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Battle Reports / NEW Orks vs NEW Ultramarines (1500pts): WELCOME TO 8TH!
« Last post by BigToof on Today at 12:46:58 AM »
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NEW Orks vs NEW Ultramarines (1500pts): WELCOME TO 8TH!
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Hi All,
No, it's not a fever dream.
I'm back.
And so is WAARGH! Grumgutz!
8th has brought a LOT of old faces out of the woodwork and although it's a bit of hurdle to get your mind around on paper, it's been a blast to play.
Rather, it's a really, really new game.
I found that new players actually had an easier time than people who suffered through the dying throes of 7th, as you don't have to "unlearn" all of the arcane ruleset that well... doesn't exist anymore.
And I have to say:
TWO BIG GREEN THUMBS UP.
Orks are back with a ton of new tricks and stinker units are now quite nice.
And who best to play my new list out with than one of my old mates.
You may remember him as my somewhat detested Ultramarines rival who went all Battle Company (AKA free transports for everybody!), but now he's brought out a version of his 7th list mostly to see what he has to repaint/remodel.
.
..
...
I know that heartbreak well.
So, my somewhat eclectic list is against a very small Ultramarines force that seems a bit unprepared for the NEW ORK ORDER.
I'm wasn't sure if my new tricks will work, but that's what reps are for!

BTW if you all are wondering, from what I've seen 8th is FAST and BLOODY.
So, it's not a... LONG rep.  But, it's a vicious one...

Best,
-BT

P.S.  Yes, there is fluff!  Fluff out first then rep to follow, you know how it is... :)
Comments greatly appreciated!

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NEW Orks (1500): 80 Infantry, 3 Vehicles; 7 CPs (Battalion and Spearhead)
Ex-Farseer Lorilune (Weirdboy)
Axl Da Goff Rokka (Weirdboy)
Tankbustasx5 w/Rokkits, Boss Nob, Bomb Squig
Boyzx28 w/Sluggas, Choppas, Boss Nob
Boyzx28 w/Sluggas, Choppas, Boss Nob
Grotzx10
Battlewagon w/Deffrolla
Big Mek Wingnut on Warbike w/KFF
Battlewagon w/Deffrolla
Lootasx5
Gorkanaut BigToof (Deffstorm mega-shoota, 2 Rokkits, 2 Twin Big shootas, Skorcha)

NEW Ultramarines (1500): 27 Infantry, 4 Vehicles; 6 CPs
Captain on Bike w/Thunder Hammer
Librarian on Bike, Force Sword
Tactical Marinesx5 w/Gravgun in Razorback w/TLC
Tactical Marinesx5 w/Gravgun in Razorback w/TLC
Tactical Marinesx5 w/Gravgun in Razorback w/TLC
Bikersx5 w/Gravgunsx2
Centurionsx3 w/Gravcannons, Hurricaine Bolters
Devestatorsx5 w/MLx4

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Mission: No Quarter (1VP for each unit destroyed)
Setup: Front-Line Assault

Psychic Powers:
Lorilune: Da Jump, Smite
Axl: Warpath, Smite
Librarian: Veil of Time, Might of Heroes, Smite

Warlord:
Wingnut: Inspiring leader (+1Ld to all within 6")
Captain: Legendary Fighter (+1 attack when charging)

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Chapter One: The NEW Ork Order
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"What do you mean you lot 'don't get it?'"

The screams of Ex-Farseer Lorilune echoed through the patchwork tent thrown up around the vast horde of Orks.  As "pet" of Warlord Grumgutz, the Ex-Farseer had gone through many transformations, an enlightened Farseer, Ork slave, an enlightened Farseer again, and then an abomination again.  As infuriating as her mere existance was to her, she never could underestimate the raw stupidity of the common Ork.

Lorilune felt her staff scrape across the shattered piece of slate that was holding the most simplistic variant of her master plan.  The crowd of Orks winced at the sound and a few shrinked back from her gaze.  Their terror gave her an ounce of solace, but not enough to silence her rage.

