Author Topic: the cytherian annexation battlesuits  (Read 19 times)

Online The Man They Call Jayne

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the cytherian annexation battlesuits
« on: November 27, 2009, 02:51:29 AM »
mods, move this thread if its in the wrong place, couldnt find a better one,

in the BOB, in the middle section, where it describes the various races, thee is a section for the tau marked The Cytherian Annexation.

at the top of the firs page there are 2 battlesuits

a "Brightwind" and a "Fireknife"

now im not 100% on what a brightwind is (its displayed as a burstcannon, plasma rifle), but i am damned sure that a fireknife is not TwinLinked Fusion Blasters.

just another example of GWs amazing proof reading i guess.

anybody else seen glaring mistakes like this in the rulebooks?
Ja'nus (E,TD) Farooq (E,UD) Ko'Rah (FTGG) Magnus (The Heresy) Wothan (Might and Magic) Sir (to the rest of you)

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Everything is an ork weapon eventually.

Jayne is correct.

There's no rule in any rulebook saying that you can't do it.  But there's also no rule in print saying that I can't hire an industrial woodchipper and feed your models into it if you do so.

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Elliott

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Re: the cytherian annexation battlesuits
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2009, 04:12:39 AM »
Yep.
- The 5th edition Codex: Imperial Guard really decided to screw up the timeline (or, hopefully, is just patently wrong). Check out a detailed explanation here.
- We don't actually know when Farsight got his name, fought the Arkunasha War, or defected. Detailed discussion here.
- We can only conjecture as to when Nimbosa was actually occupied by the Tau and retaken by the Imperium (see footnotes to timeline here). And though there are references to the Tau re-conquering Nimbosa, they are sketchy at best.
- Planetstrike confuses references to Gnosis Prime in 786.M41 and Kiliak in 838.M41. Check out an explination here.
- Lastly, the Ultramarines 3rd company liberate the Lagan system from the Tau Empire in both 989.M41 and 989.999.M41. Not such a big deal, really.

Offline SILKiam

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And they shall know no drybrush.
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2012, 02:56:40 PM »
Okay, I'm currently in the process of selling my Blood Angels off and it has gotten me to thinking - why did I buy them in the first place? Aside from a small campaign and a tournie they haven't done much. When I look at the army list I can't help but shake my head and ask just what I have become. Whilst it is true that I do enjoy playing competitive games I just didn't enjoy the list that I made - it really did just devolve down into your usual net list and it sapped all fun out of the game when you realise you have the exact same army as the bloke opposite of you.

So today I have decided that I will sit down and actually think what I want from a space marine army. Consider this a self referencing rant or a log for various notes. Use it as a plan yourself if you want.

Time to delve into the depths of an amateur dramatic wargamer.

Why do I actually want a Space Marine army?

It's Warhammer 40,000. Space marines are the Iconic race, the main image of the game. It has always been an army lurking at the back of my mind. Yes, there are alot of space marine armies out there. but I wanted my space marines to be special. The vast majority of space marine armies that I have seen have been quickly drybrushed and washed with very little attention to detail. If I was going to do a space marine army I wanted it to make peoples day, the best damn space marine army they have seen.

Unfortunately that idea seems to have been lost along the way.

I suppose the ultime answer to the question as to why I want a space marine army is because I am still a child inside when it comes to Warhammer 40,000. The very earliest images of this game are of space marines. Well, space marines and Orks. And I still harkon back to those days. Images of massed bolter fire, of robotic like warriors, acting like a well oiled machine.

Put simply

It is all down to the art work.

My love of warhammer is very much image driven. These are not playing pieces or toy soldiers. They exist to act out a battle that never happened. When I think about an army I get multiple different art works in my head that just conjure up the image of what I want. However, there is something very disturbing about the current generation of space marines and it is this:



Notice anything? How about if you campare it to this early Dark Angel cover:



Bling. There is far too much bling in todays space marine models. Too much stuffthat just clutters up the image of what a space marine is. Yes, some might say that plain old powered armoured bodies are boring. But adding a million purity seals, skulls, gold decorations and numerous chapter symbols just smothers the actual models, hiding them and turning them into something they are not. Not only that - but look at the weapons that those in the first picture are holding. Thats an aweful lot of close combat weapons for an army that praises the Bolter.

