Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex

[Finn]

Okay, so I was challenge to make an outdated Codex balanced for the 5th Edition doing nothing more than tweaking the cost-point, wargears and special rules. Maybe fit in a few new units that aren't that retarded~ish. Something that exists amongst the FW and maybe old Chapter Approved stuff. Of course, as the self-proclaimed Project Manager, I get to veto on any matter but I will study it first before I reject any ideas even if I study it for a second. So for my first few ideas:

1) Frag and Krak Grenades for everybody; I can't stress enough on how friggin' important this is
2) All Grey Knights are able to Deep-Strike
3) Shrouding Rule will work like Night-Fighting
4) Dreadnoughts shall be in the Elite slot
5) Overall drop in cost-points unless we add new toys and new special rules for the said unit

[Arnorath]

Sounds like a plan, Zenai.  Personally i think the DH 'dex needs more than a tweak - an old-style reshuffling and a hefty dose of new material (without straying beyond acceptable limits, of course) are in order, i think.

as for your initial suggestions:

1) Frag and Krak Grenades for everybody
2) All Grey Knights are able to Deep-Strike
3) Shrouding Rule will work like Night-Fighting

I agree - grenades are standard for other marines, so it stands to reason the Grey Knights would have them too.  As for deepstrike, it's very much in their character as an army, but i am reluctant to have the DH become another addition to the list of 5th-ed all-drop armies like Daemons and certain marine lists.  They need something special - like a first-turn post-deepstrike shooting attack, or something.

5) Overall drop in cost-points unless we add new toys and new special rules for the said unit

I agree also, if only because the DH need to keep on top of the 'codex creep' as much as any other army.  I for one am in favour of the old tradition of adding specific drawbacks to units - a flavourful way to balance their effectiveness without simply raising their points cost, which sadly seems to have been abandoned in 5th ed (coughcough space marines codex coughcough). 

Suggestion - when grey knights are present, the enemy gets x points worth of free lesser Daemons.  This is drawing on the old rule that grants enemy Daemons 'Without Number', in that it balances the Grey Knights' anti-Daemon effectiveness without raising their cost, which would leave them at a disadvantage against non-Daenonic armies.

[Masked Thespian]

1) Frag and Krak Grenades for everybody; I can't stress enough on how friggin' important this is

I disagree.  To begin with, Grey Knights don't need Krak Grenades as they're better off in melee against vehicles with their Nemesis Force Weapons (assuming you don't do anything to those).  Also, Frag Grenades, outside of their ignore-terrain-Initiative-modifier rule are also useless for the same reason.  Since the aforementioned ITIM is about the only real rule you need, I don't think that giving them Frags is a good idea but giving them an equivalent rule would be.  Perhaps something along the lines of "Grey Knights always attack at their given Initiative value, ignoring the effect of assaulting through terrain or enemy abilities."  This could be justified as a Warlock-style psychic power (I.e. no Psychic test required) as a result of their gestalt psychic ability.

Stormtroopers, on the other hand, are line units rather than the elites we see in Guard armies.  Whilst I would like to see a points reduction but leaving in the option to purchase either/both, I can't justify it compared to the other 5th Edition codexes.

2) All Grey Knights are able to Deep-Strike

If you were to do this, you need to consider the potential abuses of such a system.  Do you keep Power Armoured Grey Knights them as Troops choices and thus give the player the option to have an entirely Deep Striking army (including his scoring units)?  Do you assign them only to Fast Attack?  Should they get an equivalent ability to Drop Pod/Daemonic/Deathwing Assault?

For me, I would consider granting the option to make the entire army Deep Striking, as I've never enjoyed the idea of having Grey Knights on the ground before the game (in terms of the background more than the rules).  Thus, I would suggest allowing PAGK in your Troops slot to Deep Strike.  However, to balance this, I would suggest that PAGK in your Fast Attack slot get a special rule to balance the fact they are not scoring.  Due to allowing the same unit in different slots, I would suggest this NOT be an equivalent of DP/D/D Assault, but perhaps an ability equivalent to Heroic Intervention (I.e. allowing FA PAGK to assault on the turn they Deep Strike in).

3) Shrouding Rule will work like Night-Fighting

Fair enough.  Will things like Night Vision/Acute Senses, Blacksun Filters and Searchlights have an effect?  I know it seems silly to ask such a question, but you know there are some people who will poke a hole in such a reasoning if you don't nip it in the bud.

4) Dreadnoughts shall be in the Elite slot

I don't see too much of a reason to do this, other than "that's how it is in every other Marine Codex."  Grey Knight Dreadnoughts generally get used in a support role, with two ranged weapons rather than a DCCW and making use of their higher WS.  Also, by making them Elites you're eating into the amount of GKTerminator units you can take but increasing the amount of Land Raiders you can take instead.  It's an interesting dichotomy that would need to be looked at carefully, particularly with what you do with the Dreadnought entry and options itself, before you change the force organisation slot.

5) Overall drop in cost-points unless we add new toys and new special rules for the said unit

Well, that's pretty much a given.


The biggest issue I can see, within the limitations you've been given, is that any new Inquisition Codex would NEED to replicate any 'inducted/allied' entries, since GW has stated that they don't want players using more than one Codex for an army, and thus allies rules go out the window.  You can't refer to Codex: Imperial Guard or Codex: Space Marines so you'll need to add new units representing 'inducted/allied' units.

[Finn]

I agree - grenades are standard for other marines, so it stands to reason the Grey Knights would have them too.  As for deepstrike, it's very much in their character as an army, but i am reluctant to have the DH become another addition to the list of 5th-ed all-drop armies like Daemons and certain marine lists.  They need something special - like a first-turn post-deepstrike shooting attack, or something.

If you were to do this, you need to consider the potential abuses of such a system.  Do you keep Power Armoured Grey Knights them as Troops choices and thus give the player the option to have an entirely Deep Striking army (including his scoring units)?  Do you assign them only to Fast Attack?  Should they get an equivalent ability to Drop Pod/Daemonic/Deathwing Assault?

For me, I would consider granting the option to make the entire army Deep Striking, as I've never enjoyed the idea of having Grey Knights on the ground before the game (in terms of the background more than the rules).  Thus, I would suggest allowing PAGK in your Troops slot to Deep Strike.  However, to balance this, I would suggest that PAGK in your Fast Attack slot get a special rule to balance the fact they are not scoring.  Due to allowing the same unit in different slots, I would suggest this NOT be an equivalent of DP/D/D Assault, but perhaps an ability equivalent to Heroic Intervention (I.e. allowing FA PAGK to assault on the turn they Deep Strike in).

Good points, both of you. I was going for that they MUST Deep-strike; half (rounding up) shall come out of Reserves by means of Deep-Striking while the rest will come via preceding turns ala rolling whether they come of Reserves if they make the rolls. Like Deathwing Assault but we be calling it Grey Knight Assault. I dunno it is acceptable to give Grey Knights Drop Pod or Rhinos. There's so little fluff on such deployment and their delivery system. That's why I thought make them all Deep-strike as per their specialty that I have read so far in their fluff. As for the FA PAGK, wanna give them Jump Pack + Heroic Intervention? Just an idea; you may tear it up and throw it away.

I disagree.  To begin with, Grey Knights don't need Krak Grenades as they're better off in melee against vehicles with their Nemesis Force Weapons (assuming you don't do anything to those).  Also, Frag Grenades, outside of their ignore-terrain-Initiative-modifier rule are also useless for the same reason.  Since the aforementioned ITIM is about the only real rule you need, I don't think that giving them Frags is a good idea but giving them an equivalent rule would be.  Perhaps something along the lines of "Grey Knights always attack at their given Initiative value, ignoring the effect of assaulting through terrain or enemy abilities."  This could be justified as a Warlock-style psychic power (I.e. no Psychic test required) as a result of their gestalt psychic ability.