Wiping the soot that still clung to her face, Lorilune snarled as she remembered the past few days.  It had been a rather troubling start to her latest adventure when Wingnut and his monstrosity descended upon her somewhat annoying exile upon the Tau world where her former lover once lived.  A flicker of memory of passionate nights of grey skin crossed her mind with bittersweet fondness.  It was a simple time with Bang, but Lorilune knew that it was temporary.  And when the Orks came, she knew that it was time to depart for greater things.  And when they entered the Warp for transit, Wingnut had explained that Grumgutz had told them to rendezvous at an uninhabited planet for some kind of "big plan."

Everything seemed to be going to plan until they exited the Warp into a hail of warning klaxons.  It turned out that the planet wasn't uninhabited anymore and they had run facefirst into some kind of Mon-Keigh defensive array.  Their ship had taken massive damage and although they had managed to severly damage their opponent, the gravity well of the planet pulled them in.  And they had survived planetfall.  More or less.

Lorilune scowled at the tattered remains of the once beautiful dress that had taken her ages to procure.  Now, it was as savage and dirty as the rest of her.  The Orks had an near-anathema to the concept of cleanliness, so in order to find something resembling a decent bath and sauna, they were going to have to attack the nearby Imperial outpost. 
Which was going to be as simple as beating an Ork in a spelling contest, but then the damnable Marines showed up.  Apparently, the Space Marine barge had decided to send down forces of their own, and the fight was going to need some trickery to pull off as the standard Orkish tactic of running into Bolter fire wasn't going to do much.
And that was what she was trying to explain.  But the simpletons just. couldn't. understand.

"Alright.  ONE.  MORE.  TIME.  We're near the forward scouting range of the Space Marines.  No doubt they've seen signs of us and will be trying to make some kind of established forward defense to keep us in check.  However, we will circumnavigate that by doing the following:"

She paused to look at the other surviving Weirdboy, a strange Ork named Axl who had a shaggy mop of a hairsquig on his head and wore all black Goff tribe squig-leathers.  Lorilune had thought the Ork rather strange with the strange looking wires hanging off of his staff that almost resembled a musical instrument.  But, she would take what she could get.

"Step One: Our comrade Axl here will infuse you with Orkish Enhancement Energy to boost you to a desired level of combat ability.  Step Two: I will use my incredible and unmatched control of the Warp to open a Gate to the flank of the Mon-Keigh.  Step Three: You lot will charge forward and attack them and while they are flat-footed we will drive  them out."

One Ork raised his hand.

Lorilune sighed and nodded.

"So...  Axl's gonna juice us up and then we'z gonna Jump?"

"YES!" screamed Lorilune as the other Orks gave out sounds of astonished surprise and cries of "Dat's smart dat is."  Finally they understood.  Now they just needed Wingnut to hold up his side of the bargain.  A musical sounding horn brought her attention to the outside of the tent where she could hear the rumbling of something large.

Lorilune pushed past the crowd of Orks and looked at a pair of ramshackle looking Battlewagons.

Khaine's blood, she thought, it had been an age since she had ridden in one of those.  Then her nose wrinkled at the memory of how many of those had blown up rather violently.

"'Ey Louie!"

Lorilune's head jerked up as she saw Big Mek Wingnut jumping up and down proudly in the open bed of the nearest mobile scrapheap.

"I'z got us some Wagons just like you asked.  Now'z we good to go?"

A frown crossed Lorilune's face.  "This is it?  Two Battlewagons?  Are you aware that the Marines have three tanks of their own as well as a mobile force of bikes?  We'll be cut to shreds!"

"Uh, well..." sputtered Wingnut, "Dat's all the Wagons I could get.  The fall done smashed most of 'em."

"You are joking, aren't you?" jabbed Lorilune, "An entire starship and all you could muster is a lousy set of wheeled transports?"

"Well, no..." admitted Wingnut, "I did get enough ta work on BigToof."

"Oh, wonderful," said Lorilune with an extra layer of sarcasm, "You fixed up that moronic monstrosity.  How droll.  Let me guess, you made him bigger?"

"Yup!" said Wingnut, pleased to see that Big Louie was at least using happy words again, "I done did dat.  'Course I mighta overdone it a bit."

