Author Topic: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex  (Read 25 times)

Sidstyler

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2009, 06:29:58 AM »
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How many people are going to take 2 Thunderhammers

*cough*

Was actually an idea I had for a Salamanders terminator captain when I heard you could take two of them in the new codex.  :P

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2 Bolt Pistols

Cypher.

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2 Power Fists

I think that would be cool, too. Like a Space Marine swordmaster, fighting Florentine style.  :P

Offline Dragonborn Seth

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2009, 06:32:43 AM »
There is actually a tactical reason to take two Fists or Hammers. Power Fists and Thunder Hammers share the same rule as Lightning Claws; they will never receive a two-weapon bonus unless they are equipped with a second Fist, Hammer, or Claws, respectively. Pistols and CCWs will not do the trick. Of course, it is still a massive points sink; in the case of Fists you may be paying 25 points for an extra Attack. Nevertheless, there is reason to do such a thing.

Offline Khanaris

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2009, 06:36:09 AM »
Cypher has a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol.



As a twist, I think teleporting Grey Knights could be able to make use of enemy Chaos Icons as teleport homers. 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 06:48:24 AM by Khanaris »

Offline Finn

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2009, 06:41:34 AM »
Cypher has a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol.
Quote
How many people are going to take 2 Thunderhammers

*cough*

Was actually an idea I had for a Salamanders terminator captain when I heard you could take two of them in the new codex.  :P

Quote
2 Bolt Pistols

Cypher.

Quote
2 Power Fists

I think that would be cool, too. Like a Space Marine swordmaster, fighting Florentine style.  :P
There is actually a tactical reason to take two Fists or Hammers. Power Fists and Thunder Hammers share the same rule as Lightning Claws; they will never receive a two-weapon bonus unless they are equipped with a second Fist, Hammer, or Claws, respectively. Pistols and CCWs will not do the trick. Of course, it is still a massive points sink; in the case of Fists you may be paying 25 points for an extra Attack. Nevertheless, there is reason to do such a thing.
Like I said, it's not going to be a big deal having 2 of the same weapon. Maybe for awesome~ness reasons but that's it.

As a twist, I think teleporting Grey Knights could be able to make use of enemy Icons and HQ Daemons as teleport homers. 
We shall consider your suggestion, Sounds very good on the surface but like many other things, it must be discussed extensively.
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Sidstyler

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2009, 06:48:17 AM »
Cypher has a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol.

...well...it's still a pistol! I was half-right.

Offline Arnorath

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2009, 06:50:22 AM »
As a twist, I think teleporting Grey Knights could be able to make use of enemy Icons and HQ Daemons as teleport homers.
Okay, my initial reaction to that was very strongly in the negative, but now that I've thought about it, i think it'd be kinda cool.  It would represent the Grey Knights specifically targeting important enemy Daemons and icons for high-priority elimination.  It would have to be well restricted, though, or it might easily be abused.

suggestion - only certain squads can make use of this rule (Purgation Squads and the like - specialised elite headhunter units) and / or the ability could be granted by an HQ-only wargear item, so that the character and his squad gain the ability but pay points for it.
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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2009, 11:50:48 AM »
Got the first unit up for review: Ordo Malleus Inquisitor.

Okay, I have some issues with this unit entry.  A lot of them are intangible and undefinable, but the entry itself seems slightly wrong in so many ways.


To begin, I would like to address the issue of the background.  Are we changing anything in the way the Inquisition, specifically the Ordo Malleus, operates?  Are we adding new background (such as a new name for Stormtroopers) and/or removing some older, out of date background?

Also, what armoury are we allocating to Daemonhunters?  Yes, I know we won't have an "Armoury" per se any more, but we still need to define the differences, in weapons and wargear at least, between the Ordos Malleus, Xenos and Hereticus.  Amongst other things, I noticed that you removed Psycannons and Incinerators as weapon options.