Giving them Frag Grenades would just make things sooooooooooooo much easier IMHO. The Krak Grenades as for those Grey Knights that eschew their Nemesis Force Weapons and Storm Bolter for Special/Heavy Weapons.

I agree also, if only because the DH need to keep on top of the 'codex creep' as much as any other army.  I for one am in favour of the old tradition of adding specific drawbacks to units - a flavourful way to balance their effectiveness without simply raising their points cost, which sadly seems to have been abandoned in 5th ed (coughcough space marines codex coughcough). 

Suggestion - when grey knights are present, the enemy gets x points worth of free lesser Daemons.  This is drawing on the old rule that grants enemy Daemons 'Without Number', in that it balances the Grey Knights' anti-Daemon effectiveness without raising their cost, which would leave them at a disadvantage against non-Daenonic armies.

I've decided to redo the entire "We're good against Daemons so we have these Special Rules..." Special Rules. Trying to go by RAW; these Special Rules should affect anything from the Chaos Space Marine and Chaos Daemon Codices. I thought I make them "almost free" since the Special Rules itself can only affect a narrow margin of the 40K armies but I feel we're going to need to discuss this extensively.

Fair enough.  Will things like Night Vision/Acute Senses, Blacksun Filters and Searchlights have an effect?  I know it seems silly to ask such a question, but you know there are some people who will poke a hole in such a reasoning if you don't nip it in the bud.

I don't think its a silly matter. On the contrary, it's a serious matter especially when it comes to RAW. Aye, I want it be as RAW-friendly as possible while being RAI-friendly as well. I will first read through the profile for the Searchlight, Acute Senses/Night Vision USR as well as Blacksun Filter to see how they work first before I write up the rules for Shrouding. Honestly, I don't think those things work especially when it's a de-facto Psychic-base defense. Again, another matter to discuss extensively.

I don't see too much of a reason to do this, other than "that's how it is in every other Marine Codex."  Grey Knight Dreadnoughts generally get used in a support role, with two ranged weapons rather than a DCCW and making use of their higher WS.  Also, by making them Elites you're eating into the amount of GKTerminator units you can take but increasing the amount of Land Raiders you can take instead.  It's an interesting dichotomy that would need to be looked at carefully, particularly with what you do with the Dreadnought entry and options itself, before you change the force organisation slot.

True; maybe a Venerable Dreadnought and "normal" Dreadnought for the Elite slot while we have a Mortis-like (IIRC it's the Dark Angels double Twin-Linked Autocannon-armed Dreadnought) Dreadnought for the Heavy Slot. Yet, another matter to discuss.

The biggest issue I can see, within the limitations you've been given, is that any new Inquisition Codex would NEED to replicate any 'inducted/allied' entries, since GW has stated that they don't want players using more than one Codex for an army, and thus allies rules go out the window.  You can't refer to Codex: Imperial Guard or Codex: Space Marines so you'll need to add new units representing 'inducted/allied' units.

Much agreed upon

Anyway, I've thought over it for awhile and chills me to the bone if we were to use the current IG's Storm Trooper to be placed as Inquisitional Storm Troopers. That makes our Troop Choices 20+ point each. We're going need a cheap troop choice. There's also that matter of Assassins, none of the 5th Edition Codex I've seen put limitations on any unit. I can't imagine playing 3 Assassins will get me friends. So, I thought Assassins don't take up any slot but the player must take an Inquisitor Lord for every Assassin. What do you think on the matter?

[Masked Thespian]

Good points, both of you. I was going for that they MUST Deep-strike; half (rounding up) shall come out of Reserves by means of Deep-Striking while the rest will come via preceding turns ala rolling whether they come of Reserves if they make the rolls. Like Deathwing Assault but we be calling it Grey Knight Assault. I dunno it is acceptable to give Grey Knights Drop Pod or Rhinos. There's so little fluff on such deployment and their delivery system. That's why I thought make them all Deep-strike as per their specialty that I have read so far in their fluff. As for the FA PAGK, wanna give them Jump Pack + Heroic Intervention? Just an idea; you may tear it up and throw it away.

I am loathe to give Grey Knights a rule akin to DP/D/D Assault, simply because those three armies already get it.  Yes it fits, and reduces the waiting and randomness, but it's replicating rules already found in Marine codexes (for two out of three, at least).  I do have an idea on the matter, though, but I will go into more detail on that further on.

Do NOT give Grey Knights Drop Pods or Rhinos.  Just don't.  I have an idea to improve their mobility, but I'll detail that later on.  And definitely don't give them Jump Packs.

To be honest, I dislike the idea of PAGK; my idea of Grey Knights comes from 2nd Edition where all you had were Terminators and they were absolutely rock hard.  However, I am willing to accept that PAGK are currently available and to create a new codex without them would annoy an awful lot of players.  Ergo, PAGK have to stay.

Giving them Frag Grenades would just make things sooooooooooooo much easier IMHO. The Krak Grenades as for those Grey Knights that eschew their Nemesis Force Weapons and Storm Bolter for Special/Heavy Weapons.

I can't deny that giving them Frags makes things so much easier, but we've seen an instance of where a model has an ability that grants the unit the equivalent; Eldar Harlequin Shadowseers have Hallucinogen Grenades that grant the unit Plasma Grenades.  Therefore, there's no reason you couldn't give the Grey Knights an 'equivalent of Frags' ability or psychic power, like I suggested previously.

The other thing is that I like the idea of Grey Knights being so badass that they don't need the mundane equipment that 'regular' Space Marines use (even if they replicate the ability with a psychic power).  This goes especially for Krak Grenades; you have a weapon that grants you the ability to destroy a Dreadnought in melee, so if you choose to give it up to tote a better ranged weapon then it's your own fault for doing so.  Giving PAGK Krak Grenades makes taking Special weapons a no-brainer choice, since you still get the Strength against vehicles.

I've decided to redo the entire "We're good against Daemons so we have these Special Rules..." Special Rules. Trying to go by RAW; these Special Rules should affect anything from the Chaos Space Marine and Chaos Daemon Codices. I thought I make them "almost free" since the Special Rules itself can only affect a narrow margin of the 40K armies but I feel we're going to need to discuss this extensively.

The thing is that Daemonhunters, or Grey Knights at least, should only be fielded against Daemons.  There is no real reason why Grey Knights should face something non-Daemonic (unless it's because it's in the same army as the Daemonic enemy but in the way).  Personally, I would like to see the Adversaries section become compulsory, but the enemy's Daemons be free of charge and models provided by the Daemonhunter player (assuming the other player doesn't have his own models he wants to use).  That way you will ONLY see Grey Knights when the enemy has Daemons, which is pretty much as it is given in the background.

With that in mind, I would suggest that the rule akin to "Grey Knight Assault" basically mean that Grey Knights held in reserve may not enter play until any enemy Daemons do, but at that point they AUTOMATICALLY enter play (or give them a staggered, yet non-random, deployment like in Apocalypse; up to half may come on the turn after the Daemons enter play and the rest must come on the turn after that).  Since the enemy always has Daemons, the Grey Knight player will always enter play at a reasonable time.

For mobility, I would like to see the ability to be removed from play and teleported across the battlefield.  Grey Knights are known for their Teleportation prowess and I think that would be an interesting way to improve their mobility without giving them Transports.  Whether we do this in a similar manner to the Eldar Skyleap (removed from play and put back into Reserve) or the Necron Veil of Darkness (instantly redeploy via Deep Strike) would need to be discussed.