The ground trembled, knocking everyone off their feet and an enormous bellow rattled through the air.

"'EY LOUIE!  IS DAT YOU?  EVERYFING'S SO SMALL NOW!"

Lorilune scrambled to her feet and gasped as an enormous... thing blocked out the sun.
Swallowing, she said to Wingnut, "Yes... yes I think that will do, Wingnut.  That will do indeed."

-------------------------------------------------------

"Sir, may I please remind you that all of this is highly irregular."

Librarian Sigmund Novenus of the Ultramarines tried again to reason with his golden-locked superior who was humming to himself while cleaning his Thunder Hammer.
A shining gleam flicked off his perfect grin as Captain Excelsior Maximus laughed at his austere partner.  Sunshine flickered in through the verdant trees and Maximus shook his head.

"Sigmund, Sigmund, Sigmund.  My friend, you are worrying yourself to death.  After all, the Universe couldn't be better?"

Novenus raised an eyebrow, "Sir, you mean the Massive Warp Storms that have split the Imperium?  The Fall of Cadia?  The sudden appearance of an Ork WAARGH that threatens the safety of this entire sector?"

"No, no, no, Sigmund.  You're looking about this the wrong way.  The Primarch is back.  It proves that indeed, all this time, WE were right and all those fiddling little mongrel chapters had it all dead wrong."

Novenus paused, "Sir, the reports do state that Roboute Guilliman was not necessarily pleased with how the..."

"Abupbupbup, Sigmund, now that's looking at the empty half of the glass.  The Great Guilliman simply sees things in a way that is beyond mortal comprehension.  Why the complexities of the mind of a Primarch are such above even my own, it would be like comparing my own massive intellect with I don't know... a Space Wolf or something.  With Guilliman in charge, nothing can possibily go wrong."

"Yes, sir.  That's... one way to see it.  But, surely deciding to lead a very limited hunting party on your own without reinforcements could be seen as... overconfidence."

"Overconfidence, Sigmund?  You wound me.  Why, we aren't dealing with something as complex as Gr... Grum..." the Space Marine Captain paused as he stifled what surely couldn't be a spasm of dread, what with the Astartes feeling no fear and all, "THAT Ork isn't here.  We just have stragglers that need sword and bolter to send to the wind."

"I... suppose so, sir.  But, cleansing a world completely from Orks is a nigh-impossible goal."

"That's why we're here Sigmund.  Because we're Ultramarines.  We DO the Impossible.  I wonder if this is how Guilliman felt when he began the Great Crusade.  Standing on the edge of civilization looking out into the unknown with only the assured knowledge that victory will soon be in your grasp...  Stunning, isn't it?"

Novenus was about to respond when the the ground shook and birds took to the skies.  Something was coming.  Something big.

A giant, half-rusted mechanical head the size of a Predator turned the corner around a hill and the air echoed with an off-tune whistle that burst into something resembling song,

"WHOZ DA BEST?  GREENZ DA BEST!  WHOZ DA BEST?  ORKS DA BEST!  ORKS ORKS ORKS ORKS ORKS ORKS ORKS ORKS..."

The two Marines stood in shocked silence for a moment before Maximus spoke.

"Sigmund?  I think we're going to need a bigger boat."
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To Be Continued!
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General 40k and Expansions / Re: 8th Edition First Impressions (Salt warning)
« Last post by Waaaghpower on June 20, 2017, 03:47:22 AM »
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I've not had anything that I've ever fielded rendered unusable by a rule change since third edition.  The change from second to third edition was so significant that it was bound to invalidate some options, but otherwise I've fielded more or less the same units with the same weapons since third edition.  I don't optimise my wargear/units for particular editions, I pretty much use them as is.  If that means some weapons are less effective from one edition to the next, that's just the way it is.  This is why I prefer all round lists which are not excessively tailored or optimised.
I don't optimize my armies for maximum competitive power either, but I do generally like to have my units optimized, or at least not intentionally crap, since I hate feeling like I'm intentionally wasting points. For example, with the new Inquisitorial Acolytes, I will not be using any of them with Laspistols. Bolt Pistols are the same cost, and unambiguously better for zero downside. Also, I haven't been playing since 3rd, I've been playing since 5th, and I tend to get new models and units regularly - I played only Orks in 5th, added Space Wolves, then Space Marines, then Inquisition, then Sisters of Battle in 6th, then added Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and a few other minor bits here and there in 7th. (Assassins, Astra Telepathica, etc.) I built those with whatever seemed coolest at the time.