But this change of making things far more detailed than we actually need worms it's way down to out miniatures. Heres marneus calgar, circa 1997:



And compare him to the current model of him:


Not much in the way of change I know. But they are there, it is already present on the old power armoured model, and I guess that it is OK for the grand pimp of the ultra marines, right?

So what about this chap?



He looks like his power armour became all magnetised. But I digress.

I don't want to turn this into a rant about the current space marine models, but it does explain why i haven't taken to the blood angels as much as I did. Put simply, as far as I am concerned, when it come to space marines less is more. And this is a plan for a space marine army.


Nostalgia first, models second, history third and army list somewhere down the lines.

Nostalgia first...

In other words, the space marine army that I have always wanted. When I started thinking about these space marines I decided to take a look at some of the past artworks that really set my imagination alight, whichever Image I choose will most probably influence everything from colour schemes to army list composition.



Apologies for the poor picture, I really did struggle finding a better quality picture. But here it is - one of the very first pictures that I saw when I started Warhammer 40k. A collection of Black Templars going to battle. I like it in comparison to alot of modern space marine art as it actually shows tactical squads at the fore front of the fight instead of a collection of honour guards and a beefy hero doing majority of the work. I'd also really like to see a nicely painted black templars force, something with a little class. It would pretty much be plain Black and white, with none of that red stuff, but it would most likely be a shooty army, just because thats how space marines should be played. Only problem is that it might be a very plain looking army over all. There isn't all that much that you can actually do with black and white.


Quite possibly the most iconic image of space marines since 40k's conception. Space marines defying the odds and coming out on top. This one piece is probably responsible for the reason as to why I prefer my space marine captains to be rather plain. Just look at the figure in the centre. He doesn't demand your attention because he forgot to take off his dressing gown when he got up in the morning, he doesn't have a whole wardrobes worth of capes and ropes. He warrants your attention because of his actions, he's just beaten the snot out of an Ork warboss and is demanding that you try and best him, and the odd little embelishment established that he is the hero, the man of the hour. Colour wise, a dark blue would be a rather entertaining colour to run with for an army, just different enough from the ultramarines to make a difference. Plus, it would be nice to see one of the rarer chapters represented on the table top. If I get one kid, just starting out on his adventure on the tabletops, asking what chapter they are and where they come from it will be worth it.

and last but not least theres this:


Better known as the cover for the second edition box. It's images like this that made me want to collect blood angels in the first place, and the fact that they were finally getting a full book just went a sweetened the deal. Only problem is that I made my army list with the tournament brain on, rather than the modellers brain so I ended up with an army list that I did not find entertaining in the slightest to actually use on the table top. I suppose the smart thing to do at this point would be to stick with the army I still have and just modify it to suit my nostalgia. Thats what the smart person should do. Only problem is - I am so very tired with painting red. I have played speed freaks for what amounts to a third of the time I have been alive. Thats alot of time to be painting red. Sure, I could paint them a new and fancy colour scheme, something like a second founding chapter, but that would just ignore the point that I actually want to be playing Blood angels, not the angels sanguine or the blood ravens.

So thats a little source amterial to go by when considering which chapter to choose and the types of models to include. But what else is missing from nostalgia. Go and find a collection of space marine net lists. How many vulkan lists, razorback spam, ironclad drop pods, assault terminators did you see? How many space marine armies did you encounter that actually had good amount of tactical squads? Something like this:


It's probably a very effective army on the table top, I'll grant it that. But it is boring! The game is currently saturated with space marines (like it never has been) so why do the same? At least make a unique list for a common army. If anything it will throw off people inner calculations when they no longer have to deal with tanks and are instead met by lots of tough soldiers.

I know that this can most probably be saved for the section discussion the army list, but I am to bring the general image of space marines onto the table: letting tactical squads do what they do best and be the bread and butter of the list, rather than the blokes that sit on the objectives. Im not sure what the points are just yet, but I would love to be able to fit in a whole space marine company (say, around 100 models) into 2000 points. But that might not work too hotly on the tables. But that can all be thought out later.

It will not be the most effective army on the table top, that is for certain. But then again, I plan on playing the game using tactics, rather than sitting back and rolling dice. Just like we had to do back in the day.


