Author Topic: 1850 Chaos Marine list.  (Read 142 times)

SMRCommander

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1850 Chaos Marine list.
« on: November 15, 2005, 09:23:56 PM »
This is my "Renagade" Deltaguard :Damned Chapter" army. 

Total:1782

Chaos Lord:197
Mark of Tzeentch
Bolt Pistol w/ Inferno Bolts
Frags
Meltabombs
Bolt of Change
Daemonic Armor
Daemonic Aura
Daemonic Strength
Daemonic Visage
Wind of Chaos
Counter-Attack

Elites:250

Chosen:250
10 Chosen
7 Bolters
3 Plasma Guns
Counter-Attack
Frags
Kraks

Troops:585

Chaos Marines:195
10 Marines
Heavy Bolter
Rhino

Chaos Marines:195
10 Marines
Heavy Bolter
Rhino

Chaos Marines:195
10 Marines
Heavy Bolter
Rhino

Heavy Support:750

Land Raider:250

Chaos Havocs:250
10 Havocs
6 Bolters
4 Missile Launchers
Tank Hunters

Chaos Havocs:250
10 Havocs
6 Bolters
4 Missile Launchers
Tank Hunters

There you have it.  My first Chaos list ;D

Anyway, some tactics explanation.

The Lord and Chosen are meant to pair up and head out in the Land Raider.  I plan on using them as Elite killers, as their plasma guns and the Lord's weapons and powers will be very effective against light vehicles...like Dreads, and against power-armored troops and the like.

The troops are meant for anti-infantry.  The bolters and Heavy Bolters will target infantry, and will have the mobility to get around fast troops or hordes of infantry, or if there is alot of assualt troops use it as a fence.

The Heavy Support is for anti-tank, pure and simple.  The Land Raider will transport the Chosen and Lord, and if not transporting, go after enemy tanks.

Soon I'll post the fluff that goes with this army.  But in the meantime please rate this army and give suggestions.






MalVeauX

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Re: 1850 Chaos Marine list.
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2005, 10:19:07 PM »
SMR:

Not bad for a first list; You have a lot of good elements, but like most people to Chaos, you may want to take it easy on upgrades. It's very easy to go over-board. Also, just some general advice, is that you placed all the utility on your non-troop units, which are smaller, more expensive and easier to kill, while the troops are better at other things. I'll go through that for you though:

HQ1:

Not bad. However, purchasing a bolt pistol, inferno bolts, bolt of change AND winds of chaos are all shooting attacks. Only one may be used per turn, yet you have 3 choices here and you really should stick to one. That's a huge investment for very little. The bolt pistol will not be used while you have Wind and the Bolt of Change is for anti-tank usually. To top it off; you took two major powers, which is illegal, unless you buy a Familiar to allow it. The rest is alright, but overall, you're looking at a 200 point lord who is very slow and cannot get where you need him to be in time. Also, he has poor combat ability, so the idea of counter-attack doesn't really do much for him, as he doesn't even have a power weapon, and chaos lords main strength are in combat. Shooting can be done by other units, more efficiently and cheaper. I would suggest you pick a phase and focus; he's better in combat; but if you want to shoot, maybe take a Lord that moves fast with Bolt of Change... I'll make some examples:

Shooting Lord:

Chaos Lord
-Mark of Tzeentch
*Disc of Tzeentch (flight)
*Daemonic Aura
#Bolt of Change

He's cheap and will do the job well. He flies around quickly and fires his bolt of change effectively. Overall much cheaper and more worth while and he will shoot down his targets while not having any dead weight upgrades. You can substitute a few things as well, such as adding doom bolt or wind for example, but I wouldn't. Using his Ind. Character status, and 24 inch range attack, he should be able to keep out of enemy shooting potential so long as you have other units near by.

Personally though; I'd recommend a combat Lord, for counter assault:

Chaos Lord
Mark of Tzeentch
-Daemonic Resilience
-Daemonic Aura
-Daemonic Flight
-Dark Blade
-Bolt Pistol
#Wind of Chaos
Frag Grenades

He's cheaper and more well rounded, yet still a Sorcerer. The point is to move quickly (flight) to get up close and personal and use the Winds of Chaos. Then you jump into assault with your powerful S6 power weapon attacks, which will chop through everyone. Much more effective in both aspects of shooting and assault.

