which is, quite frankly, a little bit silly), but giving them the equivalent range of Night Fighting would probably be a good start.

Alternatively, a new rule for Shrouding could be introduced.  What this rule would be, I don't know.  Perhaps something similar to The Changeling's Glamour of Tzeentch ability, though without the ability to redirect the fire; I'm a little ambivalent on this one specifically, though, as most armies have good Leadership making Shrouding potentially even more useless then it currently is now.
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Online The Man They Call Jayne

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2009, 11:18:08 PM »
possibly take a Ld check to see them, regardless of range.

my reasoning is, generally, the higher the leadership, the fewer models on the table, so it would balance out.

probably stupid, but its a thought.
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There's no rule in any rulebook saying that you can't do it.  But there's also no rule in print saying that I can't hire an industrial woodchipper and feed your models into it if you do so.

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2009, 11:30:44 PM »
It's an interesting idea, but I feel it is ultimately flawed.  With the exception of Tau Fire Warriors or Pathfinders, the average Leadership of something expected to shoot is generally 8 or more (most Tyranid shooting is performed by Warriors, Tyrants and Carnifexes whom are all Leadership 10, Orks get Mob Rule, Guard get Veteran Sergeants in a lot of their squads etc.).

To be fair, Leadership is the most equivalent stat to the old Willpower, but GW's ramping up of Leadership values makes failing Leadership tests in the modern gaming environment a very unreliable prospect, IMHO.

An idea I just had would be a squad psychic power, purchased from the army list as an upgrade for the squad, could be used to prevent an squad within a certain range from firing at that one squad for their next Shooting phase (alternatively if could be used in their Shooting phase instead).  Thus, they cloud the minds of the enemy, making them essentially invisible to them.

The thought of including squad-level minor psychic abilities is one I like, as it means that you can introduce variety between your squads without needing to vastly increase their armoury options.

Oh, and I'd love to see Perils of the Warp on a squad get reduced in power.  As it currently stands, taking Perils of the Warp means that EVERY member of the squad takes the hit.  Since 5th Edition (heck, even in 4th Edition, where it was a Strength 6 hit rather than an automatic wound) I've never taken Holocaust on my Grey Knight Terminators for this very reason.  I would suggest that d3 squad members of your choice take a PotW hit, assuming we make squad-level psychic powers require Psychic tests.
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MT.
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Offline Finn

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2009, 02:01:24 AM »
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I am loathe to give Grey Knights a rule akin to DP/D/D Assault, simply because those three armies already get it.  Yes it fits, and reduces the waiting and randomness, but it's replicating rules already found in Marine codexes (for two out of three, at least).  I do have an idea on the matter, though, but I will go into more detail on that further on.

Do NOT give Grey Knights Drop Pods or Rhinos.  Just don't.  I have an idea to improve their mobility, but I'll detail that later on.  And definitely don't give them Jump Packs.
Can't wait :) And I already said I really want to avoid giving GKs Rhinos and Drop Pods. Jump Pack is a ludicrous idea I just throw out that can be freely thrown out the window.

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I can't deny that giving them Frags makes things so much easier, but we've seen an instance of where a model has an ability that grants the unit the equivalent; Eldar Harlequin Shadowseers have Hallucinogen Grenades that grant the unit Plasma Grenades.  Therefore, there's no reason you couldn't give the Grey Knights an 'equivalent of Frags' ability or psychic power, like I suggested previously.

The other thing is that I like the idea of Grey Knights being so badass that they don't need the mundane equipment that 'regular' Space Marines use (even if they replicate the ability with a psychic power).  This goes especially for Krak Grenades; you have a weapon that grants you the ability to destroy a Dreadnought in melee, so if you choose to give it up to tote a better ranged weapon then it's your own fault for doing so.  Giving PAGK Krak Grenades makes taking Special weapons a no-brainer choice, since you still get the Strength against vehicles.
Hmmm.....true enough. Maybe we just put that little entry under Shrouding Special Rule as in they didn't register until they start swinging their Nemesis Force Weapons.

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The thing is that Daemonhunters, or Grey Knights at least, should only be fielded against Daemons.  There is no real reason why Grey Knights should face something non-Daemonic (unless it's because it's in the same army as the Daemonic enemy but in the way).  Personally, I would like to see the Adversaries section become compulsory, but the enemy's Daemons be free of charge and models provided by the Daemonhunter player (assuming the other player doesn't have his own models he wants to use).  That way you will ONLY see Grey Knights when the enemy has Daemons, which is pretty much as it is given in the background.
I've never liked the Adversaries rules tbh because we're just giving them free stuff and so far, I have yet to see a 5th Edition Codex do this. I would rather we avoid this. Especially when the GK player has to buy MORE models than they really should.

