Author Topic: [Apoc] Purgicator  (Read 13 times)

Offline crisis_vyper

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6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« on: January 12, 2012, 01:05:31 AM »
As many of you are aware, a leaked playtest rulebook and accompanying FAQ have been made available on the internet. Reading some of the rumours, it correlates with the weird upgrades in some of the newer codices and from the looks of it, some of the mechanics of 2nd-4th edition are making a comeback. BOLS, Blood of Kittens, etc are all raving about it, and I ought to give 2S its own thread about this particular '6th' rulebook.

My personal opinion? We are all going down a very bumpy ride if some of these are true......
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 08:01:50 PM by Farseer Del »

Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2012, 01:16:35 AM »
FAR too many changes that just are not needed, which will make us have to totally change our armies, which is of course what they want. More models sold. Thanks GW.

The changes are massive. Its nothing like the changes between 3rd and 5th. This is like 2nd into 3rd, maybe even bigger.
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Offline cazboab

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Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2012, 01:48:47 AM »
If the leaked book is genuine, I think it has the potential not to suck with some fine tuning, but the changes to the phase order, template and assault weapons are needlessly complex and in particular screw craftworld eldar royaly.

Offline BigToof

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Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 02:54:13 AM »
I'm still wondering as to it's validity.  Much of it does seem a rehash with the same verbage used from 5th edition.
There are far too many new rules, but it does address a lot of 5th ed. issues.
Namely, bringing down cover saves (intervening units no longer offer saves, 5+ for most things), making Tank shocking "more vulnerable" (as the whole unit gets to shoot at you if you come at them) and (my personal favorite), lets you throw templates into fire points to damage the unit inside.
A lot of it is pretty raw, and I get the feeling that if it "is" real, then it's a very early version.
DE changes make me wince and want to go WWP and buy as many Hexrifles as I can (you can allocate wounds as a sniper).
Ork changes make me want to buy a horde of Gretchin as bullet catching would be semi-legitamite.  Letting Weirdboyz block Psycics on 5+ is a nice... uh... something.  Boosting Tank shooting with Meks is also very Orky.
Assault is overall odd and I'm not sure if Orks would do well out of it.
But the biggest winners?
Sisters.
I'm not kidding.  All flame weapons for cooking transports, meltas for breaking them open, and now that escaping combat is a number that is (mostly) the same across the board, you'll be fine.
.
..
...
Ok, Tyranids and Tau got pretty ugly too.

Best,
-BT

Offline El ShasOcho

Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2012, 02:59:36 AM »
The fact that this seems to un-nerf sisters tau and nids like BT said makes me think either this is GW trying to get all of the power gamers to dump the power armor and jump to those armies, OR this is all made up by someone who hates marines and how much GW loves them. The reason I can see it being the first is that that is certainly GW's style, people might think "Oh they're fixing the balance" when they're actually just shifting it to armies nobody plays right now.
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Awesome. Now the americans (and any british troops with translator chips) can fire at +1 BS!!!
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Offline Kur'os

Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 03:04:05 AM »
I'm sorry to say it, but I'm not familiar with the sites listed.  Would it be possible for someone to post a link? 

Just with what posts I've read here, I'm liking the sound of 6th ed.  Would it be fair to say that shooting might be more prevalent than CC in said edition?

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Offline El ShasOcho

Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 03:10:50 AM »
I haven't found the actual leak, just people talking/listing whats in it. Just google wh40 6th ed leaks and you should find plenty on it.
AKA: Marcus (E,TD) Salman (E,UD) and the GM in FTGG


Although, it must be said, one should always have a Fantasy in
mind whilst playing with yourself...
Awesome. Now the americans (and any british troops with translator chips) can fire at +1 BS!!!
With a deep freezer and a sufficiently powerful catapult, I can also kill you with my brain  :lion:

Quote from: Thantos
Ok its time to go an impregnate someone in the name of making an internet hit! :P
Its a lot easier to beat some one when they don't know you are competing.

