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Author Topic: Why No Love for Deff Dreads?  (Read 3487 times)

Offline Waaaghpower

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Why No Love for Deff Dreads?
« on: March 19, 2013, 03:40:09 PM »
So, I'm considering buying a Deff Dread, but I had a thought: Why doesn't anyone else use them? I have yet to see my opponents put one on the board when I play against orks.
On the other hand, I'm wondering what the big deal about Kans is? Their crappy armor and mere 2 hull points means that in Killpoint or Big Guns games they are just free kill points. Their guns are decent anti infantry, but orks have plenty of anti infantry as it is. They are too low in Weapon Skill and attacks to be useful in close combat
 Every time I see them, they loose some mediocre anti boys shots, do almost nothing, and die.

So: What's the point of Kans, and what's so bad about Dreads since nobody takes them? I can't imagine a dread with 2 Skorchas as anything other than a beast.
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Offline Naser Al-Istikhara Cyrus

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Re: Why No Love for Deff Dreads?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2013, 04:05:23 PM »
The problem with a dread with 2 scorchas is that it torches too much for it to charge into combat.

Killa kans have 2 roles: Anti-infantry shooting or assaulting things that are either tanks, or >S4 enemies. It also requires more than 1 shot to kill 100 points of killa kans.

I usually run 3 with grotzookas.

One thing i found with ork walkers is they get focused on. Whether a killa kan or a dread, same amount of attention. So i find that when i take a dread, it dies before it can really do its job - but with 3 kans, they either soak up a heap of fire, or take out a heap of my opponent. I've played in games vs tau for example where he was firing his railguns at the kans, giving my looted boomgun wagon free roam of the board.

That's all from my experience though; different LGS have different meta, and this may alter the outcome. Perhaps some people use dreads to some effect.
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Offline Waaaghpower

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Re: Why No Love for Deff Dreads?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2013, 04:41:29 PM »
Maybe it's just because I'm orks that Kans die so easily. Deff guns are better at killing lots of weak tanks than one Land Raider. (Obviously.)
Still, the guys at my game store prefer focusing on my Battlewagon. Or battlewagons. If I were to take dreads, it would be on mech heavy lists with larger threats on the board than one walker.
Also, I have no problems with killing too mamy enemies in the shooting phase to assault them.
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Offline SILK

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Re: Why No Love for Deff Dreads?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2013, 08:11:33 PM »
The main problem with deff dreads is that they exist in 6th edition for around 100 points.

Dreadnaughts have changed roles in recent years, and deff dreads haven't caught up with the times. If you look at the popular configurations of the good dreads out there then you will soon realise that they are mainly shooting roles. 2x Autocannons, psyflemen, Las + missile. All designed to screw over light to medium tanks or to destroy medium armour save troops. Ork dreads just can't do that. Sure, we can kick out alot of firepower for one model, nobody is going to sniff at 6 strength 5 shots a turn, but it is our ballistic skill that really makes the model suffer. Throw in that grenades are far more deadly for dreadnaughts and overwatch is a bitch and you may never actually see close combat with the expensive tin can.

And lets not forget one of the major points here: You're walking. There is no sneaky out flanking, no drop pods, no teleportation. If a deff dread wants to do what it does best it's going to have to trundle up the table at a measly 6 inches a turn. That's rather pathetic. Sure, it can run D6 every turn if it wishes, but then you're forgoing a shooting phase or two. Or you could upgrade to two extra close combat weapons in place of the shooty stuff, but then you're making an already costly model even more expensive, and that's just not a good idea. The only combat dreadnaughts out there that actually make it into combat have some way to cause pressure on the enemy units.

And last but not least it's time to look at just what they take up in the army. We've already covered that they cost in the region of 100 points for a model that is only really any good in one phase (and usually one turn) so they naturally cost an arm and a leg for what amounts to little more than a distraction, but they also take up a heavy support choice. That slot can be better spent on Battlewagons or the nicely buffed big gun units. bot do the role of the Ork Dreadnaught better. A battlewagon with deff rolla filled to bursting point with boyz will make mincemeat out of most things, whether they are equipped with shootas or choppas. The big guns do what most modern dreads do and provide a good amount of tough, somewhat reliable, hitting power at long ranges. As far as I am concerned, those are the only two options for heavy support in our codex, and the Dreadnaught doesn't come close to contesting either. So if you take a dread then you're detracting from the good stuff that is still available in the aging book.