Elite1:

10 Chosen is really pushing it. They're slow, on foot, vulnerable and have no transport. What's more, they have counter-attack, yet no combat ability (no champion for example with a power fist for example). Instead, they resemble a Havoc team with plasma guns and full grenades, yet the grenades will not be used hardly (the plasma is better than the grenades against those targets, and you having frag grenades will rarely make a difference, because rapidfire prevents assault and you have all rapidfire here). So in other words; you need to choose to shoot, or attack, or even both, but you need to round them out. Otherwise, I'd suggest you drop them. They're too expensive for a single extra plasma gun compared to a Troop selection and lack a transport to get that plasma where it needs to be. I would drop this entire unit for the following:

Troop Alternative
-CSM x 8 or 10
-Plasma Guns x 2
#Infiltration (possibly)
***Possibly an Aspiring Champion with a Power Fist

Or, to fix this squad and keep it: drop all grenades here, drop counter attack, and take a Rhino. The Land Raider will not be an effective transport for it's price; while it's lascannons are wasted if it's moving fast to get your marines closer to the enemy. I would save the points, and take the Rhino, and take a Predator for lascannons instead.

Troop1~3:

These squads, even by your description, just really aren't worth it in my opinion. You're taking large mobilized squads with nothing but a heavy bolter, which is not mobile and long range. Odd mix. Instead, you're placing on your havocs all the pressure to kill tanks. Instead, I would recommend you swap the havoc's role and your troop's role in this army (ie: troops for anti-tank, havocs for anti-infantry). Missiles and Lascannons and tank hunters are cheaper on troops than havocs, while havocs can pay a decent price for several heavy bolters and make better use of them. I would give transports to other units, like those chosen. It's also a good idea, to have at least a few squads which can move around and fire on the go; so I would rig a troop up to have a champion for combat, and some meltaguns or something for example in a rhino.

Examples:

CSM x 8
-Lascannon
-Plasma gun
#Tank Hunters

CSM x 10
-Plasma Guns x 2
-Asp. Champion; Power Fist
Rhino

Heavy1:

The Land Raider is ok; but really, what's its true role? If it's transporting, it's move; so the lascannons will not always be able to fire to full effect. That makes it pretty difficult to be worth that big chunk of points. Instead, I would opt for a Predator with Hull and Lascannons, as it has the same front armor, more lascannons and allows you to split up your transport and anti-tank role into two different units so that not all your eggs are in one basket.

Heavy2~3:

Havocs can really be expensive, really fast. Personally I would move these missiles into Troop selections. Or at least move one of them. Instead, if you want heavy bolters, for anti-infantry, consider a unit of Havocs with heavy bolters and infiltration, instead of tank hunting missiles. Tank hunting troop lascannons are more effective and cheaper than 4 missiles are at anti-tank roles.

Example:

Havocs x 8
-Heavy Bolters x 4
#Infiltration

Otherwise; consider Autocannons with tank hunters even.

Anyhow - good luck!

Cheers! :)


SMRCommander

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Re: 1850 Chaos Marine list.
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2005, 10:53:33 PM »
I'm fast to reply ;)

I see your point.  I'm editing the list to be as the following.

“Renegade” DeltaGuard Chas List

Total:1840   

Chaos Sorcerer:150
Mark of Chaos Undivided
Plasma Pistol
Dark Blade
Daemonic Aura
Daemonic Flight
Counter-Attack
Frags         

Troops:940

Chaos Marines:150
10 Marines
Bolters
Missile Launcher

Chaos Marines:150
10 Marines   
Bolters
Missile Launcher

Chaos Marines:150
10 Marines
Missile Launcher

Chaos Marines:160
10 Marines
Bolters
Autocannon
Plasma Gun

Chaos Marines:160
10 Marines
Bolters
Autocannon
Plasma Gun




Chaos Marines:170
10 Marines
Bolt Pistols and Bolters
Frags
Counter-Attack

Heavy Support:750

Havocs:250
10 Marines
Bolters
4 Heavy Bolters
Rhino   

Havocs:250
10 Marines
Bolters
4 Heavy Bolters
Rhino

Land Raider:250

Fixed up a bit.  I took most of your advice on the lord, making him an anti-assualt lord.  He is now way better at assualt, and properly equipped to do it.

Got rid of Chosen.  I saw better and cheaper ways for an anti-elite squad. 

I maxed out troop slots.
The 3 squads with missile launchers were of your advice.  But I decided to make 2 squads hold a plasma gun and an autocannon.  These weapons are very effective elite killers, and the 2 squads give the following advantage;
1)Not all of my elite-killing power is in one squad
2) More firepower
3)Make more sense.