I don't think its a silly matter. On the contrary, it's a serious matter especially when it comes to RAW. Aye, I want it be as RAW-friendly as possible while being RAI-friendly as well. I will first read through the profile for the Searchlight, Acute Senses/Night Vision USR as well as Blacksun Filter to see how they work first before I write up the rules for Shrouding. Honestly, I don't think those things work especially when it's a de-facto Psychic-base defense. Again, another matter to discuss extensively.

To be honest, Shrouding, as it currently exists in the background, should NOT be affected by any of the aforementioned abilities or wargear.  It is somewhat akin to the Eldar Shadowseer's Veil of Tears (though far less effective).

Perhaps you could allow any Psyker, or unit with a Psyker attached to it, to reroll the result for Shrouding (representing the Psyker in a battle of wills with the Grey Knights to pinpoint their position)?  That way it's a similar situation for Night Fighting in so much as almost every army has something to help them in that manner, even if it's not the same thing to help them out for both.

True; maybe a Venerable Dreadnought and "normal" Dreadnought for the Elite slot while we have a Mortis-like (IIRC it's the Dark Angels double Twin-Linked Autocannon-armed Dreadnought) Dreadnought for the Heavy Slot. Yet, another matter to discuss.

I'm fully aware of the Mortis Dreadnought.  To be honest, though, it's a case of what Daemonhunter players have done with Dreadnoughts on the tabletop more than what their background suggests, as they're the only real long-range shooting, in particular anti-tank, that a pure Grey Knight army can include.  There is little given background for Grey Knight Dreadnoughts and I cannot see any real reason why they should favour one over the other (shooting vs. melee, I mean).

If anything, I would suggest that Grey Knight Dreadnoughts, in a similar manner to how a regular Grey Knight has a Storm Bolter and Nemesis Force Weapon, should be forced to wield a DCCW and a ranged weapon, as this gives them a thematic tie in with their smaller brethren.  At that point, however, the question of where to situate them in the FOC is still open for debate.

The other thing to bear in mind is that would a Venerable Grey Knight Dreadnought have WS 6?

Anyway, I've thought over it for awhile and chills me to the bone if we were to use the current IG's Storm Trooper to be placed as Inquisitional Storm Troopers. That makes our Troop Choices 20+ point each. We're going need a cheap troop choice.

I agree.  There is no way you can include the current IG Stormtroopers as Troops.  As they stand, the current Stormtrooper entry is fine, though I would consider dropping the points costs by up to 2 per model, including Frags and Kraks as standard (with no option to upgrade to Melta Bombs except for the Veteran), and forcing you to take 10 models to get a second Special Weapon.  I would also consider renaming them so there is no confusion between an Imperial Guard Stormtrooper and an Inquisitional "something", even if you continue to use the same models.

There's also that matter of Assassins, none of the 5th Edition Codex I've seen put limitations on any unit. I can't imagine playing 3 Assassins will get me friends. So, I thought Assassins don't take up any slot but the player must take an Inquisitor Lord for every Assassin. What do you think on the matter?

Assassins need fixing on so many levels it's tempting to just remove them from the Codex completely.  I do like your idea of "one per Inquisitor Lord", in a similar way to Imperial Guard Advisers (but obviously detached from the retinue).  In fact...  you could even make Death Cultists Retinue members, so rather than being a poor-man's Eversor they could be used to give Inquisitors more of a bite in melee (something sorely needed right now, IMHO).

As for the temple assassins, they would need a major overhaul in terms of rules.  Not sure how to do that without them being too overpowered, but the removal of Allies rules will help a lot (as suddenly they don't become available to all and sundry within the Imperium, and thus capable of teaming up with the worst parts of the other Imperial army lists).  I also think that unique stat-lines for each of the assassin types would help distinguish between them (such as BS 8-10 for the Vindicare).

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Not really up on Grey Knights, but im guessing that shrouding is like A Tau Stealth Generator? or night sight rules? 2d6x3? if so? would the Markerlight Night Sighting rules affect it? if a markerlight sees you, can another unit fire at it without rolling to see?

seeing as im the one who set the challenge in the first place i suppose i should try and constructivly find loopholes to poke at, just to make sure.

[Masked Thespian]

Not really up on Grey Knights, but im guessing that shrouding is like A Tau Stealth Generator? or night sight rules? 2d6x3? if so? would the Markerlight Night Sighting rules affect it? if a markerlight sees you, can another unit fire at it without rolling to see?

seeing as im the one who set the challenge in the first place i suppose i should try and constructivly find loopholes to poke at, just to make sure.

Shrouding works in a near identical manner to Night Fighting, except that the multiplier is greater (the average roll to spot Grey Knights is 35" as opposed to 21" for Night Fighting).  In previous editions of the game (3rd and perhaps 4th), Night Vision/Acute Senses DID work against Shrouding (as apparently things like Space Wolves can 'smell the incense' - worst 'background' excuse for a rules ruling I've ever heard) but currently they don't (and shouldn't).

In my personal opinion, a Markerlight hit shouldn't grant the ability to target Grey Knights like this; the Shrouding is supposed to be a psychic effect preventing the Grey Knights from registering in the shooter's mind as opposed to being a physical effect (like lack of light).  Hence why I suggested that Psykers be used to allow rerolls to 'spot' Grey Knights.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

if its a psychic thing, then once the markerlight hits it wont be affecting the targetting systems of other tau units would it? they are in no way psychic, and rely on receiving a signal that they can see.

so if the marker is not to have an effect the rule should be written accordingly.

[Masked Thespian]

if its a psychic thing, then once the markerlight hits it wont be affecting the targetting systems of other tau units would it? they are in no way psychic, and rely on receiving a signal that they can see.

so if the marker is not to have an effect the rule should be written accordingly.

As I've mentioned previously, in other threads, my opinion on certain psychic powers that affect the mind (such as Veil of Tears and the Shrouding) is that they could be so powerful and insidious that they prevent the users of such equipment from realising that such equipment has a lock-on.

And I did previously mention in this thread that I wanted things that affect Night Fighting to NOT affect the Shrouding and vice versa.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

fair enough, just wanted to make sure i understood. seeing as the average spotting distance is so high its not broken so im cool with it. do you intend to keep the current spotting system or change it?

[Masked Thespian]

I have probably played over three dozen games with Grey Knights and not once has an opponent failed to spot them.  When you consider that the average killing range of the average Grey Knight is 30" (6" move + 24" Storm Bolter), having an average of 35" to spot them means that to have a greater than even chance on spotting you need to be outside your maximum killing range (though you'd be within 1 inch if you're a Purgation Squad armed with multiple Psycannons).

I would dearly love to see the range reduced.  Not to the degree of Veil of Tears (which is, quite frankly, a little bit silly), but giving them the equivalent range of Night Fighting would probably be a good start.

Alternatively, a new rule for Shrouding could be introduced.  What this rule would be, I don't know.  Perhaps something similar to The Changeling's Glamour of Tzeentch ability, though without the ability to redirect the fire; I'm a little ambivalent on this one specifically, though, as most armies have good Leadership making Shrouding potentially even more useless then it currently is now.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

possibly take a Ld check to see them, regardless of range.

my reasoning is, generally, the higher the leadership, the fewer models on the table, so it would balance out.

probably stupid, but its a thought.

[Masked Thespian]

It's an interesting idea, but I feel it is ultimately flawed.  With the exception of Tau Fire Warriors or Pathfinders, the average Leadership of something expected to shoot is generally 8 or more (most Tyranid shooting is performed by Warriors, Tyrants and Carnifexes whom are all Leadership 10, Orks get Mob Rule, Guard get Veteran Sergeants in a lot of their squads etc.).