We also need to discuss the wargear and weapons' rules themselves.  Will we be keeping transparency between this Codex and, say, Codex: Space Marines (I.e. use the same rules for the Storm Shield, for example) or will we be creating new rules?  What new equipment should we create, based on any new background we've added, and what rules should be allocated to said equipment?  Should we trim out any older pieces and/or update their rules?

As admitted, you've missed out Psychic powers, but I feel these are a major part of a Daemonhunter and should be part of the core.  They should be worked upon well before prices are attached to anything.

Likewise, I feel the Retinue is a major part of how an Inquisitor operates.  In almost every work of fiction I've read about the Inquisition, an Inquisitor relies on his companions to provide services beyond that which he can do himself.  Each Retinue member should be individually weaker than the Inquisitor but specialised in one particular area making them useful.  The current Retinue rules tend to produce overcosted and underpowered units and this is an area I feel needs a major overhaul.  Again, with respect to creating new background, can we create new Retinue members?

For the Inquisitor himself, may I ask why you've increased his Leadership?  Also, you've not actually reduced his points cost (though you have added free grenades) and moved him from Elites to HQ for no apparent reason.  Should an Inquisitional list no longer be representative of a conclave of Inquisitors and instead be representative of a single Inquisitor's private army?


I feel there are a load of questions here that need to be answered (and I'm not just referring to the ones I've just mentioned).  At a minimum, we need to ask ourselves, "How do the Ordo Malleus operate in the background?", "How should Daemonhunters play on the tabletop?" and "Will there be any tangible gameplay difference between a Puritan and a Radical army?" before we even consider posting ANY further unit entries, stat blocks, weapons or wargear rules or anything like that.  Without getting the basic building blocks in place, anything else we make will simply come tumbling down.

Please don't feel that I'm trying to have a go at you, Zenny; it just seems that you and I have slightly different ideas regarding the genesis of an army list.  It probably doesn't help that I absolutely love Daemonhunters and, as such, I want to see them done right.
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Offline Finn

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2009, 04:34:07 PM »
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To begin, I would like to address the issue of the background.  Are we changing anything in the way the Inquisition, specifically the Ordo Malleus, operates?  Are we adding new background (such as a new name for Stormtroopers) and/or removing some older, out of date background?
I dare not touch the mainstream fluff to be honest. Just trying to update and balance the DH justifying it with whatever fluff we got at hand and we're pretty much lacking in it especially for Grey Knights. And honestly, I'm grinding my dyi over the Storm Trooper issue.

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Also, what armoury are we allocating to Daemonhunters?  Yes, I know we won't have an "Armoury" per se any more, but we still need to define the differences, in weapons and wargear at least, between the Ordos Malleus, Xenos and Hereticus.  Amongst other things, I noticed that you removed Psycannons and Incinerators as weapon options.
Well, whatever it's in the DH Armory we're going to salvage some of them whilst phasing out (which I'm seeing in the other 5th Edition Codex) some of the gear like Auspex and Bionics whilst keeping enough of them to define us as Ordo Malleus like they did with Space Wolves e.g. Wolf Tail Talisman and Wolftooth Necklace. Also, I've never found the idea of leaders going around carrying heavy weapons even those in Terminator Armor to be a nice-looking picture. Anyway, he has better things to do; they way I hope we're going to do the Inquisitors is that they're able to have a define role; Support e.g. Eldar's Farseer or IG's Command Squad or Offensive e.g. Ork's Warboss or Space Wolves' Wolf Lord.

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We also need to discuss the wargear and weapons' rules themselves.  Will we be keeping transparency between this Codex and, say, Codex: Space Marines (I.e. use the same rules for the Storm Shield, for example) or will we be creating new rules?  What new equipment should we create, based on any new background we've added, and what rules should be allocated to said equipment?  Should we trim out any older pieces and/or update their rules?
We will definitely try to make the wargear work the same as their counterparts in other real 5th Edition Codices. I wanna try to cut out the fuss over the same piece of wargear but works differently over different codices. No new wargear for now. I think we have a pretty good closet of them currently in the current DH Codex. Just need to make them shine again. So, yes; trim out any older pieces and/or update their rules.

