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Tau: Best Way to Deal with AV13+ Spam?

Started by Carrelio, April 07, 2013, 08:02:36 PM

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Carrelio

Hey SS,

With the new codex out there have been some major changes.  I still don't have my codex... and GW tells me they have yet to ship my order... but they assure me it will come in by the 17th (maybe), so for now I'm just working from memory on the leaked codex pages.  This means my overall scope of the army is a little limited, but I think I've got a pretty good idea of what's going on.  Clearly, some things have changed.

This brings us to the point of this thread.  Among the largest changes I have noticed are the change to mobility (the army has slowed down significantly), the reliance on markerlights (units are really no longer all that self reliant), and the drastic decrease in the number of S10 AP1 weapons we can bring to the field.  The last one is of the most concern to me.  From what I can tell, our codex is absolutely brimming with options to take out anything except AV13+.

Given that AV13+ is a very popular build in my area with several IG parkinglots, and Necron barge spam lists floating around I'm looking for a way to fill the gap left by the earth caste's decision to make broadsides into anti-flyer/monstrous creature units.  So I thought I'd look at our options and the costs in the hopes of finding the most useful counter to AV13+ spam.  I'll do my best to include other factors as well... but I'm a little limited for time at the moment.

Lets start where we left off in the last codex... the broadside, the be all and end all of anti-tank.

The broadside now has two options, the heavy rail rifle (HRR), or the high yield missile pods (HYMP).
The HRR broadside is able to glance right the way up to AV14, and pen up to AV13. This is a good start... but with a limited fire rate, we're not going to exactly be bringing the pain to the AV13+ vehicles. Against AV13, the HRR will glance 25% of the time, and destroy the vehicle outright 6.25% of the time... so those are not great odds.  What the HRR broadside is good at though is taking down heavy infantry and monstrous creatures!  AP1 is great against anything with an armour save, and S8 means that even high toughness monsters are not bothering you too badly.  Considering we're in an age of Riptides, dreadknights, and tyranid monster mash lists... it might not be a bad idea to bring a team of these along.
Missiles being S7 make the HYMP great at glancing lighter vehicles to death. A team of 3 should be consistently stripping hull points off of anything AV12 and below with a small chance at chipping down an AV13.  However, this build struggles against heavy infantry and monstrous creatures because of the relatively uninteresting AP4.  It makes a great light transport hunter, and will do wonders in the anti-flyer department. But it's not what we're looking for for AV13+ (especially since it can't even damage AV14).

So the answer isn't in the broadsides... not cost effectively at any rate.  What about the hammerhead? From the looks of things, GW did envision this thing as what anti-tank in the Tau army should be.

So we've got the railhead and the ionhead. Lets start with rail... because it's the only S10 weapon in our army. Well... it's a lot cheaper... which is really nice. But it's identical in anti-tank performance to the old one. We all know the old one's job was anti-infantry with the pie plate... but now that we have such an abundance of AP4 pieplates, and it costs extra, things are different.  Naked, it's better at AV13+ than the new broadsides... but only just (against AV13 2 broadsides will likely cost less and be a smidgeon better at exploding the vehicle).  Its effectiveness is capped by its lower volume of fire and its immobility. It's the best option for AV14 so far... and pretty on par for AV13...
The ion cannon is now a nice option.  It is pretty similar to the the HYMP in that it will be pretty good (as it was) against light tanks and transports... and it will even be alright against the lighter armoured monstrous creatures.  The large blast makes it good against MEQ blobs too.  We might see more of these around... but I wouldn't predict they will be for anti AV13+.
Longstrike is interesting because he provides some big advantages against guard tanks (the number one supplier of true AV13+ vehicles in the my meta at the moment).  He is well balanced... not a must take, but situationally very useful.

That's the end of the heavy support, so lets look at something in the elite section (and HQ)... battlesuits (specifically using the fusion blaster).
These got nastier.  The fusion blaster is now 18" meaning they can stay a little safer in melta-ing vehicles. melta is definitely a reliable way of exploding AV13+ vehicles... but the issue will still be getting it there. We have no form of reliable reserve manipulation or precision deepstriking... so getting close enough will be tricky.

More from the elite section we have the Riptide.
I really like it. It'll cost you an arm and a leg, but its versatile thanks to that generator.  The burst cannon on its own is fine anti-infantry, but I don't think it's too big a deal. Overcharged it does gain rending and get a billion dice... so it's not bad... the only problem is that a third of the time that generator is going to fail and 12 gets hot! shots are a big risk... for that reason  I don't see it as a really practical choice against AV13+.
The ion accelerator is a little more forgiving, and in my opinion the most versatile weapon in the book.  The regular mode is an ion cannon equivalent, so it will work against lighter vehicles and transports. The overcharged version is a big blast, so it's great for anti-meq. And the nova version is S9 ordinance!  It's risky... no denying it.  But I believe, danger aside, that makes it the most effective weapon at exploding AV13+ I've come across so far.  It even comes with more fusion blasters :D The downside is that it is very expensive and risks quite a bit of self harm...

