How i love a challenge !

[Symbol]

As a long standing Dark Eldar player and having proved their ability to cut armies down to size !
Ihave been looking round for my next challenge and it seems people laugh in the same way as they did about the dark eldar when i talk about playing the witchhunters ? so after a some talk about all the cool stuff in the army it is decided once again i will take on a lost cause ! so any pointers ? what way does the army work ? or does just simply not work ?

[MalVeauX]

As a long standing Dark Eldar player and having proved their ability to cut armies down to size !
Ihave been looking round for my next challenge and it seems people laugh in the same way as they did about the dark eldar when i talk about playing the witchhunters ? so after a some talk about all the cool stuff in the army it is decided once again i will take on a lost cause ! so any pointers ? what way does the army work ? or does just simply not work ?

Heya Symbol

You definitely picked a good army then! Here's the thing though, it's not the Witch Hunters who are joked about, it's more specifically the Sisters of Battle. The full list of the Witch Hunters can be very balanced and very powerful, combining the power of the imperial guard, assassins and cheap power armored sisters all working together for great fire power and good combat units as well. The entire list is a great army, but the attraction to the army is usually specifically for the Sisters and then running the Pure sisters. Pure sisters are a very unbalanced army and not that easy to play. Anyhow, we can go more into them if they interest you, or more into the army as a whole if that interests you.

For starters though, a few things to check out:

Witch Hunters - Know Thy Self
Important Topics

Quickly skim through these, and check out a few threads in the Important Topics to quickly get an idea of what you have available and how they can work together. Then when you have an idea of what you'd like to do, then let us know and we'll see what we can do

Cheers!

[carmachu]

Actually Mal, you're wrong. Or rather have it backwards:

The WH book as a whole, is nice and fluffy. But the real strength of the list is pure sisters. Its the stronger part. Other other half, the "freakshow" stuff(as we call it) is rather weak as a whole, and not very good.


Pure sisters arent easy, never really have been. But they are much like tau: not easy in teh beginning, but once you get the hang of them, they are quite good....

[MalVeauX]

Actually Mal, you're wrong. Or rather have it backwards:

The WH book as a whole, is nice and fluffy. But the real strength of the list is pure sisters. Its the stronger part. Other other half, the "freakshow" stuff(as we call it) is rather weak as a whole, and not very good.


Pure sisters arent easy, never really have been. But they are much like tau: not easy in teh beginning, but once you get the hang of them, they are quite good....

We both have our opinions, however just to be clear about mine in case it was misinterpreted:

The entire Witch Hunters as a whole are balanced and strong. That means:

1 - Inquisitorial units (Inquisitor; Assassins; Storm Troopers)
2 - Sisters of Battle (sisters, seraphim, cannoness, etc)
3 - Inducted imperial guard (infantry platoons, russ, etc)

As a whole, they combine, from that codex as a very powerful and fluffy force.
Taking any section of it, and going "pure" in a way, strengthens one part, while weakens it in another.

Some times, that strengthened pure army can be great; while against others, it's weaknesses make it more difficult. Pure Sisters vs Tau for example.
They're a strong part of the codex, but they're not stronger than the entire codex working together

Cheers!

[carmachu]

We both have our opinions, however just to be clear about mine in case it was misinterpreted:

The entire Witch Hunters as a whole are balanced and strong. That means:

1 - Inquisitorial units (Inquisitor; Assassins; Storm Troopers)
2 - Sisters of Battle (sisters, seraphim, cannoness, etc)
3 - Inducted imperial guard (infantry platoons, russ, etc)

As a whole, they combine, from that codex as a very powerful and fluffy force.
Taking any section of it, and going "pure" in a way, strengthens one part, while weakens it in another.

Some times, that strengthened pure army can be great; while against others, it's weaknesses make it more difficult. Pure Sisters vs Tau for example.
They're a strong part of the codex, but they're not stronger than the entire codex working together

Oh I understand your opinion, I just disagree, and think your wrong. *grin*

Understand, I've played sisters since their release, way back in second. I've played them faithfully (pun intended) since then. I'm moving on to another army (tau) because they are starting to look a bit more fun. Branching out if you will.