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With that in mind, I would suggest that the rule akin to "Grey Knight Assault" basically mean that Grey Knights held in reserve may not enter play until any enemy Daemons do, but at that point they AUTOMATICALLY enter play (or give them a staggered, yet non-random, deployment like in Apocalypse; up to half may come on the turn after the Daemons enter play and the rest must come on the turn after that).  Since the enemy always has Daemons, the Grey Knight player will always enter play at a reasonable time.
I think if we go something like "If the Grey Knight player is playing against a Chaos Daemon player, the Grey Knight player must always go second."  for a Special Rule.

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For mobility, I would like to see the ability to be removed from play and teleported across the battlefield.  Grey Knights are known for their Teleportation prowess and I think that would be an interesting way to improve their mobility without giving them Transports.  Whether we do this in a similar manner to the Eldar Skyleap (removed from play and put back into Reserve) or the Necron Veil of Darkness (instantly redeploy via Deep Strike) would need to be discussed.
Ooo.....interesting indeed. It might actually add that unique taste to GKs.

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To be honest, Shrouding, as it currently exists in the background, should NOT be affected by any of the aforementioned abilities or wargear.  It is somewhat akin to the Eldar Shadowseer's Veil of Tears (though far less effective).

Perhaps you could allow any Psyker, or unit with a Psyker attached to it, to reroll the result for Shrouding (representing the Psyker in a battle of wills with the Grey Knights to pinpoint their position)?  That way it's a similar situation for Night Fighting in so much as almost every army has something to help them in that manner, even if it's not the same thing to help them out for both.
Sounds good :)

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I'm fully aware of the Mortis Dreadnought.  To be honest, though, it's a case of what Daemonhunter players have done with Dreadnoughts on the tabletop more than what their background suggests, as they're the only real long-range shooting, in particular anti-tank, that a pure Grey Knight army can include.  There is little given background for Grey Knight Dreadnoughts and I cannot see any real reason why they should favour one over the other (shooting vs. melee, I mean).
Just an idea I'm willing to scrap at the first sign :)

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If anything, I would suggest that Grey Knight Dreadnoughts, in a similar manner to how a regular Grey Knight has a Storm Bolter and Nemesis Force Weapon, should be forced to wield a DCCW and a ranged weapon, as this gives them a thematic tie in with their smaller brethren.  At that point, however, the question of where to situate them in the FOC is still open for debate.
Okay but how about those GKs armed with Special/Heavy Weapons only e.g. Purgation Squads.

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The other thing to bear in mind is that would a Venerable Grey Knight Dreadnought have WS 6?
Yes. Anything wrong with it?

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I agree.  There is no way you can include the current IG Stormtroopers as Troops.  As they stand, the current Stormtrooper entry is fine, though I would consider dropping the points costs by up to 2 per model, including Frags and Kraks as standard (with no option to upgrade to Melta Bombs except for the Veteran), and forcing you to take 10 models to get a second Special Weapon.  I would also consider renaming them so there is no confusion between an Imperial Guard Stormtrooper and an Inquisitional "something", even if you continue to use the same models.
Yeah....I would incline to agree but every fluff thus I've seen thus far calls them Storm Troopers ~.~

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Assassins need fixing on so many levels it's tempting to just remove them from the Codex completely.  I do like your idea of "one per Inquisitor Lord", in a similar way to Imperial Guard Advisers (but obviously detached from the retinue).  In fact...  you could even make Death Cultists Retinue members, so rather than being a poor-man's Eversor they could be used to give Inquisitors more of a bite in melee (something sorely needed right now, IMHO).
Last night, I tried to do the Retinue system in my head as per 5th Edition and honestly, it's a complete mess :S I might go with what they did with Wolf Guard.

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As for the temple assassins, they would need a major overhaul in terms of rules.  Not sure how to do that without them being too overpowered, but the removal of Allies rules will help a lot (as suddenly they don't become available to all and sundry within the Imperium, and thus capable of teaming up with the worst parts of the other Imperial army lists).  I also think that unique stat-lines for each of the assassin types would help distinguish between them (such as BS 8-10 for the Vindicare).
True enough. Looks like we a got a bit more work in that section.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 02:08:49 AM by Zenai »
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Offline Finn

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2009, 03:44:56 AM »
Got the first unit up for review: Ordo Malleus Inquisitor. Just a cheap HQ and of course, the Inquisitor Lord will have much better stats, about the same wargear, up to 2 Psychic Powers and the ability to have 1 Assassin in his employment.