However, most of my invalidated units are simply combinations that I think were cool: I took an Inquisitor with two Daemonblades, because the idea of him carrying around the souls of Daemons in order to achieve the maximum human potential of power is really cool to me. On the board, it was a crapshoot - Sometimes incredibly powerful, sometimes worthless - But it was always fun to play.
All of my models that I built to have WYSIWYG with relics (Most pertinently, my Wolf Lord who I gave a bonesword, so that he could really weild the Krakenbone Sword, and my Librarian who I gave a Thunder Hammer from the Iron Hands upgrade pack so that he could have the Mindforge Stage), are not really useable. My Wolf Lord can, I guess, have a Relic Blade? But that Librarian can't be a Librarian anymore. My Cataphractii Captain with a Storm Shield is bust. Sororitas Command Squads don't exist anymore, Psycollum doesn't exist anymore, and Condemner Boltguns barely do anything anymore, so I have nothing to do with the five Condemner Boltguns that I have five Sisters all armed with. Most of my Deathwatch are bust (Though incidentally, they randomly and suddenly allow Deathwatch Veterans to take Bolt Pistols, which they don't have parts for and require kitbashing because that didn't exist in 7th).

Usually, my list building involved a sort of reverse optimization: I would pick a list or army style that I want to try, then retroactively figure out how to make that list good. I've played melee-centric Adepta Sororitas, Space Marine Parking Lots, pure Inquisition, pretty much anything I could think of that sounded fun. Sometimes that would lead me to stumble upon something genuinely OP, but OP lists are incredibly boring to play, so those lists usually get shelved after a single use.


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GW has always taken this approach with their rules, as you alluded to above.  The only difference this time is that any changes will probably be made more quickly.  If there are combinations that you are convinced that they may change, hold off constructing the models until there has been a review.  I doubt that you would have to wait that long.
My Inquisition models were legal since the beginning of 6th edition. Are you saying that I should have held off for that long? Sometimes those changes can be predicted (For example, it's not too surprising that they changed Deathwatch a few months after the codex came out,) but other ones are a complete, unfair crapshoot. (How in the heck am I supposed to predict that an entire unit is going to be axed from the SoB codex?)

Also: I shouldn't have to wait six months or a year to find out if GW is going to pull out the rug on me before I start building my kits.  If they can't decide what they want to allow before they release it, they shouldn't punish players for that.

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Randomisation is tedious, I agree and I also prefer heterogeneity to homogeneity, however, I would have to be persuaded that this edition involved too much homogenisation.  This is not to say that I think that eighth is somehow a silver bullet to all the problems with GW's rules.  I do not believe this for one minute, but I do think that, in a number of respects, it is a step in the right direction.
I don't have exact data on it, but I think that a lot of weapon profiles across armies definitely are a lot similar. If you look for the number of weapons that used to have different rules, and are now S8 AP-4 Bonus Damage at Half Range, or S9 AP-3 D6 damage, I think you'll find that a lot more weapons have a lot in common. Also, the loss of AP5 and AP6 equivalents means that most anti-infantry weapons are a lot more similar in effect, as is the fact that all weapons are useable on all things - Since S3 can now hurt tanks just as well as S4, instead of S3 being useless against tanks, but S4 being sometimes capable of glancing tanks from the rear.

Why should I take a Vindicator over a Predator now? Or visa versa? You get +1 Strength and D3/D6 shots instead of 4. They do the same battlefield role. What's to get excited about? A slightly different type of rolling that does the same thing? I may as well just go with whichever gives the slightly better cost/damage ratio and call it good.