While combing guard with sisters can make them better, the =I= stuff is really fluffy, pretty neat, models overall look good......but arent that good, combining with pure sisters. Pure sisters is actually the more powerful part of teh WH list: alot of the "freaksow stuff" feels more "add on" than anything else. Pure sisters is stronger than the WH list built to play it.

Dont get me wrong, I have many of teh units: a nicely convered =I= landraider, 3 pentient engines, assassins, death cultists, etc.....But if push came to shove, much of that stuff would get left on  the shelf to buy another sister squad. Which is the real workhorse of the army.

Not sure what you mean by sisters vs tau. I usually come out ahead of tau at the moment. Sometimes killing power, but more often, much like tau, playing the mission.

But tau and sisters have alot in common: FoF is similar to the mounted sister squad. Bring firepower to bear on targets, target priority and other items.....playing sisters is similar to playing tau. Except we have to get a hell of alot closer....

[MalVeauX]

Carmachu:

To each their own The sisters are very strong. The imperial guard simply make them stronger. Pure sisters supported by inducted guard are a much better army in my opinion. It is true that most Inquisitorial units (Inquisitors, Arcos, Penitent Engines, etc) look awesome but are very weak compared to more simple sister squads. But the point of my argument that pure sisters are not more powerful than the Witch Hunters overall stems from pure sisters compared to pure sisters supported by the guard. They simply add so much to make up for short comings that sisters have.

The point of Tau vs. Sisters was because Tau can run circles around them. Tau have a lot of strengths that play the Sisters weaknesses. As for their comparison, I make it, because I play both Witch Hunters (including sisters) and the Tau. They're both great armies to play, so it's fun to switch back and forth.

Pure sisters in the right hands are a very potent and powerful force. But even in the right hands, against another opponent that is an arch-type that really can play the weakness of the sisters, they can still be punished for their short comings. But they're still a powerful force that really needs time to figure out. For that they're a great challenge for a new player, especially one who started with another army (such as Space Marines, Eldar, Guard, etc). And it's even more challenging to play a pure Inquisitorial force (and down right suicidal). The Guard & Sisters together though, are a very powerful alliance, much in the same light that Grey Knights and Guard go together like bread & butter. Cheap long range anti-tank support takes a lot of pressure of sister units which are much better at other things.

But I see your reasoning all the same

Cheers!

[carmachu]

Carmachu:

To each their own The sisters are very strong. The imperial guard simply make them stronger. Pure sisters supported by inducted guard are a much better army in my opinion. It is true that most Inquisitorial units (Inquisitors, Arcos, Penitent Engines, etc) look awesome but are very weak compared to more simple sister squads. But the point of my argument that pure sisters are not more powerful than the Witch Hunters overall stems from pure sisters compared to pure sisters supported by the guard. They simply add so much to make up for short comings that sisters have.

The Guard & Sisters together though, are a very powerful alliance, much in the same light that Grey Knights and Guard go together like bread & butter. Cheap long range anti-tank support takes a lot of pressure of sister units which are much better at other things.

While a nice battle tank and guard's long rnage fire power is nice, and adds a nice powerful punch to sisters, unlike the Grey knights, you are actually weakening the sisters by taking non-Adepta Sorita units: You're losing faith.

In the old days, you could easily run up 14 faith points no sweat. Now, at 1850, roughly, your looking at 9-12 for mechanized force(more if on foot). Every platoon of guard and a tank is less sisters.....so maybe half that if you add guard. Personally I'd rather have faith than IG infantry. But to each his own.....

*shrug*

The point of Tau vs. Sisters was because Tau can run circles around them. Tau have a lot of strengths that play the Sisters weaknesses. As for their comparison, I make it, because I play both Witch Hunters (including sisters) and the Tau. They're both great armies to play, so it's fun to switch back and forth.