Offline cazboab

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Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 03:21:07 AM »
Would it be fair to say that shooting might be more prevalent than CC in said edition?
In a few very specific ways it may be, but I'm inclined to say its mostly only removing the option to shoot before you charge, and CC armies will still be the best way to do a lot of damage quickly.

Offline crisis_vyper

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Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 04:40:28 AM »
I'm sorry to say it, but I'm not familiar with the sites listed.  Would it be possible for someone to post a link? 

Well, to be honest, it is popping up in a lot of 40k-based blogs and I found the leaked rules using Google, so I think it is easier done than said. Besides if I were to link to the leaked book, it would be pulled down anyway. So for now I guess you will have to hear it from the bloggers.

Offline Dragonborn Seth

Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2012, 04:45:14 AM »
You guys may discuss the rules, and link to websites and blogs discussing the rules, but under no circumstance will a link to a download of the rules be posted, because this is potentially copyrighted material, and we will treat it like any other GW release in that regard.

I think this is almost definitely a legitimate leak. We've seen this in the past, with the Grey Knights, and with the 5th ed rulebook. And, if it were a hoax, it is an extremely elaborate one. I wouldn't bet on every one of the rules in here making it all of the way to the final product, and definitely not without having some wording touched up a bit whether they need it or not, but I'd put money on this being an authentic document.

Offline Mabbz

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Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 09:36:59 AM »
Close combat is worse for us in that charge ranges are doubled.

Please tell me you're joking. With that rule even guard could potentially make a turn one charge (with rough riders, 6" move, d6" run, 24" assault), so fast assault armies will get their entire army in cc by turn two at the latest.
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Offline Pottsey

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Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2012, 03:20:19 PM »
Taken another read of the Rules. These bits stand out to me as a Tau Player.

BS is now rolled against Evasion (EV). For the most part Evasion is based on speed. Evasion stats at a base value of 3 and you apply modifies like remaining stationary is -1 EV, if you are massive +1. so a BS3 Firewarriors hits on 4+. BS3 against EV hits on 2+. If within 12” cannot have EV better then 3 due to point blank range. Looks to me the most modules will be EV 3 when moving and EV 2 when not. Firewarriors hitting stationary targets on 3+. HQ Firewarrers now hit stationary on 2+ should be fun mixed in with new shooting rules.

Relentless does all the stuff as before as well as boosts rapid fire range to 18” instead of 12”. 6 plasma shots per Battlesuit at 18”!!! Then finish it off with a Burst and Fusion shot per suit just for good measure. (Can someone else read this sounds too good to me, perhaps I misread something)

AP3 now bypass’s Feel Know Pain.

Broken troops are destroyed if they are within 12” of enemy units at the start of their Movement phase.

Looks like Fearless comes in three levels. Level 1 can be pinned just they suffer no negative modifiers. Level 2 cannot be pinned. Fearless level 3 pass all moral checks.

Airborn units (Battlesuits) ignore the dangerous and difficult terrain types but can still swoop down and get cover from them. Go Battlesuits.

Fallback/sweeping advance has change a lot. The simple version is role a 5+ to break off combat or get destroyed. If squad leader Initiative is higher than pursuing unit breakoff is 4+.

Offline Shaslain

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Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2012, 06:17:58 PM »
Yea, we were talking about the leak at my LGS just yesterday. And for the most part I like the huge changes, it gives the game an entirely new feel. The best part is that you have the option to still play 5th if you want to or accept the new rules. From what I read in the rules, I think my Tau army is getting a HUGE bump in effectiveness which makes me happy.

The only problem I have is with the Blood Angels having all fast vehicles, if you have the leak and read about the new vehicle rules then you will understand what I am saying. Other than that I think its a home run!
Sod it, I prefer the moral high ground. When I play Tau, I know I can look any marine, guard, tyranid player in the eye and know I am better than them.
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Offline Pottsey

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Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 10:25:31 PM »
Ok these rules are fake! I know because they just made ethereal's great. Suicide an ethereal and your whole army gets preferred enemy for close combat and shooting. Plus no one runs off the board, worse case you fail the test and are shaken which means cannot perform support actions, run, limited to 1 shot per turn while shaken.