To be fair, Leadership is the most equivalent stat to the old Willpower, but GW's ramping up of Leadership values makes failing Leadership tests in the modern gaming environment a very unreliable prospect, IMHO.

An idea I just had would be a squad psychic power, purchased from the army list as an upgrade for the squad, could be used to prevent an squad within a certain range from firing at that one squad for their next Shooting phase (alternatively if could be used in their Shooting phase instead).  Thus, they cloud the minds of the enemy, making them essentially invisible to them.

The thought of including squad-level minor psychic abilities is one I like, as it means that you can introduce variety between your squads without needing to vastly increase their armoury options.

Oh, and I'd love to see Perils of the Warp on a squad get reduced in power.  As it currently stands, taking Perils of the Warp means that EVERY member of the squad takes the hit.  Since 5th Edition (heck, even in 4th Edition, where it was a Strength 6 hit rather than an automatic wound) I've never taken Holocaust on my Grey Knight Terminators for this very reason.  I would suggest that d3 squad members of your choice take a PotW hit, assuming we make squad-level psychic powers require Psychic tests.

[Finn]

I am loathe to give Grey Knights a rule akin to DP/D/D Assault, simply because those three armies already get it.  Yes it fits, and reduces the waiting and randomness, but it's replicating rules already found in Marine codexes (for two out of three, at least).  I do have an idea on the matter, though, but I will go into more detail on that further on.

Do NOT give Grey Knights Drop Pods or Rhinos.  Just don't.  I have an idea to improve their mobility, but I'll detail that later on.  And definitely don't give them Jump Packs.

Can't wait And I already said I really want to avoid giving GKs Rhinos and Drop Pods. Jump Pack is a ludicrous idea I just throw out that can be freely thrown out the window.

I can't deny that giving them Frags makes things so much easier, but we've seen an instance of where a model has an ability that grants the unit the equivalent; Eldar Harlequin Shadowseers have Hallucinogen Grenades that grant the unit Plasma Grenades.  Therefore, there's no reason you couldn't give the Grey Knights an 'equivalent of Frags' ability or psychic power, like I suggested previously.

The other thing is that I like the idea of Grey Knights being so badass that they don't need the mundane equipment that 'regular' Space Marines use (even if they replicate the ability with a psychic power).  This goes especially for Krak Grenades; you have a weapon that grants you the ability to destroy a Dreadnought in melee, so if you choose to give it up to tote a better ranged weapon then it's your own fault for doing so.  Giving PAGK Krak Grenades makes taking Special weapons a no-brainer choice, since you still get the Strength against vehicles.

Hmmm.....true enough. Maybe we just put that little entry under Shrouding Special Rule as in they didn't register until they start swinging their Nemesis Force Weapons.

The thing is that Daemonhunters, or Grey Knights at least, should only be fielded against Daemons.  There is no real reason why Grey Knights should face something non-Daemonic (unless it's because it's in the same army as the Daemonic enemy but in the way).  Personally, I would like to see the Adversaries section become compulsory, but the enemy's Daemons be free of charge and models provided by the Daemonhunter player (assuming the other player doesn't have his own models he wants to use).  That way you will ONLY see Grey Knights when the enemy has Daemons, which is pretty much as it is given in the background.

I've never liked the Adversaries rules tbh because we're just giving them free stuff and so far, I have yet to see a 5th Edition Codex do this. I would rather we avoid this. Especially when the GK player has to buy MORE models than they really should.

With that in mind, I would suggest that the rule akin to "Grey Knight Assault" basically mean that Grey Knights held in reserve may not enter play until any enemy Daemons do, but at that point they AUTOMATICALLY enter play (or give them a staggered, yet non-random, deployment like in Apocalypse; up to half may come on the turn after the Daemons enter play and the rest must come on the turn after that).  Since the enemy always has Daemons, the Grey Knight player will always enter play at a reasonable time.

I think if we go something like "If the Grey Knight player is playing against a Chaos Daemon player, the Grey Knight player must always go second."  for a Special Rule.

For mobility, I would like to see the ability to be removed from play and teleported across the battlefield.  Grey Knights are known for their Teleportation prowess and I think that would be an interesting way to improve their mobility without giving them Transports.  Whether we do this in a similar manner to the Eldar Skyleap (removed from play and put back into Reserve) or the Necron Veil of Darkness (instantly redeploy via Deep Strike) would need to be discussed.

Ooo.....interesting indeed. It might actually add that unique taste to GKs.

To be honest, Shrouding, as it currently exists in the background, should NOT be affected by any of the aforementioned abilities or wargear.  It is somewhat akin to the Eldar Shadowseer's Veil of Tears (though far less effective).

Perhaps you could allow any Psyker, or unit with a Psyker attached to it, to reroll the result for Shrouding (representing the Psyker in a battle of wills with the Grey Knights to pinpoint their position)?  That way it's a similar situation for Night Fighting in so much as almost every army has something to help them in that manner, even if it's not the same thing to help them out for both.

Sounds good

I'm fully aware of the Mortis Dreadnought.  To be honest, though, it's a case of what Daemonhunter players have done with Dreadnoughts on the tabletop more than what their background suggests, as they're the only real long-range shooting, in particular anti-tank, that a pure Grey Knight army can include.  There is little given background for Grey Knight Dreadnoughts and I cannot see any real reason why they should favour one over the other (shooting vs. melee, I mean).

Just an idea I'm willing to scrap at the first sign

If anything, I would suggest that Grey Knight Dreadnoughts, in a similar manner to how a regular Grey Knight has a Storm Bolter and Nemesis Force Weapon, should be forced to wield a DCCW and a ranged weapon, as this gives them a thematic tie in with their smaller brethren.  At that point, however, the question of where to situate them in the FOC is still open for debate.

Okay but how about those GKs armed with Special/Heavy Weapons only e.g. Purgation Squads.

The other thing to bear in mind is that would a Venerable Grey Knight Dreadnought have WS 6?

Yes. Anything wrong with it?

I agree.  There is no way you can include the current IG Stormtroopers as Troops.  As they stand, the current Stormtrooper entry is fine, though I would consider dropping the points costs by up to 2 per model, including Frags and Kraks as standard (with no option to upgrade to Melta Bombs except for the Veteran), and forcing you to take 10 models to get a second Special Weapon.  I would also consider renaming them so there is no confusion between an Imperial Guard Stormtrooper and an Inquisitional "something", even if you continue to use the same models.

Yeah....I would incline to agree but every fluff thus I've seen thus far calls them Storm Troopers ~.~

Assassins need fixing on so many levels it's tempting to just remove them from the Codex completely.  I do like your idea of "one per Inquisitor Lord", in a similar way to Imperial Guard Advisers (but obviously detached from the retinue).  In fact...  you could even make Death Cultists Retinue members, so rather than being a poor-man's Eversor they could be used to give Inquisitors more of a bite in melee (something sorely needed right now, IMHO).

Last night, I tried to do the Retinue system in my head as per 5th Edition and honestly, it's a complete mess :S I might go with what they did with Wolf Guard.

As for the temple assassins, they would need a major overhaul in terms of rules.  Not sure how to do that without them being too overpowered, but the removal of Allies rules will help a lot (as suddenly they don't become available to all and sundry within the Imperium, and thus capable of teaming up with the worst parts of the other Imperial army lists).  I also think that unique stat-lines for each of the assassin types would help distinguish between them (such as BS 8-10 for the Vindicare).

True enough. Looks like we a got a bit more work in that section.