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor                          40 Points/Model

   WSBSSTWIALdSv
Inquisitor443324294+
       

Unit Composition:
  • 1 Inquisitor
Wargear:
  • Carapace Armor
  • Close Combat Weapon
  • Bolt Pistol
  • Frag and Krak Grenades
Options:
  • May replace Close Combat Weapon and/or Bolt Pistol with:
    - Bolter for Free
    - Storm Bolter for 3 Points
    - Needle Pistol for 5 Points
    - Combi-Flamer, Combi-Melta or Combi-Plasma for 10 Points
    - Power Weapon or Plasma Pistol for 15 Points
    - Lightning Claws for 20 Points
    - Power Fist or Anointed Weapon or Null Rod for 25 Points
    - Thunderhammer or Storm Shield or Force Weapon or Eviscerator for 30 Points
    - Daemonhammer for 35 Points
  • May replace Carapace Armor with:
    - Power Armor for 10 Points
    - Artificer Armor for 20 Points
  • May replace Carapace Armor, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades for Terminator Armor, including Power Weapon and Storm Bolter for 40 Points
  • May replace Terminator Armor’s Power Weapon with:
    - Lightning Claw for 5 Points
    - Power Fist for 10 Points
    - Thunderhammer, Storm Shield or Chainfist for 15 Points
    - Daemonhammer for 20 Points
  • May replace Terminator Armor’s Storm Bolter with:
    - Combi-Flamer, Combi-Melta or Combi-Plasma for 5 Points
    - Lightning Claw for 15 Points
    - Power Fist for 20 Points
    - Thunderhammer, Storm Shield or Chainfist for 25 Points
    - Daemonhammer for 30 Points
  • May choose any of the following:
    - Melta Bombs for 5 Points
    - Digital Weapons for 10 Points
    - Psycannon Bolts for 10 Points
    - Unguents of Warding for 10 Points
    - Sacred Incense for 10 Points
    - Grimoire of True Names for 10 Points
    - Teleport Homer for 15 Points
    - Refractor Field for 15 Points
    - Psychic Hood for 20 Points
    - Icon of Just for 25 Points
  • May choose one of the following Psychic Powers:
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
Unit Type:
  • Infantry
Special Rules:
  • Independent Character
  • Iron Will

Wargear and Special Rule notes:
Unless I say otherwise, they the same as they are in the current DH Codex but either way, they need to be reworded properly to avoid RAW arguments.
Iron Will: Pretty much works the same as before although I dunno whether an ordinary Inquisitor can have it.
Anointed Weapon: Something like SM's Relic Blade or SW's Frost Blade/Axe. Take your pick.
Digital Weapons: Works like SM's.
Psychic Hood: Works like SM's.
Sacred Incense: Half (Rounding down) the Initiative.

Btw, someone has to redo the Psychic Powers.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 05:38:12 AM by Zenai »
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Offline Icer

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2009, 05:29:21 AM »
I feel that this:

May replace Close Combat Weapon/Bolt Pistol with:
- Bolter for Free
- Storm Bolter for 3 Points
- Needle Pistol for 5 Points
- Combi-Flamer, Combi-Melta or Combi-Plasma for 10 Points
- Power Weapon or Plasma Pistol for 15 Points
- Lightning Claws for 20 Points
- Power Fist or Anointed Weapon or Null Rod for 25 Points
- Thunderhammer or Storm Shield or Force Weapon or Eviscerator for 30 Points
- Daemonhammer for 35 Points

Whole section is messed up.

The null rod isn't a weapon, its a piece of wargear. Why would it replace a weapon? Second, the way its worded, you have one item replacing both the Bolt Pistol and the CC weapon. I feel that it should be "May replace the Close Combat weapon with the following, in addition, you may replace the Bolt Pistol with the following, no item may be taken twice."
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Offline Finn

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2009, 05:36:48 AM »
Quote
The null rod isn't a weapon, its a piece of wargear. Why would it replace a weapon?
Uh, Null Rod is a Power Weapon along with its Psychic Power-nullifying effect powers. So I thought it belongs in the Weapons section.

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Second, the way its worded, you have one item replacing both the Bolt Pistol and the CC weapon. I feel that it should be "May replace the Close Combat weapon with the following, in addition, you may replace the Bolt Pistol with the following, no item may be taken twice."
Space Marines, Imperial Guard and Space Wolves can do it so why can't DH? Also, I'll reword it to "and/or".
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Offline Icer

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2009, 05:40:39 AM »
OH, it is? I guess its been far too long since I've bothered reading the Daemonhunter Codex.

Why? Because its stupid, and I don't see where it says they can take multiple of a weapon, other than "A pair of lightning claws"
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Offline Finn

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2009, 05:45:30 AM »
OH, it is? I guess its been far too long since I've bothered reading the Daemonhunter Codex.
@ Mods: I get it to say this because Icer sorely deserves it and I'm his friend. Yes, Icer; a Null Rod is a weapon, dumbass! :P

Why? Because its stupid, and I don't see where it says they can take multiple of a weapon, other than "A pair of lightning claws"
How many people are going to take 2 Thunderhammers, 2 Bolt Pistols, 2 Power Fists, 2 Power Weapons etc? WYSIWYG. Anyway, it's not that abuse~able.
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Offline Icer

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2009, 05:48:15 AM »
I still feel as though that needs to be stated, as you should not be able to take two. ::)

I could swear that it was under the Wargear section of the Armory, and not the Weapons section... hmmmm....
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