If you take Aun-Va you get preferred enemy and Furious charge. Did Game workshop just make Tau good at CC? stg 6 battlesuits hitting on 3+ in CC! These rules have to be fake.

Offline Watchdog

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Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2012, 11:42:07 PM »
Ok these rules are fake! I know because they just made ethereal's great. Suicide an ethereal and your whole army gets preferred enemy for close combat and shooting. Plus no one runs off the board, worse case you fail the test and are shaken which means cannot perform support actions, run, limited to 1 shot per turn while shaken.

If you take Aun-Va you get preferred enemy and Furious charge. Did Game workshop just make Tau good at CC? stg 6 battlesuits hitting on 3+ in CC! These rules have to be fake.

If we are reading the same leak, it says that if a regular Ethereal dies you only get the Preferred Enemy against the unit who killed the Ethereal and if it is a vehicle, too bad, since it only works against infantry. Am I right?
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Offline Zeeblee

Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2012, 08:06:47 PM »
Personally I've never found problems killing marines.  And this is playing with primarily AP4/5 weaponry.  The real issue with 5th edition is how easy it is to get a 4+ cover save. This makes it so low AP weaponry isn't actually all that valuable, but torrent fire is.  I've been playing with that mentality since beginning the game since I didn't really have options for better firepower, but looking at other armies who would enjoy using those guns I can see the problem(s).

Offline Tempest Six Two

Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2012, 09:53:59 PM »
4 and above.  Strength 4 = -1 save modifier, Strength 5 = -2, Strength 6 = -3 and so on.  40k, in Second Edition, used to have identical rules in this regard.

Very true MT- I got my 2nd edition rulebooks out last night and read through all the armour save stuff again, and TBH they should just cut and dump it back into 6th edition- at least we know the grammar will be correct, as most 2nd edition stuff appears to have been written by actual english people with a solid grasp on the english language. As opposed to the monkeys in charge at the moment....

Oh, and SUSTAINED FIRE DICE!! Remember kids- two jams and you can fire next turn, roll three jams and your assault cannon explodes!! Or you can be lucky and get 9 shots off :)

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Offline Dragonborn Seth

Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2012, 10:05:12 PM »
The real issue with 5th edition is how easy it is to get a 4+ cover save.

If the leak and rumours are anything to go by, the new 'average' cover save will be a 5+ in 6th, with a 4+ being reserved for ruins. I'm all for making terrain cover saves more diverse. As it stands, 4+ makes up the overwhelming majority of cover, with a 5+ being bad and a 6+ being completely worthless and thankfully rare. Changing 5+ to the 'middle-ground' would be totally fine with me, though my Tyranids aren't going to enjoy it. :P

Offline knightperson

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Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2012, 02:14:50 AM »
[snip]
40K doesn't do that. In 40K, the side with the most killy stuff wins. It doesn't matter that your Chapter Master is surrounded by 108 Gaunts, he still wins because he killed more of them. If 40K was done right, the Tyranid player would just sit there and announce "you need to kill more Gaunts than you have attacks in order to win this fight!" and allow combat resolution to kill the guy for him.

That's a 5th edition thing. In 4th the combat modifier was based on how many of each side were involved in the combat, not how many had previously died. Some of the tyranid upgrades (like for the carnifex) said that it counted as 10 models rather than 1 for purposes of outnumbering in melee. But that system had weaknesses too. 8 terminators who just killed 14 of 31 termagants without losing any of their own could still be scared by the fact that they were "outnumbered 2 to 1", which didn't make much sense.

Quote
Armour Modifiers would go some way to rebalancing this clusterfuck of a system. Ditching Invuns would be even better, since that means we'd see an end to half the klkn Space Marine players insist on pulling.