[Finn]

Got the first unit up for review: Ordo Malleus Inquisitor. Just a cheap HQ and of course, the Inquisitor Lord will have much better stats, about the same wargear, up to 2 Psychic Powers and the ability to have 1 Assassin in his employment.

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor                          40 Points/Model

	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Inquisitor	4	4	3	3	2	4	2	9	4+

       

Unit Composition: 1 Inquisitor	Wargear: Carapace Armor Close Combat Weapon Bolt Pistol Frag and Krak Grenades	Options: May replace Close Combat Weapon and/or Bolt Pistol with: - Bolter for Free - Storm Bolter for 3 Points - Needle Pistol for 5 Points - Combi-Flamer, Combi-Melta or Combi-Plasma for 10 Points - Power Weapon or Plasma Pistol for 15 Points - Lightning Claws for 20 Points - Power Fist or Anointed Weapon or Null Rod for 25 Points - Thunderhammer or Storm Shield or Force Weapon or Eviscerator for 30 Points - Daemonhammer for 35 Points May replace Carapace Armor with: - Power Armor for 10 Points - Artificer Armor for 20 Points May replace Carapace Armor, Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades for Terminator Armor, including Power Weapon and Storm Bolter for 40 Points May replace Terminator Armor’s Power Weapon with: - Lightning Claw for 5 Points - Power Fist for 10 Points - Thunderhammer, Storm Shield or Chainfist for 15 Points - Daemonhammer for 20 Points May replace Terminator Armor’s Storm Bolter with: - Combi-Flamer, Combi-Melta or Combi-Plasma for 5 Points - Lightning Claw for 15 Points - Power Fist for 20 Points - Thunderhammer, Storm Shield or Chainfist for 25 Points - Daemonhammer for 30 Points May choose any of the following: - Melta Bombs for 5 Points - Digital Weapons for 10 Points - Psycannon Bolts for 10 Points - Unguents of Warding for 10 Points - Sacred Incense for 10 Points - Grimoire of True Names for 10 Points - Teleport Homer for 15 Points - Refractor Field for 15 Points - Psychic Hood for 20 Points - Icon of Just for 25 Points May choose one of the following Psychic Powers: - - - - - - - -
Unit Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Independent Character Iron Will

Wargear and Special Rule notes:
Unless I say otherwise, they the same as they are in the current DH Codex but either way, they need to be reworded properly to avoid RAW arguments.
Iron Will: Pretty much works the same as before although I dunno whether an ordinary Inquisitor can have it.
Anointed Weapon: Something like SM's Relic Blade or SW's Frost Blade/Axe. Take your pick.
Digital Weapons: Works like SM's.
Psychic Hood: Works like SM's.
Sacred Incense: Half (Rounding down) the Initiative.

Btw, someone has to redo the Psychic Powers.

[Icer]

I feel that this:

May replace Close Combat Weapon/Bolt Pistol with:
- Bolter for Free
- Storm Bolter for 3 Points
- Needle Pistol for 5 Points
- Combi-Flamer, Combi-Melta or Combi-Plasma for 10 Points
- Power Weapon or Plasma Pistol for 15 Points
- Lightning Claws for 20 Points
- Power Fist or Anointed Weapon or Null Rod for 25 Points
- Thunderhammer or Storm Shield or Force Weapon or Eviscerator for 30 Points
- Daemonhammer for 35 Points

Whole section is messed up.

The null rod isn't a weapon, its a piece of wargear. Why would it replace a weapon? Second, the way its worded, you have one item replacing both the Bolt Pistol and the CC weapon. I feel that it should be "May replace the Close Combat weapon with the following, in addition, you may replace the Bolt Pistol with the following, no item may be taken twice."

[Finn]

The null rod isn't a weapon, its a piece of wargear. Why would it replace a weapon?

Uh, Null Rod is a Power Weapon along with its Psychic Power-nullifying effect powers. So I thought it belongs in the Weapons section.

Second, the way its worded, you have one item replacing both the Bolt Pistol and the CC weapon. I feel that it should be "May replace the Close Combat weapon with the following, in addition, you may replace the Bolt Pistol with the following, no item may be taken twice."

Space Marines, Imperial Guard and Space Wolves can do it so why can't DH? Also, I'll reword it to "and/or".

[Icer]

OH, it is? I guess its been far too long since I've bothered reading the Daemonhunter Codex.

Why? Because its stupid, and I don't see where it says they can take multiple of a weapon, other than "A pair of lightning claws"

[Finn]

OH, it is? I guess its been far too long since I've bothered reading the Daemonhunter Codex.

@ Mods: I get it to say this because Icer sorely deserves it and I'm his friend. Yes, Icer; a Null Rod is a weapon, dumbass!

Why? Because its stupid, and I don't see where it says they can take multiple of a weapon, other than "A pair of lightning claws"

How many people are going to take 2 Thunderhammers, 2 Bolt Pistols, 2 Power Fists, 2 Power Weapons etc? WYSIWYG. Anyway, it's not that abuse~able.

[Icer]

I still feel as though that needs to be stated, as you should not be able to take two.

I could swear that it was under the Wargear section of the Armory, and not the Weapons section... hmmmm....

[Sidstyler]

How many people are going to take 2 Thunderhammers

*cough*

Was actually an idea I had for a Salamanders terminator captain when I heard you could take two of them in the new codex. 

2 Bolt Pistols

Cypher.

2 Power Fists

I think that would be cool, too. Like a Space Marine swordmaster, fighting Florentine style. 

[Dragonborn Seth]

There is actually a tactical reason to take two Fists or Hammers. Power Fists and Thunder Hammers share the same rule as Lightning Claws; they will never receive a two-weapon bonus unless they are equipped with a second Fist, Hammer, or Claws, respectively. Pistols and CCWs will not do the trick. Of course, it is still a massive points sink; in the case of Fists you may be paying 25 points for an extra Attack. Nevertheless, there is reason to do such a thing.

[Khanaris]

Cypher has a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol.


As a twist, I think teleporting Grey Knights could be able to make use of enemy Chaos Icons as teleport homers. 

[Finn]

Cypher has a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol.

How many people are going to take 2 Thunderhammers

*cough*

Was actually an idea I had for a Salamanders terminator captain when I heard you could take two of them in the new codex. 

2 Bolt Pistols

Cypher.

2 Power Fists

I think that would be cool, too. Like a Space Marine swordmaster, fighting Florentine style. 

There is actually a tactical reason to take two Fists or Hammers. Power Fists and Thunder Hammers share the same rule as Lightning Claws; they will never receive a two-weapon bonus unless they are equipped with a second Fist, Hammer, or Claws, respectively. Pistols and CCWs will not do the trick. Of course, it is still a massive points sink; in the case of Fists you may be paying 25 points for an extra Attack. Nevertheless, there is reason to do such a thing.

Like I said, it's not going to be a big deal having 2 of the same weapon. Maybe for awesome~ness reasons but that's it.

As a twist, I think teleporting Grey Knights could be able to make use of enemy Icons and HQ Daemons as teleport homers. 

We shall consider your suggestion, Sounds very good on the surface but like many other things, it must be discussed extensively.

[Sidstyler]

Cypher has a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol.

...well...it's still a pistol! I was half-right.

[Arnorath]

As a twist, I think teleporting Grey Knights could be able to make use of enemy Icons and HQ Daemons as teleport homers.

Okay, my initial reaction to that was very strongly in the negative, but now that I've thought about it, i think it'd be kinda cool.  It would represent the Grey Knights specifically targeting important enemy Daemons and icons for high-priority elimination.  It would have to be well restricted, though, or it might easily be abused.

suggestion - only certain squads can make use of this rule (Purgation Squads and the like - specialised elite headhunter units) and / or the ability could be granted by an HQ-only wargear item, so that the character and his squad gain the ability but pay points for it.