Combi-Weapons are just regular Special Weapons plus Bolter Shots. Flamers fill almost the exact same niche as Storm Bolters, getting almost the same number of average hits and doing the same damage since it no longer ignores cover. Plasma Cannons actually do the same amount of average damage as Plasma Guns when within 12", since D3 shots means 2 shots and that's what you get from a Rapid Fire weapon anyways. The Command Land Raider now just gives the same benefits as a Space Marine Captain.
Captains give re-rolls on 1s to hit. Chaplains give re-rolls on hits in Close Combat.
A regular Captain is as accurate as Cypher now, because 2+ with Rerolls on 1s can't get any better than it is. 
Ork Deep Strike is equally as accurate as Space Marine Deep Strike and Eldar Deep Strike.
Chapter Tactics and Marks of Chaos have been axed. (And no, 'Just wait for codices' is not a good counter-argument. There's no reason why they couldn't have included them in half a page in their respective books, and having to wait months or more to get content back to the point it was pre-update is crappy.) A unit of Chaos Space Marines now plays identically to a unit of Space Marines in almost all circumstances.

Acts of Faith give the same buffs to every unit, and one of those buffs - Recovering wounds - Is actually the same as an ability provided by other units. (Actually, Hospitallers are just less versatile versions of Imagifiers, since they do the same thing as an act of faith: On a 4+, recover wounds for a nearby unit.)

Also, this is a minor point, but Ministorum Priests only give one buff, and it's only useful to a tiny number of units that could potentially take it, and Astra Telepathica really only help IG.

I could keep going, too. For a really, really long time. But I think this helps make the point.

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The comments pertaining to overpowered combinations are issues that I find unpersuasive.  Having played Rogue Trader and second edition, most of the balance issues since then have been far less serious.  There are likely to be balance issues, but this has been true for all editions.  I think that it's far too early to complain about balance in eighth when there's so little data to analyse at this juncture.
I don't mind imbalance, but I do mind imbalance in this particular context: If the whole point of 8th edition was to flatten out the balance, and that's why they had to sacrifice the unique abilities, weapons, and rules that all the different armies and units have, that's fine. But when they remove all of those things, and the game is still increadibly breakable at a glance, that's a major problem. (And from all of the data I have: The deployment rules are crap, and first turn leads to an almost guaranteed win. I've played four games, and this has been true from all four games, plus all of the games I've heard about from other players, with one exception: A killpoints game between pure Imperial Knights and Orks, in which first turn did not matter.) This will require more time to confirm for certain, but it seems pretty clear already that the rules for deployment and first turn are incredibly imbalanced and unfair.

It feels like, instead of trying to balance the game, they just tried to remove all of the things people were complaining about instead, without realizing that their new fixes caused new breaks.


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I get the impression that you play a lot on a highly competitive tournament scene.  That has never been my cup of tea.  I'm a casual player.  I suspect that this is the main reason why we have a number of divergent views, although we do agree on some points.
Not really. I play with one CSM friend at his house, and then a group of friends at an LGS, and another group of friends on different days at the same LGS. If I were a WAAC player, I'd be happy about how cheesy the new edition appears to be: More tournaments for me to break, after all!
I'm disappointed because I like playing with all my different toys. I like putting down my big models and smashing them together while making dinosaur noises. (Proverbially*.) It's a game, I enjoy playing with it, and by stripping out a ton of options and ways to play (While ironically adding two game modes that are unplayable if you want a remotely fair game,) GW has removed many of my favorite things.
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They are pretty good, but they do suffer with the AP 0... then again ALL basic infantry weapons suffer with AP 0.  The thing that I wish that GW would have done was do some real play testing.  The variable number of shots might give some surprises in the game, it most of the time fails to be anything but disappointing.

As you said, Waaagh, storm bolters are better.  This is because you have a guaranteed number of shots.   Flamers MIGHT get 6 shots, but are just as likely as getting ONE shot.  Storm Bolters also have a better range to get those guaranteed 4 shots than the flamer.  That makes the flamer so overpriced it's not even funny.  I mean for the cost of one flamer, I can have 4 storm bolters and still have a point left over (going by match points and not power points)
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General 40k and Expansions / Re: 8th Edition First Impressions (Salt warning)
« Last post by Irisado on June 18, 2017, 11:30:25 AM »
I've not had anything that I've ever fielded rendered unusable by a rule change since third edition.  The change from second to third edition was so significant that it was bound to invalidate some options, but otherwise I've fielded more or less the same units with the same weapons since third edition.  I don't optimise my wargear/units for particular editions, I pretty much use them as is.  If that means some weapons are less effective from one edition to the next, that's just the way it is.  This is why I prefer all round lists which are not excessively tailored or optimised.