And yes, I know that you can take up to two dreads as troops. But that sufferes from the problem of taking away slots for shoota boyz, one of the little golden wonders that we have in the book. Ork lists are usually struggling for troop slots so every dreadnaught takes away another trukk, mob or grot squad. Hell, if you go dreadnaught heavy then you're looking at ditching scoring Nob bikers. Which is silly. Whilst Nob bikers aren't to everyones tastes,and they do have flaws, they are one of the most potent units that we have in the book, keep using them whilst we can.

But this isn't a thread about a rant against Deff dreads. It's about finding a way to use one of the most Orky units ever! If you are wanting dreadnaughts theres two ways to try them: Lots and one. Now, when I say one I don't intend to go against what I said above, what I mean is if you find yourself with 100 points and a heavy support slot burning a hole in your pocket then pick up a dread. Keep him as cheap as you can, add grot riggers, and have him run at the enemy general. The thinking is thus: your opponent has a choice to make - to shoot the battlewagons and boyz that a streaming towards his lines putting out a torrent of bullets, or to shoot the little dread that is not a threat for a turn or two. The idea is to take advantage of target priority and have the dreadnaught ignored until he has a chance to insta-gib a squishy general with his strength 10 attacks.

The other idea, if you wanna go dread happy, is to build a full list of them using imperial armour 8 and just let sheer weight of deff dreads overwhelm your opponents heavy weapons.

Hope this helps.

Offline Waaaghpower

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Re: Why No Love for Deff Dreads?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2013, 08:27:41 PM »
Wow, really helpful. How do you give positive karma on here? (Or can you?)
Anyways...
I personally never fill up my troops slots in mid sized games, and usually by the time I get enough points to do that I've got an extra FOC. This might be a sign I'm doing something wrong, but I usually like spending my points on juicy heavy support choices or Elites.
I do love biker nobz, but if I'm taking them that's typically almost half my army, in which case filling up my chart is never an issue because I've burned so many points.
Bearing your advice in mind, though, I'll probably only run them in high or low point games. High, because there will be so many larger threats they are ignored, or low because my enemy won't be able to put down much really heavy firepower.

Do you think they'll be decent at Monstrous Creature Killin'? I have trouble with tyranids a lot.
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Offline SILK

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Re: Why No Love for Deff Dreads?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2013, 09:34:31 PM »
Hard to say really as I don't have that much experience in dealing with them. If you come across something like a carnifex then you should be good as you are striking at more or less the same initiative. But anything higher than the dread and it's dead.

Offline Arguleon-veq

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Re: Why No Love for Deff Dreads?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2013, 01:09:15 AM »
Silks got it pretty much spot on. Dreads of all types only really work these days as gun platforms to deal with light armour. The only other workable dreads that dont follow this pattern have extra special rules that make them workable, you have the Maulerfiend who's speed and extra resilience mean that it is better at taking enemy firepower and that it can pick ideal targets for combat. The Blood Angel Furioso has a better AV and can use a Drop Pod to get into Frag Cannon/Melta range nice and early and then use that lovely Frag Cannon for overwatch.

As has been said, they only really work if you have lots of other targets with a half decent armour value thanks to target saturation. The one thing going for Ork Dreads though is that they are cheap and can pack a couple of guns without losing much combat power. 3 Dreads with a pair of big shootas each doesnt really set you back many points, has to be dealt with before combat and puts out 18 shots on the move. It works against less optimised lists, the kind of lists you see with odd heavy weapons spread around tac squads etc, bit of everything lists. They cant cut it against anything optimised such as the lists packing all the S7 shots you see these days.

They are pretty terrible against MC's just because your going to die before you get to strike. In small games they are pretty nice thanks to the low points cost and half decent AV. I wouldnt like to face a Dread at say 500 pts especially as its shooting can down a few marines a turn if it gets lucky too.
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Offline Kur'os

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Re: Why No Love for Deff Dreads?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2013, 08:58:14 PM »
I have all the love in the world for my Deff Dreads!  To be honest, they are why I even play orks. 

Who wouldn't want to field a 20' tall, 4 armed mech held together by duct-tape and elbow grease?  Dreads are all that is orky.  And as troops nonetheless?  Yes please. 

I run 'Dread mob' lists.  Not actual Dread Mobs (I.E. Imperial Armor) yet, but I'm getting there...  it'll be a while before I can field 15 Dreads.  >:]

Surprising at it may sound, I've had many games where my opponents simply weren't prepared for walkers.  Perhaps it's just my local meta, but there have been times where only a couple enemy models were even capable of glancing me.  The most common situation being grenades nowadays. 

To worsen my position on the matter, I don't field my Dreads with anything but 2 Skorchas or a Skorcha / extra DCCW.  90% of the time, my orks carry more burnas and skorchas than I have models on the table...  >.>;;

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