[Masked Thespian]

Got the first unit up for review: Ordo Malleus Inquisitor.

Okay, I have some issues with this unit entry.  A lot of them are intangible and undefinable, but the entry itself seems slightly wrong in so many ways.


To begin, I would like to address the issue of the background.  Are we changing anything in the way the Inquisition, specifically the Ordo Malleus, operates?  Are we adding new background (such as a new name for Stormtroopers) and/or removing some older, out of date background?

Also, what armoury are we allocating to Daemonhunters?  Yes, I know we won't have an "Armoury" per se any more, but we still need to define the differences, in weapons and wargear at least, between the Ordos Malleus, Xenos and Hereticus.  Amongst other things, I noticed that you removed Psycannons and Incinerators as weapon options.

We also need to discuss the wargear and weapons' rules themselves.  Will we be keeping transparency between this Codex and, say, Codex: Space Marines (I.e. use the same rules for the Storm Shield, for example) or will we be creating new rules?  What new equipment should we create, based on any new background we've added, and what rules should be allocated to said equipment?  Should we trim out any older pieces and/or update their rules?

As admitted, you've missed out Psychic powers, but I feel these are a major part of a Daemonhunter and should be part of the core.  They should be worked upon well before prices are attached to anything.

Likewise, I feel the Retinue is a major part of how an Inquisitor operates.  In almost every work of fiction I've read about the Inquisition, an Inquisitor relies on his companions to provide services beyond that which he can do himself.  Each Retinue member should be individually weaker than the Inquisitor but specialised in one particular area making them useful.  The current Retinue rules tend to produce overcosted and underpowered units and this is an area I feel needs a major overhaul.  Again, with respect to creating new background, can we create new Retinue members?

For the Inquisitor himself, may I ask why you've increased his Leadership?  Also, you've not actually reduced his points cost (though you have added free grenades) and moved him from Elites to HQ for no apparent reason.  Should an Inquisitional list no longer be representative of a conclave of Inquisitors and instead be representative of a single Inquisitor's private army?


I feel there are a load of questions here that need to be answered (and I'm not just referring to the ones I've just mentioned).  At a minimum, we need to ask ourselves, "How do the Ordo Malleus operate in the background?", "How should Daemonhunters play on the tabletop?" and "Will there be any tangible gameplay difference between a Puritan and a Radical army?" before we even consider posting ANY further unit entries, stat blocks, weapons or wargear rules or anything like that.  Without getting the basic building blocks in place, anything else we make will simply come tumbling down.

Please don't feel that I'm trying to have a go at you, Zenny; it just seems that you and I have slightly different ideas regarding the genesis of an army list.  It probably doesn't help that I absolutely love Daemonhunters and, as such, I want to see them done right.

[Finn]

To begin, I would like to address the issue of the background.  Are we changing anything in the way the Inquisition, specifically the Ordo Malleus, operates?  Are we adding new background (such as a new name for Stormtroopers) and/or removing some older, out of date background?

I dare not touch the mainstream fluff to be honest. Just trying to update and balance the DH justifying it with whatever fluff we got at hand and we're pretty much lacking in it especially for Grey Knights. And honestly, I'm grinding my dyi over the Storm Trooper issue.

Also, what armoury are we allocating to Daemonhunters?  Yes, I know we won't have an "Armoury" per se any more, but we still need to define the differences, in weapons and wargear at least, between the Ordos Malleus, Xenos and Hereticus.  Amongst other things, I noticed that you removed Psycannons and Incinerators as weapon options.

Well, whatever it's in the DH Armory we're going to salvage some of them whilst phasing out (which I'm seeing in the other 5th Edition Codex) some of the gear like Auspex and Bionics whilst keeping enough of them to define us as Ordo Malleus like they did with Space Wolves e.g. Wolf Tail Talisman and Wolftooth Necklace. Also, I've never found the idea of leaders going around carrying heavy weapons even those in Terminator Armor to be a nice-looking picture. Anyway, he has better things to do; they way I hope we're going to do the Inquisitors is that they're able to have a define role; Support e.g. Eldar's Farseer or IG's Command Squad or Offensive e.g. Ork's Warboss or Space Wolves' Wolf Lord.

We also need to discuss the wargear and weapons' rules themselves.  Will we be keeping transparency between this Codex and, say, Codex: Space Marines (I.e. use the same rules for the Storm Shield, for example) or will we be creating new rules?  What new equipment should we create, based on any new background we've added, and what rules should be allocated to said equipment?  Should we trim out any older pieces and/or update their rules?

We will definitely try to make the wargear work the same as their counterparts in other real 5th Edition Codices. I wanna try to cut out the fuss over the same piece of wargear but works differently over different codices. No new wargear for now. I think we have a pretty good closet of them currently in the current DH Codex. Just need to make them shine again. So, yes; trim out any older pieces and/or update their rules.

As admitted, you've missed out Psychic powers, but I feel these are a major part of a Daemonhunter and should be part of the core.  They should be worked upon well before prices are attached to anything.

I was hoping I can delegate this task to you; I'm never one to trust Psychic Powers. Call me Ol' Skool Guard Commander but that's my opinion.

Likewise, I feel the Retinue is a major part of how an Inquisitor operates.  In almost every work of fiction I've read about the Inquisition, an Inquisitor relies on his companions to provide services beyond that which he can do himself.  Each Retinue member should be individually weaker than the Inquisitor but specialised in one particular area making them useful.  The current Retinue rules tend to produce overcosted and underpowered units and this is an area I feel needs a major overhaul.  Again, with respect to creating new background, can we create new Retinue members?

K.I.S.S.; this is going to be difficult to achieve especially when you can be so.....creative with them. They're going to have such an extensive wargear that could put Wolf Guard to shame whilst having so many and colorful unit range that I have yet to see any of the other codices rival (Maybe Company Command Squads and their Regimental Advisors but I'm sure they don't come close to that even). Again, this is going to pretty hard and we're going to go over it for a few months to get it right. Lemme see what you got and I'll go thru it.

For the Inquisitor himself, may I ask why you've increased his Leadership?  Also, you've not actually reduced his points cost (though you have added free grenades) and moved him from Elites to HQ for no apparent reason.  Should an Inquisitional list no longer be representative of a conclave of Inquisitors and instead be representative of a single Inquisitor's private army?

Well, I thought we needed a slightly cheaper HQ choice and I see little reason to have him on the Elite slot. The Ld thing just to show that they're mentally-fortified than a IG Sergeant. Conclave of Inquisitors.........easier to put them in HQs since they're also their to help carry out orders. I dunno...

I feel there are a load of questions here that need to be answered (and I'm not just referring to the ones I've just mentioned).  At a minimum, we need to ask ourselves, "How do the Ordo Malleus operate in the background?", "How should Daemonhunters play on the tabletop?" and "Will there be any tangible gameplay difference between a Puritan and a Radical army?" before we even consider posting ANY further unit entries, stat blocks, weapons or wargear rules or anything like that.  Without getting the basic building blocks in place, anything else we make will simply come tumbling down.

Aye, I guess I was getting ahead of myself.

Please don't feel that I'm trying to have a go at you, Zenny; it just seems that you and I have slightly different ideas regarding the genesis of an army list.  It probably doesn't help that I absolutely love Daemonhunters and, as such, I want to see them done right.

I know you know your stuff and you aren't such a Fan-wanking Weaboo like I've seen in some other parts of the forum So, no offense taken. Bitter Medicine, Good Health.