The last one is odd, I know, and I added it in last second.  It's main purpose is to fend off asualt units near the main army, that way they can tie them up while my other units get into position to take out this threat.
I followed your advice on the havoc.  I also gave them Rhinos, as they have the shortest-ranged heavy weapons, and will make use of them to get them into position (otherwise blocking off fire from annoying squads).

Unfortunatly, I bought and painted my Landraider a year ago.  After that pain in the butt work and time, and after $50+, I really don't want to get rid of it.  Besides, I like it's very, very heavy armor.

Still writing fluff.  Please evaluate my new list.  MalVeauX, thanks, as your suggestions were good.  I'd appreciate more :)

MalVeauX

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Re: 1850 Chaos Marine list.
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2005, 11:09:58 PM »
SMR:

Good update. The new list is better really. However, there's only one minor problem. You gave rhinos to the havoc teams... which really, they don't need them. That also brings up the last point - you don't have any mobilized marines other than the havocs. It's good to have a few troops that can be mobile.

Consider:

Troops:

Marines x 8
-Missile Launcher
-9 Bolters

Marines x 8
-Missile Launcher
-9 Bolters

Marines x 8
-Missile Launcher
-9 Bolters

Marines x 8
-Missile Launcher
-9 Bolters

Marines x 8
-Plasma Gun x 2 (or meltaguns)
Rhino; Extra Armor; Smoke Launchers

Marines x 8
-Plasma Gun x 2 (or meltaguns)
Rhino; Extra Armor; Smoke Launchers

That maxes out your troops, while giving you essential elements of the army (mobilized capable squads with on-the-go oriented weapons; several anti-tank squads). However, I would probably drop the squad size of the missile launcher marines down a bit, and use the models to raise the mobilized teams and to possibly field more squads elseware with the points. Bikes for example, could compliment this kind of stationary based army very well.

Starting to round out good though :)

Cheers!

SMRCommander

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Re: 1850 Chaos Marine list.
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2005, 09:42:25 PM »
Updated list:

Fallen Deltaguard 1787

Chaos Lord:161
Dark Blade
Plasma Pistol
Daemonic Flight
Daemonic Aura
Daemonic Essence
Daemonic Strength
Frags

Chaos Lt.:96
Bolt Pistol
Power Weapon
Daemonic Flight
Daemonic Essence

Elites:172

Chosen:172
6 Chosen
2 Plasma Guns
Rhino

Troops:796

Marines:210
10 marines
2 Plasma Guns
Rhino

Marines:210
10 marines
2 Plasma Guns
Rhino

Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher

Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher


Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher

Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher

Fast Attack:175

Raptors:175
5 Raptors
3 Plasma Pistols

Heavy Support:459

Havocs:172
8 Marines
4 Heavy bolters

Havocs:172
8 Marines
4 Heavy bolters

Dreadnought:115   
Plasma Cannon
DCCW w/ Combi-Bolter

Took in some of your suggestions.  The Missile Launcher Squads have been lowered a bit, and I put in the 2 plasmagun wielding squad w/ rhinos.  I fulled out the 2 squads though.

Now I started getting some ideas.  I took out the Land Raider, seeing as a pointless thing in my army, and also it didn't fit my fluff.  This gave me quite some points.  I also took out 2 marines per squad in the 2 havocs units.  Also fixed my lord up some more, and his role is completely anti-assualt.  I added in a Lt. last second w/ some extra points, and he'll have the same role, just not as good as it. 

The 2 Rhino squads will work on capturing objectives, while the 4 other squads aim at tanks.  The Havocs will focus on infantry. 

Now for major changes.  First, I put back in the Chosen, but fixed a TON.  I put 6 of them in, and gave them a rhino and 2 plasma guns.  They will support the two other rhino troops and hold objectives with them or themselves.  I also added in a Raptor Squad.  This is to tie up nasty close combat units, and they can also support objectives with their jet packs.  So they are basically anti-assualt and objective support.  Last is the dreadnought.  I always liked dreads, empoerer or chaos.  So I put one in with a plasma cannon and DCCW.  He just mainly supports units, and isn't geared towards one specific thing.  Besides, I love Plasma Cannons!

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.  Thanks for everything so far, and I look forward to the next bunch of suggestions. 

MalVeauX

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Re: 1850 Chaos Marine list.
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2005, 09:54:58 PM »
SMR:

Looking good! Only a few suggestions:

HQ1:

Drop daemonic strength; Currently he is S7, but S7 doesn't really make a difference in combat, compared to S6. The next breaking point is S8, but you can't get to that very easily, so instead of buying strength, buy something to help you survive longer: resilience. Daemonic Resilience is very important in keeping you alive while murdering infantry. T5 is a toughness just high enough to make you very, very powerful. Otherwise, he's fine.