Models second

Hi! I'm Silk! I like making toy soldiers. It's why I am in this hobby after all and not playing chess instead. Models are there to set your imagination alight, to make the game visually interesting. Mass producing some space marines, drybrushing them three colours and then attacking it with badab black isn't they way that this is meant to be played. If you do that, especially when you know that you can do better with a little more effort, then you have no true grounds with wich to complain to games workshop about their models. It is my humble opinion that the words "That will do" should never be used in conjunction with warhammer 40k. I have a friend that has been painting his space marines for the last decade, and all that it consists of is a quick undercoat, a light colour drybrushed on top and a bit of metalics for the weapons. Sometimes he paints his models with a little flesh if they actually have it on the models.

No. Space marines may be one of the most common armies in the game, but that does not mean that they have to be a poorly painted army. And ithey can still look impressive. A good paint job, a slight conversion with every model, weathering, exotic bases and a well rounded army composition can go along way to making the army stand out from the crowd. I want my space marines to not only be the best damn space marines that you see, but hopefully the best damned army that you will see. I want every model to impress individualy and to still work coherently. With that in mind I have hatched a plan:

Photo realism:
Not only a good paint job, but one that matches with those that paint real-world models to a silly high standard. I don't want you to be able to tell that I have actually painted the modle. No paint strokes should be visible in the entire army. Im talknig about fine airbrush work. Not the usual 2 stage airbrushing either, but multiple stages of thin paint that blend together to look like natural light with every stage between the colours as smooth as my name. And whilst we are on with making toy soldiers look real, there will be weathering. Not just the odd chip here and there, but dirt, grime and oil. Little touches that reinforce that these soldiers have been fighting the tough campaign that they are in. This is probably where the crimson fists will shine, darker colours are easier to get right but highlighting the black templars will leave them turning grey and highlighting red never looks too natural as it turns to orange or pink too quickly. Blue on the other hand is far easier.

Small conversions: Go and look at your space marines, and if you don't have any go and look at the ones on Games workshops sight. How many on there are actually looking down their guns and physically aiming their shots? A little cut here and a little green stuff there and we can easily get aiming space marines rather than having them lazily aiming from the hips. Sure, theres probably something in the fluff that says that they get cameras linked up to their helmets about where they are aiming, but that doesn't come across on the tabletop. Little stuff such as this will be done to every modle to make them unique and that little bit more interesting.

A pre-heresy army: It's been fairly often, but I cannot resist those lovely forge world models. They really make me interested in everything space mariney as they breathe new life into a rather stagnant army. Such as shame they were not released when I first started my Blood angels, I might not be writing this otherwise. And combining the various kits on the site will make that army have that special something that I am looking for in my space marines, if not a considerable bill for them.

Special stuff: I am seriously thinking about using the forge world variant armours for these space marines. They are all interesting in their own way and each on of them is cut above the standard plastic space marines. Maximus armour for the black templars to get away from the whole chivilrous knights in spaaace routine, Heresy armour for the Blood angels just becuase I think that they will look cool in it and Corvus armour for the crimson fists to match the artwork above.

Clever basing: To go with the realistic paint of the space marines, I aim to give them a plausible base. Now, we already have loads of references to good bases from forge world. I want to do something other than brown sand with clumps of green grass. We've been doing that since the end of second edition. It's time to grow up and look to the real world for a lesson. For example, in the real world you really don;t get (with a few rare exceptions) perfect boreder between dirt and grass. In a battlezone the dirt will have been turned into mud in short order and the grass will have been tramples into it.



I think it is time for a break. Part 2 can come later I feel. Would you mind digesting this and adding some input? Any and all would be appreciated. Thanks.