Hammerheads give me the same headaches as Falcons, but overall I dont find myself run around.

Explain what you mean? I generally dont find myelf out run by tau, beyond the 3 hammer heads folk take....

Yes their both fun. My other army is tyranids, another non-marine army.

[MalVeauX]

Explain what you mean? I generally dont find myelf out run by tau, beyond the 3 hammer heads folk take....

What I mean is, the strength of Tau having superior range, in all situations, stronger weapons and the rules of Skimmers on their side. A fully mechanized Tau force can stop the mobility of Sisters and be pretty immune to them from long range and short range. Of course, a totally stationary Tau army can dish out pain from afar, but Sisters can burn them good at close range. Differing Tau armies make a different game for Sisters. But what I was referring to, is the more popular mechanized Tau now, compared to a mechanized Sisters army. Big difference in resilience and output.

Cheers!

[Starchilde]

14 points of faith?!?  You trying to summon the Emperor or something?   

Seriously though, When I play I find that 5 to 9 points of faith are more than adequate.  I've also been a long playing (and long suffering) pure sisters player who has finally seen the light and integrated other With Hunter units into my army.  My primary nemesis over the past few years has been a Tau army and rarely could a pure sisters force do more than produce a draw against them.  Recently, my sisters have been joined by an Inquisitor and inducted IG units - this has made a HUGE difference in my battles against the Tau.  I applaud your bravado in playing pure sisters, but my experience tells me that if I want half a chance at winning a game, I need to use the whole of the codex.  It gives me better odds.

No hard feelings intended by my comments, just my two cents worth.

-Starchilde

PS  Back on the original subject of this thread:  welcome aboard Symbol.  I think you will enjoy the challenge of playing a Witch Hunter army.

[carmachu]

14 points of faith?!?  You trying to summon the Emperor or something?   

What, you never could? Faithless heritic!

Seriously, 14 faith was with the pre-WH book, and the acts were a bit different. Especially SotM, which annoyedf tau players to know end....

Seriously though, When I play I find that 5 to 9 points of faith are more than adequate.

It.....depends on which armies I play against. Orks even 5 are too much, there almost is never a need for them. Guard you dont need as many. Marines and tau its hit or miss, depending on the list. Chaos I tend to need double digits. Necrons I never have enough....

  I've also been a long playing (and long suffering) pure sisters player who has finally seen the light and integrated other With Hunter units into my army.  My primary nemesis over the past few years has been a Tau army and rarely could a pure sisters force do more than produce a draw against them.  Recently, my sisters have been joined by an Inquisitor and inducted IG units - this has made a HUGE difference in my battles against the Tau.  I applaud your bravado in playing pure sisters, but my experience tells me that if I want half a chance at winning a game, I need to use the whole of the codex.  It gives me better odds.

I rather have another sister squad. The 2 tau armies I play, one doesnt count, because frankly he isnt any good(which applies to any army he could play-give'em a min/maxed BA assualt army and he'd still win only 50%). The other is competent, but I seem to get teh better of him. Doesnt mean I kill more at times, but rather the old adage of "keep you mind on the misson".

I usually have the opposite effect: when I add other stuff, my ability to win goes down. To each their own.

No hard feelings intended by my comments, just my two cents worth.

No sweat, thats why they call it discussion....

[Pontus]

I regulary take on Necrons with my sisters/Inquisitor/Guard army and even if it's a great challange it works. An elite inqiositor with scourging even puts fear in to the C'tan. And the Leman Russ also is great for taking out almost everything he throws at me. I don't find that it weakens my army not to do pure sisters... not at all actually.

[carmachu]

To be honest, I'm suprised a LR does anything vs necrons.....since everything glances on a 6....

[Pontus]

To be honest, I'm suprised a LR does anything vs necrons.....since everything glances on a 6....

Well.. they tend to fear the exorcist aswell.. and maybe the other exorcist.. and if you do shot them you're not shooting all the sisters and all the other stuff.. I usually out number him quite a bit.