So there we have it.  I'd like to hear your opinions on the situation.  As you can see, I haven't really been able to find an effective way with which to deal with AV13+.  Some of the options are better than others... but even the best are still not great at what I'm looking for them to do.  Thoughts? Suggestions? Comments?

The Man They Call Jayne

Don't forget the Riptides Ion Accelerator has a better AP than the regular Ion Cannon. Same as Plasma.

I had a game today where, just to be gittish about the lack of real railguns, my mate took 2 Landraiders. Frankly, I couldn't touch them. I had 3 Fusion Balsters, thanks to a Helios Squad, but it was nowhere near enough. The Redeemer turned around and flamed them into ash.

Fusion Fusion Fusion. That is what we need to do now. By all means get some real railguns up there, and the Heavy Railrifles are actually very nice, you are going to miss S10 when the time comes. Thankfully Fusion has recieved a 6" range boost, so that is helpful at least.
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KCKitsune

I think the best way we're going to deal with AV13+ is fusion blaster and disruption pod equipped piranha. 
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Carrelio

I don't know if the melta piranha is a real answer.  To be honest I don't like melta as the answer at all...

They did get a nice boost to range... but that is a much larger impact in anti-heavy-infantry (effective from 18" is great!) than for tanks, where the melta range is halved (9"). This means we have to dedicate some thought to how we're going to get our points (and in order to deal with AV13+ spam it will take a lot of points) safely in and out of that situation... and fast...

Now, why the piranha concerns me is a multipart problem.  Yes it can get in fast... but it doesn't have a reliable way of getting out again, and it's just too fragile to try to weather the storm of return fire.  It's also only BS3... which isn't bad in and of itself, I mean our whole codex is essentially BS3... but where are you upgrading that BS3 from? Markerlights. And where are they coming from? The fast attack section. So now we've got the issue of a pretty poor shot taking up the very slot that is providing that support not just to them but to the whole army.  I don't even know if we'd have enough markerlight support to pop enough tanks normally (that would require some study)... Without markerlight support I believe we'd need around 3 piranhas to reliably explode an AV13+ tank, but that's a lot of points to have stuck right in front of the enemy's main battle line (even with a 4+ save).

I think battlesuits are a slightly better choice for this.  Though they will need to rely on deepstrike to close the distance (and without any form of reserve manipulation we could be waiting a long time for them if you have a bad roll or two).  They do at least get J-S-J and you can twin-link the fusion blaster to help with accuracy.  I don't know though... the deepstrike will likely mean you're scattering either outside of melta or even closer into the danger zone.  You at least get a second jump to help you out.

These still don't feel like real solutions for me.  Makes me really empathize for the sisters of battle.  Melta is their only effective way to crack AV13+, they are a slow shooting army.  Oh my god... we've become nuns with (better) guns!

KCKitsune

Maybe GW will see that and give us armor bane for our railguns.  I mean honestly without it we are screwed when we take on a IG with a lot of tanks.  If you take two hammerheads with railguns then you know those will be the FIRST thing that will die.  The rest of the roster is toast.
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Carrelio

That sounds rather overly optimistic to me :P these are the people who looked the other way in 5th edition when the Tau said "Please help... Aun'Va, Shadowsun, Farsight, ethereals, very squish troops, overpriced transports, pathfinders with mandatory overpriced transports, vespid, sniper drones, and the sky ray could really use a fix."
GW isn't big on admitting its mistakes.  I think we've got what we're getting and we'd better get dug in and find a way in classic Tau fashion to overcome the shortcomings with what we've got.  I have to admit they've made it harder this time round... we're too slow to just run from our problems now.

On the other hand it is OUR hobby... so if we don't like it we can change it. If you're not playing competitive tournaments no one is going to be offended by a custom codex if its balanced (like say... an upgrade that gives broadsides the lance special rule? And my god damn multitrackers on vehicles back!).

Scalphunta

I don't think that there is much to worry about. Our CODEX made it important for other armies to run tanks again. In Tourneys it forces people to run balanced list. If someone does spam AV13, there wont be anything else but that when we are done. TAU strategy must be relearned and applied. We have the collective ability to obliterate whole squads. Don't worry, they WILL fear us!
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InsaneTD

We can accurately deepstirke now if we take pathfinders (Recon Drone has a homing beacon), the only downside is they have to be upclose and personal. It's also avaible on Stealths which is a bit better but is still 100 points to get it. Though that is cheaper and we can give one a fusion as well. I wish stealths had gotten cheaper.