Online Lord Zambia

Re: And they shall know no drybrush.
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 04:03:42 PM »
I'm starting a different marine side project too, however I doubt it would develop into a full army - maybe 500 points at most? Not sure yet i guess it depends how the rest of what I'm working on goes. Using Greek Plumes from Zealot to create a rather interesting chapter (hopefully) ;)

While I have a fair few ideas, still a little hazy on what exactly is going into my list - but it will definately be something different from the norm.
You make it sound like it could be wearing a top-hat and monocle, but for the sole reason it'd have been painted by Gareth that it would still look terrifying........I have to say I agree. XD
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Offline Lord Witherfume

Re: And they shall know no drybrush.
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2012, 06:32:17 PM »
I am personally more of a fan of my necrons then I am of any of the marine armies I have. My grey knights I collected before the current book, as they were rare and unique. Blood angels I collected so I could have a small nUmber count army for traveling, and the chaos marines I just enjoy tearing apart and re- building. I do agree that it's rather stale. I'm certain I'm going to part with my grey knights, as I don't enjoying playing them anymore. I want to focus on my necrons and chaos as necrons are cool, and I enjoy the creative outlet of chaos.
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Offline SILKiam

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Re: And they shall know no drybrush.
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 05:32:25 PM »
Personally I have only played with a loyalist space marine army for a very short time but my list is the closest thing to a Dark Angels army without being Dark Angels, being bike heavy and terminator heavy (this is when the nerf hit the DA so bad hat nobody plays them). Even then I find my army quite a sad one as I realized that I do not have the mindset of a marine (gamewise) and painting them became a chore. I sold my army in like 4 months and used the money to start an ork army that I really enjoyed both gaming-wise and hobby-wise (on par with my dark eldar).

I think having the mindset is also important to collect and play marines.

One question for you Crisis - what would you say the mentality for playing space marines is?

I'm starting a different marine side project too, however I doubt it would develop into a full army - maybe 500 points at most? Not sure yet i guess it depends how the rest of what I'm working on goes. Using Greek Plumes from Zealot to create a rather interesting chapter (hopefully) ;)

While I have a fair few ideas, still a little hazy on what exactly is going into my list - but it will definately be something different from the norm.

Starting off with models in mind is always a good sign I reckon.

Different strokes. For me, aesthetics, gameplay, the hobby side - they all play roughly equal parts. I'm generally initially drawn to an army by the way it looks, but the way it plays on the board is a major deciding factor, and I generally don't bother at all if I believe I can't make at least a mildly competitive list out of it. No matter how cool an army is, I don't enjoy losing every game. :P

With my Flesh Tearers I was simply obligated to start the army, since Chapter Master Seth and I have so much in common. From there I delved into their fluff, read several novels and short stories published by Black Library which featured the chapter, and scoured the internet to see what other people had done. I used all of these to help give me ideas for how my Flesh Tearers army would look. I'm immensely pleased with how it turned out. Basically, my Space Marine army was the result of some unique circumstances beyond the usual "Those look cool, and they play well, I'm collecting them."



I had a similar start to my blood angels. I started them because of the Space hulk boxed set. Made the models and incorporated them into a wolfwing army. After a while I started reading up on the blood angels and my power armoured list took hold.

only problem is that I seemed to have tarred myself with the usual tournemant goers power gaming list and it really does suck that I didn't build the army that I wanted to in the first place. Reckon I should give the blood angels a try?

Quote


I personally really, really like the absurdly over-detailed Space Marines. I enjoy the gritty, grimdark, macabre imagery, such as those from John Blanche (he hasn't done much Marine artwork but you get the idea). That first image you posted of the wave of Ultramarines I think looks pretty damn cool. However, I'd agree that, from an visual standpoint, that much detail would look crazy on a miniature, but thankfully no miniatures have captured that level of bling. That art makes even the most sparkly Blood Angel look positively humble.

I don't think we've reached some critical mass of detail yet, and the great thing is is that if you don't like the current Space Marine look, you're not at all forced to indulge in it. The basical Tactical, Assault, and Devastator boxes feature very basic Marines. Unless you're buying boxes of Grey Hunters or Death Company, you shouldn't have any glaring issues.

I can undertand that from a tabeltop perspective that having a commander that really does stand out seriously helps your opponent so that he isn't surprised by the fact that ordinary model is actually your beefy captain. But look at it this way - how mayn times have you played a game of 40k where the entire army is nothing more than an undercoat, makybe with the odd bit of drybrushing here and there? Did you still know where the commander was?

All that I am saying is that there are alternative ways that we can make commanders and captains actually stand out from the crowd without making them look like an explosion in a clothing factory.

And i really don't like the actual poses of the standard marines - they are a little too static for my tastes. They never look like htey are taking part in a fight.