HQ2:

Really I would drop this character. However, it's ok to keep him too. The problem is, you're paying a lot of points for something like this with no invulnerable save. I would at least try to get that Inv. Save on him. If you simply add Daemonic Aura, he'll be good to go. But the problem that follows that, is that you have an expensive character with a S4 power weapon. Overall should be fine, but personally I'd point his points into champions for your troops (see below).

Elite1:

Looks good to me; but since they're be up close and personal, why not take a Champion with a power weapon or power fist? Would be helpful.

Troops1~2:

Again, mobile marines are good; however, if they get too close, a Champion with a power fist, or power weapon with daemonic strength would be very, very useful.

Troops4~6:

Perfectly fine.

Fast1:

These raptors are very up-close and personal. I would definitely suggest a Champion with a power weapon and daemonic strength here.

Heavy1~3:

Perfectly fine.

Cheers! :)

SMRCommander

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Re: 1850 Chaos Marine list.
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2005, 10:16:38 PM »
Did what I could.

Fallen Deltaguard: 1829

Chaos Lord:161
Dark Blade
Plasma Pistol
Daemonic Flight
Daemonic Aura
Daemonic Essence
Daemonic Strength
Frags

Elites:172

Chosen:172
6 Chosen
2 Plasma Guns
Rhino


Troops:862

Marines:243
10 marines
2 Plasma Guns
Rhino
Aspiring Champion:33
Power Fist and Bolt Pistol
Daemonic Strength

Marines:243
10 marines
2 Plasma Guns
Rhino
Aspiring Champion:33
Power Fist and Bolt Pistol
Daemonic Strength

Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher

Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher



Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher

Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher

Fast Attack:175

Raptors:175
5 Raptors
3 Plasma Pistols

Heavy Support:459

Havocs:172
8 Marines
4 Heavy bolters

Havocs:172
8 Marines
4 Heavy bolters

Dreadnought:115   
Plasma Cannon
DCCW w/ Combi-Bolter


I just added in 2 aspiring champions and took out the Lt.  I redid the math and it seems I had less points than I thought.  Could you add up all the points for me and double check my math?  I might of messed up.  Ironically I wrote the 2nd version of the list in math class...

MalVeauX

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Re: 1850 Chaos Marine list.
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2005, 11:37:51 PM »
SMR:

It all seems to add up to me. But there's still a few tweaks to be made. For starters, your rhinos lack Extra Armor & Smoke Launchers. Next, you have daemonic strength & power fists (you don't need both upgrades, S8 and S9 have little to no difference in combat, except against very specific opponents, such as a wraithlord). I'll make adjustments and give you an alternative, changes will be in bold:

Fallen Deltaguard: 1843 (You have 7 points free, which can be a number of things, but easily extra armor on your dreadnought for example)

HQ: 161

Chaos Lord
Dark Blade
Plasma Pistol
Daemonic Flight
Daemonic Aura
Daemonic Essence
Daemonic Resilience
Frags

(I dropped Strength and replaced it with Resilience - You're already high on strength, and S7 will not make a difference. T5 on the other hand will make a huge difference)

Elites: 180

Chosen
6 Chosen
2 Plasma Guns
Rhino
Extra Armor
Smoke Launchers

Troops: 868

Marines - 246
10 marines
2 Plasma Guns
Aspiring Champion
Power Fist and Bolt Pistol
Rhino
Extra Armor
Smoke Launchers

Marines - 246
10 marines
2 Plasma Guns
Aspiring Champion
Power Fist and Bolt Pistol
Rhino
Extra Armor
Smoke Launchers

Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher

Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher

Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher

Marines:94
6 Marines
Missile Launcher

Fast Attack: 175

Raptors
5 Raptors
3 Plasma Pistols

Heavy Support: 459

Havocs:172
8 Marines
4 Heavy bolters

Havocs:172
8 Marines
4 Heavy bolters

Dreadnought:115   
Plasma Cannon
DCCW w/ Combi-Bolter

Cheers! :)

SMRCommander

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Re: 1850 Chaos Marine list.
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2005, 11:44:18 PM »
Cheers! :)
To my new list ;)
Thanks for the help and tweaks.  I apprecaited it alot.  All that's left now is to write the rest of my fluff, collect the army, and play with it.

Thanks again,

SMR