[Finn]

Alright, let's start over:

1) How do the Ordo Malleus operate in the background?
Well, I'm pretty sure the current background would suffice e.g. look for daemons and kill it. Of course, I'm more of a militant-type of Inquisitor Lord and I'm sure someone (Masked Thespian) can explain better the more subtle approach of waging the war against Daemons.

2) How should Daemonhunters play on the tabletop?
Like before, Inquisition should have a lot of techno-magic in their sleeves and some exotic Psychic Powers (mostly used against Daemons of course though I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 general-purpose Psychic Powers). They should have as many tricks as the Eldar whilst having an "Iron Fist" comparable to Space Marines (in the form of Grey Knights). Grey Knight would be Assault/Close-Range orientated; Storm Bolter and Nemesis Force Weapons as well as "Assault" Special/Heavy Weapons. Their Shrouding and "Teleport" Special Rules should be able to get them where they need to whilst protecting them from being getting killed by a Railgun 72" away. Summary, Eldar Marines

3) Will there be any tangible gameplay difference between a Puritan and a Radical army?
Guess not since GW saw fit to tear away the IG Doctrine, Space Marine Traits and Eldar Craftworlds.

[Notanoob]

I always got the idea that GKs simply a. teleported into the Daemon Vessal's crib and b. blasted him to bits with all sorts of cool gadgets and Psykic Powers. Never have I thought of them as 'Land Raider Mech' 'DP assault' or anything like that. The problem with this is that it would mean that they would be PAGKs, GKTs, and a ton of awsome wargear+special rules. I.E. Homing in on enemy Homing Becans, Chaos Icons, etc. Teleporting when already on the battlefield, and having everything ignore invulnerable saves.

When you throw in an Inquisitor, I think they kind of sneak up on the enemy, then brutalize them in whatever way they prefer (shooting, assaulting, or psyking powers). DP dreds would be acceptable here, along with LRs with Infiltrate. 

Radicals means basically throwing in all sorts of Chaos Wargear+definitely homing in on Chaos Icons. I would think of Radicals as S3 T3 Chaos lords from 3rd edition.

[Finn]

Radicals means basically throwing in all sorts of Chaos Wargear+definitely homing in on Chaos Icons. I would think of Radicals as S3 T3 Chaos lords from 3rd edition.

I don't see any reason to have a distinction between Radicals and Puritans since GW saw fit to let us do whatever we want.

[Emperor Zoron]

What would guys think about the idea of having a 'Bank' retinue member be available to an Inquisitor? They do make use of them, when they can find them. So it would fit the fluff.

[Rej]

Radicals means basically throwing in all sorts of Chaos Wargear+definitely homing in on Chaos Icons. I would think of Radicals as S3 T3 Chaos lords from 3rd edition.

I don't see any reason to have a distinction between Radicals and Puritans since GW saw fit to let us do whatever we want.

I think there needs to be some form of Distinction.

An obvious radical for example shouldn't be able to fight along side Grey Knights while a puritan would attack a daemonhost before doing anything else. This is how it works in the codex at the moment, and it makes sense.

Or, are you saying there shouldn't be any items or choices that defines a difference between radical and puritan, ie, game wise they don't exist, just an inquisitor does.
If thats the case then the codex will be losing some of its flavour, no more cult based radical forces led by a mad inquisitor and his Daemonhosts!


Will Valkyries be added in as Transport options?
I assume they would be, Inquisitors have vast resources.


I don't think bringing back adversaries would help, forcing Grey Knights to only play Daemons and Chaos, sure its fluffy as hell. But say, None of my friends play Daemons, and I don't have the money to buy them a force to play with, Grey Knights are already very expensive.
And sure, Grey Knights fighting anything other then Vile Warp Spawn is rare, but it still happens and it isn't to difficult to come up with reasons why. Examples are even given in the current codex.

[Khanaris]

The suggestion about homing in on Chaos Icons wasn't to imply that the Inquisitor is using them in some way.  Rather, they are just very obvious focuses of corruption, and that should make it easier for the Grey Knights to see them.  In terms of gameplay, it forces Chaos players to be a little more careful about where their icons are.

[Rej]

The suggestion about homing in on Chaos Icons wasn't to imply that the Inquisitor is using them in some way.  Rather, they are just very obvious focuses of corruption, and that should make it easier for the Grey Knights to see them.  In terms of gameplay, it forces Chaos players to be a little more careful about where their icons are.

Well I quite like this, it needs to be properly thought out though, GK's are obviously not tactically retarded. And making it over powered needs to be avoided.

Were you implying they counted as some form of teleporting beacon? So if deepstriking near them they won't scatter?
Or was it more along the lines of forcing GK's to act/head towards and destroy them?
Or was it just a general idea thrown out there to be discussed?

[Finn]

Radicals means basically throwing in all sorts of Chaos Wargear+definitely homing in on Chaos Icons. I would think of Radicals as S3 T3 Chaos lords from 3rd edition.

I don't see any reason to have a distinction between Radicals and Puritans since GW saw fit to let us do whatever we want.

I think there needs to be some form of Distinction.

An obvious radical for example shouldn't be able to fight along side Grey Knights while a puritan would attack a daemonhost before doing anything else. This is how it works in the codex at the moment, and it makes sense.

Or, are you saying there shouldn't be any items or choices that defines a difference between radical and puritan, ie, game wise they don't exist, just an inquisitor does.
If thats the case then the codex will be losing some of its flavour, no more cult based radical forces led by a mad inquisitor and his Daemonhosts!

I think the main issue is the Daemonhost. I think one Special Rule can solve it all; "Daemonhost yes, Grey Knights no. Grey Knight yes, Daemonhost no." or maybe even a Special Rule saying Grey Knights will shoot the Daemonhost within sight and range and vice versa or something in that line. I don't want to over-complicate the Inquisitors and their wargear over a trivial matter of distinction of doctrine.

[Marked of Kane]

A few suggestions for GKs. Keep the all GKs able to deep strike idea and why not give them the old teleport attack unique rule. All GKs in reserve are rolled as one but deploy separately.

On FAGKs why not give an option to purchase the gate psychic power for the price of a rhino or drop pod. Increases mobility like mad.

Also maybe make the aegis suit give a 5+ perils save. Gives a little safety net to so holocaust and the gate power can be used without risking the entire squad in case of mind munching.

[Rej]

I think the main issue is the Daemonhost. I think one Special Rule can solve it all; "Daemonhost yes, Grey Knights no. Grey Knight yes, Daemonhost no."

That solves it simply and well enough for me to be satisfied.

Will there be any changes to the daemonhosts themselves? Any thoughts of tweaks there?

[Masked Thespian]

1) How do the Ordo Malleus operate in the background?
Well, I'm pretty sure the current background would suffice e.g. look for daemons and kill it. Of course, I'm more of a militant-type of Inquisitor Lord and I'm sure someone (Masked Thespian) can explain better the more subtle approach of waging the war against Daemons.

I'm quite happy with the current background too.  I don't really want to change too much either as I'm fairly happy with how the OM operate.

2) How should Daemonhunters play on the tabletop?
Like before, Inquisition should have a lot of techno-magic in their sleeves and some exotic Psychic Powers (mostly used against Daemons of course though I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 general-purpose Psychic Powers). They should have as many tricks as the Eldar whilst having an "Iron Fist" comparable to Space Marines (in the form of Grey Knights). Grey Knight would be Assault/Close-Range orientated; Storm Bolter and Nemesis Force Weapons as well as "Assault" Special/Heavy Weapons. Their Shrouding and "Teleport" Special Rules should be able to get them where they need to whilst protecting them from being getting killed by a Railgun 72" away. Summary, Eldar Marines

I mostly agree.  I've always seen the idea of Inquisitors as having a distinctively sneaky bent about them, especially the Radicals.  Ergo, I would suggest that Inquisitors be similar in function to Space Marine Librarians; warrior-Psykers capable of supporting other units but also taking charge and defeating the abhorrent (however, they shouldn't be capable of doing both at once, but have the option during army list building of doing either).  Grey Knights, on the other hand, are the hard line needed when a certain something hits the fan.  They are warrior-monks, capable of besting the worst the forces of Chaos can throw at them and should be able to overcome almost anything.  I agree that Grey Knights should have a close range focus, able to do short range firefights as well as close combat.