I have to agree with the majority of things you've said.



Glad to see some one does :P

Quote
Personally I had always avoided marines, partly because they're the poster boys for absolutely everything, and secondly because a lot of my friends have a space marine army of some sort. For this reason I ended up with orks, and even though I am not a particularly good painter, orks really suited this, they were meant to be a rough sort of scheme, in fact, I would almost recommend orks over space marines as an initial painting army, as they don't need the clean coats of colour across large areas of flat model.

Recently however, I was drawn towards wanting a new army, and the fact of the matter is simple, marines are cheaper. Mix this with the fact I'd been painting SM HQ characters of my mates for a while, and really enjoying it, I was sorely tempted. I wanted an army that would be fun to paint and not something that was a net list. Hence Sang guard army, they play fairly well and are good to paint.

It is a mix between the fact they are cheaper to collect, and the fact they are poster boys to why we see so many poor-ish paint schemes of space marines on the table. It is recommended as a starter army in GW's and this means many people new to painting and the hobby are thrown in with these guys. Thus the paint schemes are therefore not always going to be top notch.

As for enjoying painting, it really depends on the amount of time you're willing to put in. For example a mate of mine initially went for Black Templars, Why? Because he had black primer and some white paint. Admittedly this was quite some years ago, but he rushed through, spraying black and throwing thick coats of white on the shoulder pads. Looking at his army meant he actually took a dislike to painting. Recently he restarted painting his army, going through, highlighting and changing the colour scheme. Just a simple thing like this has changed his view on painting and he now enjoys it.

As for the net lists, well that I guess is to be blamed on codex writers, and a humans nature to be competitive. As Seth said, no one likes losing every game, and space marine codices often have a very leading set of choices that can easily be seen as a way to victory. As I mentioned earlier, again, it is often new players using SM's and therefore the appeal of going online searching army lists and copying them is appealing. This leads us down the route of many similar armies, and even veterans can be led down this path, their need for victory leading there choice of models rather than the other sides of the hobby.

I can see the point you make with the over blinged, and not needing to stand out as a more important model. However, the upsides of GW doing this, is that it is easy for quick recognition on the tabletop of important models. Not what everyone wants, well, not what someone who wants to keep a model alive wants, but it does also allow for the ease of drawing the eye to what could be a model you've spent more time on than a rank and file model. Looking at the models you've shown there are arguments for both types of model. Take the less blinged one, it has enough stuff attacked to show it isn't any basic rank of file model, it will stand out, but also blend in. If you add it into a unit it will fit with the unit. Take the blinged one, putting it into a unit will make it stand out, in other terms, looking at it screams importance when you see it on the table.

I really hope what I've said makes sense, I think I kinda lost my initial train of thought somewhere but I think it all goes together. :P

- Will

Yeah, I hear you with the mass off space marines thing. It will be a problem. Hmmm....

Offline SILKiam

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Re: And they shall know no drybrush.
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2012, 07:24:17 PM »
Part 2: The Competition.

ie - stuff that I want to do instead :P

Its a steady realisation that what I want to do is make an army for the sole purpose of making it. As I said before, models come first then everything else slots into place.

The main thing that I consider is whether or not my army will look unique on the table top. I want it to stand out from the crowd. It's part of the reason as to why I want to do the pre heresy stuff - theres some truly spectacular stuff from forge world that will look fantastic together, but then again - whats wrong with converting an army from scratch? After all, you can't get any more unique than one off converted models now can you? And with that in mind, and this will most probably get this topic moved to the general discussion board, I've thought of a few non-marine armies to think over. And as before, any and all input is most welcoming.

Arbites.



Super mega police force go! Taking either the scout rules or the Grey knights henchmen and making some adeptus arbites with them. Im thinking of taking the henchmen, giving them carapace armour and storm bolters (which are shotguns with execution rounds in them in my mind) and just doing stuff like that. Chuck in a few odds and ends - crusaders as riot teams, the odd penal legionaire, the occassional command chimera and just go nuts with the green stuff and conversions to make something that no one else has (or failing that, very few) but I am not too sure about it just yet. Might be a good idea, might be a bad idea...