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As admitted, you've missed out Psychic powers, but I feel these are a major part of a Daemonhunter and should be part of the core.  They should be worked upon well before prices are attached to anything.
I was hoping I can delegate this task to you; I'm never one to trust Psychic Powers. Call me Ol' Skool Guard Commander but that's my opinion.

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Likewise, I feel the Retinue is a major part of how an Inquisitor operates.  In almost every work of fiction I've read about the Inquisition, an Inquisitor relies on his companions to provide services beyond that which he can do himself.  Each Retinue member should be individually weaker than the Inquisitor but specialised in one particular area making them useful.  The current Retinue rules tend to produce overcosted and underpowered units and this is an area I feel needs a major overhaul.  Again, with respect to creating new background, can we create new Retinue members?
K.I.S.S.; this is going to be difficult to achieve especially when you can be so.....creative with them. They're going to have such an extensive wargear that could put Wolf Guard to shame whilst having so many and colorful unit range that I have yet to see any of the other codices rival (Maybe Company Command Squads and their Regimental Advisors but I'm sure they don't come close to that even). Again, this is going to pretty hard and we're going to go over it for a few months to get it right. Lemme see what you got and I'll go thru it.

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For the Inquisitor himself, may I ask why you've increased his Leadership?  Also, you've not actually reduced his points cost (though you have added free grenades) and moved him from Elites to HQ for no apparent reason.  Should an Inquisitional list no longer be representative of a conclave of Inquisitors and instead be representative of a single Inquisitor's private army?
Well, I thought we needed a slightly cheaper HQ choice and I see little reason to have him on the Elite slot. The Ld thing just to show that they're mentally-fortified than a IG Sergeant. Conclave of Inquisitors.........easier to put them in HQs since they're also their to help carry out orders. I dunno...

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I feel there are a load of questions here that need to be answered (and I'm not just referring to the ones I've just mentioned).  At a minimum, we need to ask ourselves, "How do the Ordo Malleus operate in the background?", "How should Daemonhunters play on the tabletop?" and "Will there be any tangible gameplay difference between a Puritan and a Radical army?" before we even consider posting ANY further unit entries, stat blocks, weapons or wargear rules or anything like that.  Without getting the basic building blocks in place, anything else we make will simply come tumbling down.
Aye, I guess I was getting ahead of myself.

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Please don't feel that I'm trying to have a go at you, Zenny; it just seems that you and I have slightly different ideas regarding the genesis of an army list.  It probably doesn't help that I absolutely love Daemonhunters and, as such, I want to see them done right.
I know you know your stuff and you aren't such a Fan-wanking Weaboo like I've seen in some other parts of the forum ::) So, no offense taken. Bitter Medicine, Good Health.
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Offline Finn

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2009, 04:45:14 PM »
Alright, let's start over:

1) How do the Ordo Malleus operate in the background?
Well, I'm pretty sure the current background would suffice e.g. look for daemons and kill it. Of course, I'm more of a militant-type of Inquisitor Lord and I'm sure someone (Masked Thespian) can explain better the more subtle approach of waging the war against Daemons.

2) How should Daemonhunters play on the tabletop?
Like before, Inquisition should have a lot of techno-magic in their sleeves and some exotic Psychic Powers (mostly used against Daemons of course though I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 general-purpose Psychic Powers). They should have as many tricks as the Eldar whilst having an "Iron Fist" comparable to Space Marines (in the form of Grey Knights). Grey Knight would be Assault/Close-Range orientated; Storm Bolter and Nemesis Force Weapons as well as "Assault" Special/Heavy Weapons. Their Shrouding and "Teleport" Special Rules should be able to get them where they need to whilst protecting them from being getting killed by a Railgun 72" away. Summary, Eldar Marines :P