[Symbol]

It seems that your comments are wide and varied, thanks to all, to me it seems that the strength is in numbers of sisters of the various options using uinits heavy in assault weapons heavy weapons regular squads and jump pack squads, adding in an assasin for good measure. Although there has to be an effective way of using the inquisitor and his henchmen they just look too cool not to be !

[MalVeauX]

It seems that your comments are wide and varied, thanks to all, to me it seems that the strength is in numbers of sisters of the various options using uinits heavy in assault weapons heavy weapons regular squads and jump pack squads, adding in an assasin for good measure. Although there has to be an effective way of using the inquisitor and his henchmen they just look too cool not to be !

There are several ways to use Inquisitors, especially just to look cool!

Just remember this though: Inquisitors and their retinues are paper thin for their price tags. The humble sister's HQ, Elites and Troops and Fast Attack and Heavy Supports and all are leaps and bounds more solid for a much lower price. The Inquisition however, offers a few tricks, and a few bits of wargear, which are extremely useful. They also offer up nasty imperial weapons, like plasma, or a land raider for good measure.

Really though - Cheap Inquisitor setups, going for utility, are the best route I can suggest to take for most people, no matter what really. The next runner up would be a shooting support squad, with dakka weapons--I would suggest mostly to people never to bother with the plasma cannon (which everyone seems to immediately want to take) or multi-meltas.

So here's a cheap, useful Inquisitor, for example:

Inquisitor
-Liber Heresius
-Bolter
Retinue:
Penitent x 2 (to avoid fear of darkness, fury of the ancients, etc)
Familiar x 1

This unit simply provides the liber heresius, and provides a scoring unit for good measure.

Inquisitor Lord
-Liber Heresius
-Psychic Hood
Bolter
Retinue:
Penitent x 2
Familiar x 1

The same thing as above, but more HQ related, for the Leadership to fuel the psychic hood. He's the same thing, but with the Hood for shutting down powers.

Inquisitor (Lord even)
-Liber Heresius; Bolter
Retinue:
Gun Servitor; Heavy Bolter x 2
Penitent x 2
Familiar x 2

Fire support really; though a Daemonhunter Inquisitor is better for this, to get an extra Psycannon on board.

DH Inquisitor (ally)
-Psycannon
-Auspex
Retinue:
Gun Servitors x 3; Heavy Bolters x 3
Sage
Mystics x 3

Anyhow, hopefully that will shed some light for you or give you some ideas

Cheers!

[Pontus]

Inquisitor
-boltpistol and close combat weapon
-scourging
sage
other henchmen to taste (for extra wounds)

Gives you a cheap Inquisitor that potentially can kill loads of drops or get rid of those wraiths, daemons and other stuff with invulnerable save. Even the C'tan fear this.

You could also include some warriors with grenade launchers or similar for more dakka. Grenade launcher is an assault weapon with the same range as scourging and therefore a good choice.

[MalVeauX]

Inquisitor
-boltpistol and close combat weapon
-scourging
sage
other henchmen to taste (for extra wounds)

Gives you a cheap Inquisitor that potentially can kill loads of drops or get rid of those wraiths, daemons and other stuff with invulnerable save. Even the C'tan fear this.

You could also include some warriors with grenade launchers or similar for more dakka. Grenade launcher is an assault weapon with the same range as scourging and therefore a good choice.

Just a note: Scouring does indeed rock hard against a few targets, but currently, it's quite good for something else: Bikes. Turboboosting bikes, have invulnerable saves, however, this invulnerable save replaces the armor save--if you then ignore that invulnerable save, the bike will have zero save at all (unless it's in cover). It's quite a boon. The Daemonhunters were brought up in this since psycannons and scourging and all are quite powerful. This is useful against many armies, not just Necrons. It is very good as you said for hitting Wraiths specifically, due to their small squad sizes and relatively normal toughness (and that they do not receive any armor save at all).

Just for clarification though, the Grenade Launcher & Scourging do not have the same range. Scouring has less range.

Cheers!