3) Will there be any tangible gameplay difference between a Puritan and a Radical army?
Guess not since GW saw fit to tear away the IG Doctrine, Space Marine Traits and Eldar Craftworlds.

I disagree with this sentiment.  Whilst Doctrines and Traits are gone, you can still see successors to those abilities.  Marines get characters granting the whole army new abilities and the Guard get characters with unique sets of (and sometimes unique) Orders.  Ergo, I feel there is enough room to distinguish between the two.

I'd already come up with this idea before Zenny did, but I would suggest we create a rule named Factions; some units, wargear, weapons and psychic powers would have a label of Puritan or Radical and the Factions rule would basically state that no Daemonhunters army may include both Puritan and Radical elements.  There would be plenty of units and equipment WITHOUT either label allowing those things to be taken by both army types.  Ergo, in a simple stroke, you have two distinct army themes; that of the militant, bombastic Puritans backed up by the forces of the Grey Knights, and those of the sneaky, underhanded Radicals whose power is based upon trickery, men and captured Daemonic power.  Linking with the "Special Characters grant unique abilities" bit, you could even have some Special Characters granting one or two specific pieces of the "opposite" Faction (representing Puritans in the process of turning Radical, for example).  For example, you could have a Puritan Inquisitor Special Character armed with a Daemon Weapon, who is gradually turning him more Radical.

Heck, you could even have different versions of the same Special Character (in a similar manner to Manfred the Acolyte and Manfred the Count from Vampire Counts) representing older and more corrupt versions of the same man.

Examples of those with the Puritan rule in the current Codex would probably include Grey Knights and Hierophants and those with the Radical rule would be Daemonhosts and the Daemon Weapons detailed in that White Dwarf article.


I've not got long right now but I've got several other ideas that I will flesh out later but will mention now.

Daemonhosts: there could be two types of Daemonhosts; bound and unbound.  Bound Daemonhosts would become Retinue members, granting Radical Inquisitors additional (and unique) Psychic powers and perhaps close combat ability.  Unbound Daemonhosts would be Elites and could be Monstrous Creatures; amongst other things this gives Radicals some serious hitting power and makes playing them a distinctively difference experience to using Grey Knights.  Obviously we wouldn't give them tabletop powers as described of background Daemonhosts (who have been known to destroy Warlord Titans with a glance) but make them representative of that power.

Grey Knights: These guys should be like the Tomb Kings of Psykers; relentless and unstoppable through a minor yet constant barrage of abilities.  I would suggest allowing each unit to purchase a single psychic ability that didn't require a Psychic test.  Each of these wouldn't be stupidly powerful, in a similar manner to an Eldar Warlock's power, but could represent things like The Shrouding (which I don't believe should be an army-wide special rule any more), Teleport training (granting the equivalent of Heroic Intervention) or something like that.

Inquisitors: These guys should have a huge range of things to choose from (like Lone Wolves and Wolf Guard get), but not be able to do everything at once.  I think this is the key to Inquisitors; they need to be built with a specific function in mind.  Each Faction would have unique equipment, psychic powers, weapons and retinue members, as well as a shared pool of all of those (for example, Hammerhand is a psychic power I'd imagine could be used by either faction but Banishment would likely be Puritan whilst Destroy Daemon be Radical).

[Khanaris]

Well I quite like this, it needs to be properly thought out though, GK's are obviously not tactically retarded. And making it over powered needs to be avoided.

Were you implying they counted as some form of teleporting beacon? So if deepstriking near them they won't scatter?
Or was it more along the lines of forcing GK's to act/head towards and destroy them?
Or was it just a general idea thrown out there to be discussed?

They would just act as teleport homers.  The idea is that the Daemonhunters list has a lot of teleporting units, but few homers.  So they tend to scatter.  Rather than giving them more teleport homers, the idea is that they could be dropping in on the Inquisitors or else they could use enemy icons.  Or they could drop normally and scatter.

[Finn]

I mostly agree.  I've always seen the idea of Inquisitors as having a distinctively sneaky bent about them, especially the Radicals.  Ergo, I would suggest that Inquisitors be similar in function to Space Marine Librarians; warrior-Psykers capable of supporting other units but also taking charge and defeating the abhorrent (however, they shouldn't be capable of doing both at once, but have the option during army list building of doing either).

I was thinking likewise

I'd already come up with this idea before Zenny did, but I would suggest we create a rule named Factions; some units, wargear, weapons and psychic powers would have a label of Puritan or Radical and the Factions rule would basically state that no Daemonhunters army may include both Puritan and Radical elements.  There would be plenty of units and equipment WITHOUT either label allowing those things to be taken by both army types.  Ergo, in a simple stroke, you have two distinct army themes; that of the militant, bombastic Puritans backed up by the forces of the Grey Knights, and those of the sneaky, underhanded Radicals whose power is based upon trickery, men and captured Daemonic power.  Linking with the "Special Characters grant unique abilities" bit, you could even have some Special Characters granting one or two specific pieces of the "opposite" Faction (representing Puritans in the process of turning Radical, for example).  For example, you could have a Puritan Inquisitor Special Character armed with a Daemon Weapon, who is gradually turning him more Radical.

Sounds good; you make a distinction between the 2 factions without adding on too many things though I would like to see the end product to make a final judgment.

Daemonhosts: there could be two types of Daemonhosts; bound and unbound.  Bound Daemonhosts would become Retinue members, granting Radical Inquisitors additional (and unique) Psychic powers and perhaps close combat ability.  Unbound Daemonhosts would be Elites and could be Monstrous Creatures; amongst other things this gives Radicals some serious hitting power and makes playing them a distinctively difference experience to using Grey Knights.  Obviously we wouldn't give them tabletop powers as described of background Daemonhosts (who have been known to destroy Warlord Titans with a glance) but make them representative of that power.

Sounds good. I assume the Unbound Daemonhost will be a S5 T5 Eternal Warrior MC? How many wounds then? 3? Oh then we probably need to have a Puritan only Retinue member.

Grey Knights: These guys should be like the Tomb Kings of Psykers; relentless and unstoppable through a minor yet constant barrage of abilities.  I would suggest allowing each unit to purchase a single psychic ability that didn't require a Psychic test.  Each of these wouldn't be stupidly powerful, in a similar manner to an Eldar Warlock's power, but could represent things like The Shrouding (which I don't believe should be an army-wide special rule any more), Teleport training (granting the equivalent of Heroic Intervention) or something like that.

Sounds fair.

Btw, we should probably stop calling it Retinues and start calling it Henchmen.

[Finn]

Army-wide Special Rules:

Grey Knight
Any models with this Special Rule includes the following Special Rules:

Fearless
Note: Nuff' said.

Grey Knight Assault
Note: Works like Chaos Daemon's Daemonic Assault but if the GK player is playing against a Daemon player, the Grey Knight would always go second.

The Aegis
Note: Works same as before though there are no such things as Minor Psychic Powers.

The Shrouding
Note: Works like Eldar Harlequin's Veil of Tears but 1D6*5" thus giving a Spotting range of 5"-30" between Veil of Tears and Night Fighting.