GW has always taken this approach with their rules, as you alluded to above.  The only difference this time is that any changes will probably be made more quickly.  If there are combinations that you are convinced that they may change, hold off constructing the models until there has been a review.  I doubt that you would have to wait that long.

Randomisation is tedious, I agree and I also prefer heterogeneity to homogeneity, however, I would have to be persuaded that this edition involved too much homogenisation.  This is not to say that I think that eighth is somehow a silver bullet to all the problems with GW's rules.  I do not believe this for one minute, but I do think that, in a number of respects, it is a step in the right direction.

The comments pertaining to overpowered combinations are issues that I find unpersuasive.  Having played Rogue Trader and second edition, most of the balance issues since then have been far less serious.  There are likely to be balance issues, but this has been true for all editions.  I think that it's far too early to complain about balance in eighth when there's so little data to analyse at this juncture.

I get the impression that you play a lot on a highly competitive tournament scene.  That has never been my cup of tea.  I'm a casual player.  I suspect that this is the main reason why we have a number of divergent views, although we do agree on some points.
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General 40k and Expansions / Re: 8th Edition First Impressions (Salt warning)
« Last post by Waaaghpower on June 17, 2017, 06:18:52 PM »
I'm just going to respond to one specific thing, Irisado:
That 'Living ruleset' thing scares me.

GW has a recent track record of  scratching out previously legal sets of wargear, if not axing them entirely. I've mostly only talked about rules complaints here, but this is actually a modeling complaint:
I like my army to be WYSIWYG. I like my army to look cool and be painted. Painting up units that I enjoy playing with was one of the most satisfying things about the game for me.

And I don't want do that anymore, because I'm freakin' sick of Games Workshop pulling out the rug from under me about what wargear choices are legal. This isn't even including the gearsets that remain legal, but become deoptimized to the point of only belonging in 'Haha this is a sillyfun list', like 6th Edition Flash Gitz.

The first example that comes to mind is my Wolf Guard. On bikes, I can give them their built in Twin Boltguns and add Storm Bolters, and they still have a Chainsword/Pistol. They're so far not particularly overwhelming, but putting out 8 shots per model is really heckin' satisfying and fun.

And I don't want to risk assembling these guys up and investing time and energy getting them WYSIWYG and legal, because I just *know* that the moment I get them done, some designer is going to look at them and decide, "Huh, we should probably disalow this", and... I dunno, make it illegal, or give Storm Bolters a -1 to hit, or quadruple their points cost or something.

(If you're not convinced, I can provide a full ledger of models in my collection that I can't use, or at least can't use viably, because they were at some point decided to be either cheesy (regardless of if they are,) unrealistic, or just plain I-don't-know-why.


Also I lied, I'll briefly respond to your other points:
Abstraction and streamlining are fine. It's randomization and homogenization that I find boring.
List Building ceases to be an issue with third party apps, but needing someone else to come fix your game is never good.

The buffs (and, as it turns out, measurig to see who the closest unit is for Consolidation and shooting at characters) absolutely is tedious. I played two games last night, both of them revolved heavily about staying in or outof bubbles, drivibg around to get close to characters, and exploiting the deployment rules for better positioning and first turn.