I don't think invulnerables are the problem. They are reasonably rare and tend to be weaker than the regular saves. Dark Eldar Wyches have a 4+ invuln but only in melee. A couple of their characters have a 2+, but only until he fails it once. Daemons all have invulnerables, but most of them are 5+; Tzeentch units have 4+ and the Lord of Change has a 3+, but they are either expensive or vulnerable to melee. The only thing I can think of that has a constant, good invulnerable save is the assault terminator. Yes, a 2+/3+ is a pain to deal with, but the models are expensive and just as vulnerable to a torrent of fire as a terminator with a 2+/5+. First-Rank-Fire-Second-Rank-Fire, markerlight-assisted Fish Of Fury, Bladestorm, or several other things will usually get rid of them. They're only twice as hard to kill with massed fire as a regular space marine, but cost significantly more than twice as much, don't they?

Now a strong enough attack modifying armor save might make sense, but only if it starts fairly high. A strength 5 or 6 hit should not reduce an armor save for a toughness 4 character since you're getting more wounds. Now if you get to a strength of +3, maybe that should drop the save by one, but the situations where it would matter are small enough that I don't think it's worth the extra arithmetic. I think a better system would be if the AP stat was a modifier, although that would require turning everything upside-down. Maybe if AP is turned into an armor save modifier of "5 minus AP." So an AP3 weapon would worsen the armor save by 2, giving space marines a 5+, terminators a 4+, and anything with a 5+ or worse would get nothing at all. An AP1 weapon would worsen the save by 4, giving terminators a 6+, but nobody else would get anything.

The math would be kind of a pain I admit, but it still wouldn't be as bad as the AD&D 2nd edition's concept of THAC0 and negative armor classes that a few of us might be able to remember, and everybody just dealt with that!
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Offline knightperson

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Re: 6th edition leak - What do you guys think?
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2012, 09:31:36 AM »
That's a 5th edition thing. In 4th the combat modifier was based on how many of each side were involved in the combat, not how many had previously died. Some of the tyranid upgrades (like for the carnifex) said that it counted as 10 models rather than 1 for purposes of outnumbering in melee. But that system had weaknesses too. 8 terminators who just killed 14 of 31 termagants without losing any of their own could still be scared by the fact that they were "outnumbered 2 to 1", which didn't make much sense.
How does that not make sense? The Terminators have just spent 10-20 seconds emptying their mags, hacking with their weapons and generally unleashing all the killing power they possess, and yet the Gaunts still don't seem to have thinned out! Have you never watched Zulu, or 300, or Aliens?

Well, because they killed almost half of the bugs without losing a single one of the Emperor's Finest. Both systems have problems. With the 4th edition version and the example above, it wouldn't make sense that the terminators would have a morale check at minus 2 or something because they are clearly winning. In 5th edition rules, same scenario, the tyranids would take 14 No Retreat armor saves, which makes sense. But if there were another 30 gants in the mix, the gants would still take them even though they have a much better chance of winning.
Quote

Now with the Invuns, the issue is they are getting way, way too high. They are also getting far too common. The point of AP was that you either got lots of attacks, or one really powerful attack. In short, the power-attack was meant to pretty much guarantee a kill versus whatever you shot. Ergo, you shot tough stuff with big guns, and weak stuff with little guns.

Invuns being so common, you now have to shoot tough stuff with little guns, because Terminators get a 3+ save against anti-tank weaponry. That leaves you with the situation of not having any little guns left for the weaker units, and no targets worth hitting with your big guns... well, except the obligatory three Land Raiders carrying these 3+ Invun models.

We need to go back to this shtlk making sense, and taking away Invulnerable Saves would do that. If not across the board, then take them off the Space Marines.

As I hinted above, there are going to be situations in nearly any rules mechanic where stuff doesn't make sense. But I still don't see why this is a Space Marine problem (although there are plenty of other things that are). Can you give an example of the "plentiful, strong Invulnerable Saves" that you keep saying Space Marines get? Assault terminators are the only things I can think of, and as I said they're expensive.
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