Siters of battle



Remember when I said that artwork is what really inspires me about 40k? This is my favourite piece of Warhammer 40,000 art work. But I won't go into details about it. But! I will go into details about just what I want to do with the sisters of battle - make them all from plastic. Yes, I know that I already tried that a number of years ago. Didn't turn out too badly, but now we have new dark eldar kits to play with! And pretty much everything that I need comes in one box - I just need to worrk about backpacks and weapons, which shouldn't be too hard. And yes, I am well aware that the sisters codex sucks monkey balls. But there should be a new codex at some point, right? Probably an idea to put on the back burner if I am brutally honest with myself, after all new book will probably mean new plastic models.


CHAOS!


For those of you who don't remember, I used to be the chaos space marine mod many moons ago, and I have been looking for a way to get back into them ever since the new chaos space marine book just ruined them for me. No matter how I look at the current book, I can't help but think that it is incredibly lifeless and boring. And this isn't just in comparison to the old books back in third edition (although C:CSM and eye of terror were freaking cool!). But this is a discussion I have had many, many times. And fortunately a friend has come to save us all - the grey knights book! Theres four trains of thought I have about taking a chaos space marine army:

1 - Use them as a counts as Draigo list - an army made of a collection of chaos lords, the remnants of the chaos legions that fled into the eye of terror. 10,000 years is a long, long time and the amount of experience they have gained will surely mount up. The Draigo wing (modified or not to suit me) allows for such an army where each individual model becomes a character in it's own right, unified under one powerful and persuasive leader. I see this type of army in a similar way to the Deathwatch space marines or our very own rosen knights - a collection of soldiers from various different backgrounds uniting for a common goal. It would give me ample converting and painting room whilst still offering a good table top experience.

2 - Use them as the imperial guard - Zombie guardsmen!! Lots of cadian and catachan lists combined with warhammer zombies. I see this army as a close range shooting army, drowning my opponent with lasguns and bodies. What gets me with the current generation of space marines also irks me with the imperial guard and that Mech is far too often played. It would be nice to reverse it and go back tothe old school with many bodies and lots of dice rolling. But two problems arise - 1, thats alot of models for me to paint if I actually want to a complex painting project and 2, it might just play a little too similar to my orks. Which is bad. I have my orks for my orks!

3 - use them as chaos space marines - but try and do something different. Get a different head on my shoulders and stop looking them in the same light as I did all those years ago. But I doubt I will, I have space marines if I want to play something different to the old chaos space marines.

4 - more henchmen! - Yeah... Sorta a combination of them all actually - use a few terminators here and there and then have a gaggle of cheap henchmen as traitor guardsmen/ zombies/ lesser daemons.




Offline Lord Witherfume

Re: And they shall know no drybrush.
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2012, 08:11:16 PM »
The sisters 'codex' however people think of it is no slouch right now. It's no grey knights, but it has power. Outflanking meltaguns and rending heavy bolters are two pretty amazing elements. Also, Celestine is the ultimate objective contester. I think you should go this route. The only problem is expensive model kits.
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Offline crisis_vyper

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Re: And they shall know no drybrush.
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 07:42:53 AM »
One question for you Crisis - what would you say the mentality for playing space marines is?

Each unit is defined by their special weaponry and does not have true duality of purpose. An unit will perform its function well, but does not have any other secondary function other than those defined by its weaponry. An example would be that a marine squad is unable to function well outside its weapons layout (a squad armed with a melta is an anti-tank squad and that alone). Non-Marine armies however have the general ability to have its role not defined by its weaponry, but by its redundancy of purpose. They can have secondary functions in addition to their primary functions. An example would be a 5 man kabalite warrior with a blaster, where their splinter weaponry in combination of their blaster allows them to take on Monstrous creatures, while also allowing it to become an anti-tank unit.

So marines are an army that works best when you just let units function in their primary role and not any other, while non-marine armies allow you to have some sort of difference of utility.



Offline SILKiam

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Re: And they shall know no drybrush.
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 07:48:25 AM »
That is not the space marine army that I knew. As far as I remember they were always the most flexible army thanks to their tactical marines.

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Re: And they shall know no drybrush.
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 08:55:13 AM »
That is not the space marine army that I knew. As far as I remember they were always the most flexible army thanks to their tactical marines.

They are generalist as a whole, but their units individually are quite restrictive.