I played 40k for its diversity and color. Stripping that out for balance would impress me more, but I'm four games deep and am not hugely impressed by that balance. Cheese abounds already.
6
General 40k and Expansions / Re: 8th Edition First Impressions (Salt warning)
« Last post by Irisado on June 17, 2017, 11:19:40 AM »
@Irisado
As Deraj commented, those were two different complaints. I have no problem with a couple of weapons using random dice rolls, and in the case of the Shokk Attack Gun those rolls both added a trade-off - It was a very powerful gun, (Large blast, usually high strength, AP2,) but had the potential to blow up in your face - and they added a ton of flavor, since it made sense that Orky weaponry of that caliber would never be reliable.
My problem is not with one weapon having an ability like this, it's that I don't want EVERY weapon to function like this. One weapon being randomized adds flavor and intrigue, every weapon (Or at least every blast, template, or high-damage weapon) being randomized regardless of fluff or army is just frustrating to play. (For the same reason, I don't mind the randomized rolls on a Loota's Deffguns, but I think it's idiotic to have the exact same randomized rolls for Predator Autocannons.)

It's a trade-off.  Some people will like it others will not.  The fact of the matter is though that more abstraction was always going to be more likely for this edition, owing to the fact that seventh had become far too detailed and had far too many unit and weapon specific rules.  The approach is, therefore, one of standardisation.  Yes, this results in some character being lost for certain units and weapons, but it does help to streamline the game.  I'm neither saying that it's a good thing nor a bad thing at this stage, but I will say that I think that it's less of an issue than you're suggesting.

I remember when second edition was streamlined into third edition and there were a lot of complaints about the loss of diversity and specialisation, many of which are similar to the points that you're making in this topic.  The vast majority of players got used to it though, and as third edition progressed and then moved into subsequent editions, those complaints disappeared for the most part.  I've thus seen it all before and I think that it is wise to let the changes sink in before getting too worked up about them :).

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As for your comments of streamlining: The game seems to be streamlined in all the wrong ways:
Building your army takes twice as long as it used to, firing large weapons requires two extra rolls, and moving characters around with infantry squads now requires tons of precise, careful measuring to ensure that all of your AoE buffs are hitting everyone they need to, since you can't just say 'He's attached to that squad, therefore they get his buffs' anymore.

I read contradictory opinions about army list building, so I think that the jury is still out on that one.  I agree that there is still too much dice rolling though.  As for buffs, I don't think that this is that big a deal.  It just takes some getting used to.

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All of the streamlining is in unit variety and weapon variety. Even though adding armor save modifiers and damage dice seems like the perfect opportunity to make weapons feel more diverse, I can't help but look at the massive sheets of different weapon options and feel like everything looks like exactly the same thing. Guardian Spears and Sentinel Blades feel like almost the exact same weapon. Power Lances and Power Mauls literally do the exact same thing. Every kind of Deep Strike feels exactly the same. Heck, the Exorcist Missile Launcher now just feels like any other explosive blast weapon, since every single weapon now shares the same gimmick. They didn't cut down on clutter, they cut down on variety.

This is similar to the transition between second and third edition.  It will seem strange to start with.  I recommend giving it some time to settle down.  GW had to reduce diversity to make the game more user friendly in my opinion.  It was impossible to return the amount of diversity between units and weapons as had been the case in seventh edition without also retaining the complexity in the rules which had, in my view, reached absurd levels.

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I wasn't around for the 2nd/3rd edition Transition, so I can't comment on that, but what I CAN say is that I... Don't think that it's a good thing to be compared to? From what I've heard, there was tons of cheese and broken rules in 3rd edition, with players completely destroying the game with various broken lists. That doesn't make me feel better, it makes me feel more concerned for the future of the edition.

There have been numerous overpowered units and broken rules in all editions of 40K.  Every edition of 40K has, eventually, fallen into the broken list trap, so trying to single out one edition over another in this respect is an exercise in futility.  Third edition had its problems, notably the Rhino Rush, and the fact that it was the first edition using a completely different approach to the rules.  However, the difference compared to eighth is that because eighth is meant to be a living rulebook, updates and improvements can be made more quickly than was the case under the old rulebook and codex system.  I really don't understand, therefore, why you're claiming that it won't help.