3) Will there be any tangible gameplay difference between a Puritan and a Radical army?
Guess not since GW saw fit to tear away the IG Doctrine, Space Marine Traits and Eldar Craftworlds.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 02:38:02 AM by Zenai »
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Offline Notanoob

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2009, 07:29:37 PM »
I always got the idea that GKs simply a. teleported into the Daemon Vessal's crib and b. blasted him to bits with all sorts of cool gadgets and Psykic Powers. Never have I thought of them as 'Land Raider Mech' 'DP assault' or anything like that. The problem with this is that it would mean that they would be PAGKs, GKTs, and a ton of awsome wargear+special rules. I.E. Homing in on enemy Homing Becans, Chaos Icons, etc. Teleporting when already on the battlefield, and having everything ignore invulnerable saves.

When you throw in an Inquisitor, I think they kind of sneak up on the enemy, then brutalize them in whatever way they prefer (shooting, assaulting, or psyking powers). DP dreds would be acceptable here, along with LRs with Infiltrate.  :P

Radicals means basically throwing in all sorts of Chaos Wargear+definitely homing in on Chaos Icons. I would think of Radicals as S3 T3 Chaos lords from 3rd edition.

Offline Finn

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2009, 02:40:14 AM »
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Radicals means basically throwing in all sorts of Chaos Wargear+definitely homing in on Chaos Icons. I would think of Radicals as S3 T3 Chaos lords from 3rd edition.
I don't see any reason to have a distinction between Radicals and Puritans since GW saw fit to let us do whatever we want.
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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2009, 03:28:42 AM »
What would guys think about the idea of having a 'Bank' retinue member be available to an Inquisitor? They do make use of them, when they can find them. So it would fit the fluff.

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2009, 04:19:11 AM »
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Radicals means basically throwing in all sorts of Chaos Wargear+definitely homing in on Chaos Icons. I would think of Radicals as S3 T3 Chaos lords from 3rd edition.
I don't see any reason to have a distinction between Radicals and Puritans since GW saw fit to let us do whatever we want.

I think there needs to be some form of Distinction.

An obvious radical for example shouldn't be able to fight along side Grey Knights while a puritan would attack a daemonhost before doing anything else. This is how it works in the codex at the moment, and it makes sense.

Or, are you saying there shouldn't be any items or choices that defines a difference between radical and puritan, ie, game wise they don't exist, just an inquisitor does.
If thats the case then the codex will be losing some of its flavour, no more cult based radical forces led by a mad inquisitor and his Daemonhosts!



Will Valkyries be added in as Transport options?
I assume they would be, Inquisitors have vast resources.



I don't think bringing back adversaries would help, forcing Grey Knights to only play Daemons and Chaos, sure its fluffy as hell. But say, None of my friends play Daemons, and I don't have the money to buy them a force to play with, Grey Knights are already very expensive.
And sure, Grey Knights fighting anything other then Vile Warp Spawn is rare, but it still happens and it isn't to difficult to come up with reasons why. Examples are even given in the current codex.


Offline Khanaris

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2009, 05:17:06 AM »
The suggestion about homing in on Chaos Icons wasn't to imply that the Inquisitor is using them in some way.  Rather, they are just very obvious focuses of corruption, and that should make it easier for the Grey Knights to see them.  In terms of gameplay, it forces Chaos players to be a little more careful about where their icons are.

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2009, 05:23:00 AM »
The suggestion about homing in on Chaos Icons wasn't to imply that the Inquisitor is using them in some way.  Rather, they are just very obvious focuses of corruption, and that should make it easier for the Grey Knights to see them.  In terms of gameplay, it forces Chaos players to be a little more careful about where their icons are.

Well I quite like this, it needs to be properly thought out though, GK's are obviously not tactically retarded. And making it over powered needs to be avoided.

Were you implying they counted as some form of teleporting beacon? So if deepstriking near them they won't scatter?
Or was it more along the lines of forcing GK's to act/head towards and destroy them?
Or was it just a general idea thrown out there to be discussed?

Offline Finn

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2009, 05:48:57 AM »
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Radicals means basically throwing in all sorts of Chaos Wargear+definitely homing in on Chaos Icons. I would think of Radicals as S3 T3 Chaos lords from 3rd edition.
I don't see any reason to have a distinction between Radicals and Puritans since GW saw fit to let us do whatever we want.

I think there needs to be some form of Distinction.

An obvious radical for example shouldn't be able to fight along side Grey Knights while a puritan would attack a daemonhost before doing anything else. This is how it works in the codex at the moment, and it makes sense.

Or, are you saying there shouldn't be any items or choices that defines a difference between radical and puritan, ie, game wise they don't exist, just an inquisitor does.
If thats the case then the codex will be losing some of its flavour, no more cult based radical forces led by a mad inquisitor and his Daemonhosts!
I think the main issue is the Daemonhost. I think one Special Rule can solve it all; "Daemonhost yes, Grey Knights no. Grey Knight yes, Daemonhost no." or maybe even a Special Rule saying Grey Knights will shoot the Daemonhost within sight and range and vice versa or something in that line. I don't want to over-complicate the Inquisitors and their wargear over a trivial matter of distinction of doctrine.

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Offline Marked of Kane

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2009, 09:29:57 AM »
A few suggestions for GKs. Keep the all GKs able to deep strike idea and why not give them the old teleport attack unique rule. All GKs in reserve are rolled as one but deploy separately.

On FAGKs why not give an option to purchase the gate psychic power for the price of a rhino or drop pod. Increases mobility like mad.

Also maybe make the aegis suit give a 5+ perils save. Gives a little safety net to so holocaust and the gate power can be used without risking the entire squad in case of mind munching.

Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2009, 12:01:42 PM »
I think the main issue is the Daemonhost. I think one Special Rule can solve it all; "Daemonhost yes, Grey Knights no. Grey Knight yes, Daemonhost no."

That solves it simply and well enough for me to be satisfied.

Will there be any changes to the daemonhosts themselves? Any thoughts of tweaks there?

Offline Masked Thespian

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2009, 01:53:15 PM »
1) How do the Ordo Malleus operate in the background?
Well, I'm pretty sure the current background would suffice e.g. look for daemons and kill it. Of course, I'm more of a militant-type of Inquisitor Lord and I'm sure someone (Masked Thespian) can explain better the more subtle approach of waging the war against Daemons.

I'm quite happy with the current background too.  I don't really want to change too much either as I'm fairly happy with how the OM operate.


2) How should Daemonhunters play on the tabletop?
Like before, Inquisition should have a lot of techno-magic in their sleeves and some exotic Psychic Powers (mostly used against Daemons of course though I wouldn't mind 1 or 2 general-purpose Psychic Powers). They should have as many tricks as the Eldar whilst having an "Iron Fist" comparable to Space Marines (in the form of Grey Knights). Grey Knight would be Assault/Close-Range orientated; Storm Bolter and Nemesis Force Weapons as well as "Assault" Special/Heavy Weapons. Their Shrouding and "Teleport" Special Rules should be able to get them where they need to whilst protecting them from being getting killed by a Railgun 72" away. Summary, Eldar Marines :P

I mostly agree.  I've always seen the idea of Inquisitors as having a distinctively sneaky bent about them, especially the Radicals.  Ergo, I would suggest that Inquisitors be similar in function to Space Marine Librarians; warrior-Psykers capable of supporting other units but also taking charge and defeating the abhorrent (however, they shouldn't be capable of doing both at once, but have the option during army list building of doing either).  Grey Knights, on the other hand, are the hard line needed when a certain something hits the fan.  They are warrior-monks, capable of besting the worst the forces of Chaos can throw at them and should be able to overcome almost anything.  I agree that Grey Knights should have a close range focus, able to do short range firefights as well as close combat.