I do agree with you that it's not a good idea to give players exactly what they want.  Direct democracy is a flawed concept in both Politics and wargaming, however, seventh edition had broken the previous model for rules beyond repair, so GW had to make radical changes.
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General 40k and Expansions / Re: 8th Edition First Impressions (Salt warning)
« Last post by Waaaghpower on June 17, 2017, 09:27:04 AM »
After playing two more games:
The mechanics of going first are immensely, incredibly broken and unfair. Winning the roll-off and getting to pick deployment zone is an immense advantage for shooting armies (who can effectively give themselves an extra 12" of buffer space), and I predict with complete that tournament lists will be built around having as minimal deployment as is possible while maximizing CPs.
Or, y'know, Tournies will houserule this mechanic away.
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General 40k and Expansions / Re: 8th Edition First Impressions (Salt warning)
« Last post by BigToof on June 16, 2017, 09:52:56 AM »
I'm actually quite excited to play 8th.
7th had become just too bloated to try and introduce to anyone and some of the older armies (Orks, Dark Eldar, Tyranids) seem to have gotten some punch, while there have been nerfs (notably Tau).
But most of all, I'm glad that a lot of the excess rules have been cut out and I hope that as codexes are reintroduced there will be more flavour added as well...
Best,
-BT
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Enemies of the Imperium / Re: BigToof's Dark Eldar Tactica, part 1: Reavers
« Last post by BigToof on June 16, 2017, 09:48:56 AM »
Waiting for 8th honestly.
If the rumours for the Dark Eldar is true, there will be new content soon!

Best,
-BT
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General 40k and Expansions / Re: 8th Edition First Impressions (Salt warning)
« Last post by Mabbz on June 15, 2017, 09:42:15 PM »
So I just had my first proper look at the new rules, and played a 750 point game with my Tau vs mechanicus. In the interest of getting the game started, I just took my old 750pts list and worked out how much it was now, and worked it out (very, very wrongly) as 743pts. Initially I thought the Index was ok-ish in terms of writing, a bit cramped and it was weird that the points were in a different place than each armies actual rules, but ok.

After the game, I found I had misunderstood one aspect of the points system; specifically, the pts/model listed doesn't even include their base wargear unless stated otherwise (i.e. just special characters and drones for the tau). So my two standard broadsides (Heavy Rail Rifle and 2x SMS) that I thought I paid 80pts each for, should have been more like 183pts/model. Why basic wargear isn't included in the price, I do not know. Suffice it to say, I won the game since my army was about twice the points of my opponent's.

The hugely expensive broadsides seemed weird to me, but I figured, well, maybe everything is more expensive this edition. And for the most part that does look true (also, broadsides did get a buff to survivability, with an extra wound and toughness). Then I noticed the Gun Drones.

Drones cost 64pts for a maxed out squad. Unlike most models, that basic cost includes their weapons: two pulse carbines. Since all models can fire all their weapons this edition, and twin linking is gone, that means that 64pts squad puts out 32 pulse rounds at 18". Now bear in mind that in addition to normal drone teams, I can take them on every character, vehicle and a lot of other units. Sure they're inaccurate, but we have drone controllers, markerlights and commander abilities for that. They're short ranged, but they're pretty fast and RAW means they can benefit from a pathfinder team's pulse accelerator drone. They're moderately tough in large numbers, they can act as shields for characters within 6" (who can't even be targeted unless they're nearest).

Part of me is thrilled; I've always wanted to do a drone army (I'll have to update my old Commander Dronestorm house rules to 8th). But I feel this shows the biggest shift in the meta with 8th edition. I expect hordes to be king.



On the core gameplay front, I didn't have any real problems with it. I'm still not sure I like the removal of the initiative system for combat (despite playing as Tau), but it isn't terrible. I would have preferred to keep initiative combat, and change the +1A for charging to +1I or something.

Shooting seems pretty solid, although I strongly recommend taking invulnerable saves now. Vehicle explosions cause mortal wounds, which was a bit unpleasant and killed my commander. My Broadsides did barely anything with their Heavy Rail Rifles thanks to their average Bs and some bad rolling on my part, which I felt emphasized my point about hordes; big, powerful guns can be effective, but can also be unreliable, especially where Invulnerable save are involved.

Movement seems fine, although I couldn't find rules for moving through terrain.

I quite like the new Morale system. It's simple, effective, and gives an advantage to single model units that I feel would otherwise not be as competitive in 8th.
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