3) Will there be any tangible gameplay difference between a Puritan and a Radical army?
Guess not since GW saw fit to tear away the IG Doctrine, Space Marine Traits and Eldar Craftworlds.

I disagree with this sentiment.  Whilst Doctrines and Traits are gone, you can still see successors to those abilities.  Marines get characters granting the whole army new abilities and the Guard get characters with unique sets of (and sometimes unique) Orders.  Ergo, I feel there is enough room to distinguish between the two.

I'd already come up with this idea before Zenny did, but I would suggest we create a rule named Factions; some units, wargear, weapons and psychic powers would have a label of Puritan or Radical and the Factions rule would basically state that no Daemonhunters army may include both Puritan and Radical elements.  There would be plenty of units and equipment WITHOUT either label allowing those things to be taken by both army types.  Ergo, in a simple stroke, you have two distinct army themes; that of the militant, bombastic Puritans backed up by the forces of the Grey Knights, and those of the sneaky, underhanded Radicals whose power is based upon trickery, men and captured Daemonic power.  Linking with the "Special Characters grant unique abilities" bit, you could even have some Special Characters granting one or two specific pieces of the "opposite" Faction (representing Puritans in the process of turning Radical, for example).  For example, you could have a Puritan Inquisitor Special Character armed with a Daemon Weapon, who is gradually turning him more Radical.

Heck, you could even have different versions of the same Special Character (in a similar manner to Manfred the Acolyte and Manfred the Count from Vampire Counts) representing older and more corrupt versions of the same man.

Examples of those with the Puritan rule in the current Codex would probably include Grey Knights and Hierophants and those with the Radical rule would be Daemonhosts and the Daemon Weapons detailed in that White Dwarf article.



I've not got long right now but I've got several other ideas that I will flesh out later but will mention now.

Daemonhosts: there could be two types of Daemonhosts; bound and unbound.  Bound Daemonhosts would become Retinue members, granting Radical Inquisitors additional (and unique) Psychic powers and perhaps close combat ability.  Unbound Daemonhosts would be Elites and could be Monstrous Creatures; amongst other things this gives Radicals some serious hitting power and makes playing them a distinctively difference experience to using Grey Knights.  Obviously we wouldn't give them tabletop powers as described of background Daemonhosts (who have been known to destroy Warlord Titans with a glance) but make them representative of that power.

Grey Knights: These guys should be like the Tomb Kings of Psykers; relentless and unstoppable through a minor yet constant barrage of abilities.  I would suggest allowing each unit to purchase a single psychic ability that didn't require a Psychic test.  Each of these wouldn't be stupidly powerful, in a similar manner to an Eldar Warlock's power, but could represent things like The Shrouding (which I don't believe should be an army-wide special rule any more), Teleport training (granting the equivalent of Heroic Intervention) or something like that.

Inquisitors: These guys should have a huge range of things to choose from (like Lone Wolves and Wolf Guard get), but not be able to do everything at once.  I think this is the key to Inquisitors; they need to be built with a specific function in mind.  Each Faction would have unique equipment, psychic powers, weapons and retinue members, as well as a shared pool of all of those (for example, Hammerhand is a psychic power I'd imagine could be used by either faction but Banishment would likely be Puritan whilst Destroy Daemon be Radical).
Regards,
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Offline Khanaris

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Re: Let's "update" the Daemonhunter Codex
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2009, 07:12:25 PM »
Well I quite like this, it needs to be properly thought out though, GK's are obviously not tactically retarded. And making it over powered needs to be avoided.

Were you implying they counted as some form of teleporting beacon? So if deepstriking near them they won't scatter?
Or was it more along the lines of forcing GK's to act/head towards and destroy them?
Or was it just a general idea thrown out there to be discussed?

They would just act as teleport homers.  The idea is that the Daemonhunters list has a lot of teleporting units, but few homers.  So they tend to scatter.  Rather than giving them more teleport homers, the idea is that they could be dropping in on the Inquisitors or else they could use enemy icons.  Or they could drop normally and scatter.