Carrelio

Quote from: Scalphunta on April 08, 2013, 01:45:34 AM
I don't think that there is much to worry about. Our CODEX made it important for other armies to run tanks again. In Tourneys it forces people to run balanced list. If someone does spam AV13, there wont be anything else but that when we are done. TAU strategy must be relearned and applied. We have the collective ability to obliterate whole squads. Don't worry, they WILL fear us!

I'm confused as to why that is reassuring... it's fine to say they will fear it... but what's making them afraid? I tried out an all hammerhead list in 5th (tried to go just a little too mechanized), and the imperial guard player actually laughed out loud that I expected to clear his tanks with 3 BS4 S10 shots and 12 BS4 twin-linked S7 shots, and 8 BS4 meltas, a turn and a handful of S5 shots (I think the list was something like: 2000 points - 3 hammerheads, 6 helios, 6 deathrains, 3 piranhas, 2 fire warrior teams in devilfish). Needless to say, it wasn't enough. And by turn 5 half his tanks were still sitting there pummeling my very diminished battleline.
We need solutions, not optimism.

Quote from: Tybalt Defet on April 08, 2013, 02:03:58 AM
We can accurately deepstirke now if we take pathfinders (Recon Drone has a homing beacon), the only downside is they have to be upclose and personal. It's also avaible on Stealths which is a bit better but is still 100 points to get it. Though that is cheaper and we can give one a fusion as well. I wish stealths had gotten cheaper.

Like you said, the recon drone has to be there in order to use its homing beacon, which suffers the same problem as getting the battlesuits there in the first place.  Stealth suits are better... but they need to get in place too.  Reserve manipulation still appears to be lacking (no more 2+ to bring in a unit).

Stealth suits may not have gotten cheaper, but what they have got more expensive, so in relative terms they are more valuable.  The burst cannon is more expensive now. And they come with a free shield generator on every model... the shield generator is also more expensive. Ta da! Almost worth it!

InsaneTD

I wouldn't call stealth and shroud a shield, especially when you're that close but you are right.

Carrelio

It's an automatic 4+ save in everything but combat. And if you're in combat then you might as well just get over with it and let the power weapons wipe out your suits rather than dragging the conflict on into your shooting phase.  And 18" really isn't too bad for range; combined with J-S-J its a decently formidable distance for all but the fastest assault troops.

Arguleon-veq

Are people joking saying that their railguns should get armourbane? Tau have as many options against this kind of thing as most armies do.

You also have to consider that the riptide and hammerhead are pretty mobile and the only tank with AV14 on the side is a Land Raider who will be closing with you anyway so your fusion blasters will be easier to get into range. Russ' dont have that on the sides and so you can just get around the flanks.

Besides, you still have a S10 AP1 gun on a very durable tank at good BS. The Riptide has S9 Ordnance which is as good as S10 thanks to rolling 2D6 and picking the highest to pen.

If it comes to it, thanks to his jetpack, the riptide can kick an AV14 tank in combat.

For AV13 the same applies, get around the sides for imperial tanks [or just riptide/hammerhead/broadside/skyray them]. For Barges you can put out enough S8 with broadsides and skyrays to get a pen to reduce its AV. Plus if you do get a pen a heavy rail rifle has a really good shot at killing it thanks to AP1 and open topped.
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The Man They Call Jayne

We also have the item Ongars Gauntlet (I think its called). That gives a single unit huge CC ability againt all vehicles.
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InsaneTD

Seems signature gear doesn't take up suit hard points either.  A commander with shield, fnp, the fist and iridium armour and helios weapons would be a nasty combo. Shame how much he'd cost.

Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: KCKitsune on April 08, 2013, 01:01:21 AM
Maybe GW will see that and give us armor bane for our railguns.
I've said this in 2 other threads, I'll say it again here. S10 AP1 weapons do not need a boost!! I don't care whether it's Armour Bane, Tank Hunter, Lance, whatever, it is not needed on the single most powerful weapon in the game. And no, Rail Rifles don't need Armour Bane either. (either version)

Now, to the issue at hand. I don't play Tau, and frankly I don't plan to, however that doesn't mean that I can't give advice.

The first thing I'll say is that if you're struggling to pack a Hammerhead with Railgun into your list, don't panic and assume that you've lost. As soon as you do that, you have lost. Instead try to deploy your anti-tank units, Broadsides, Piranha etc where they can get down the flanks of the enemy and hit that all important side armour. If your opponent turns to face the main threats your Firewarriors now have side armour. It's not much, but most vehicles can be glanced by Firewarriors, Throw in Pathfinders with Rail Rifles or Suits with Missiles and you should have a decent chance of doing damage.

Secondly, you have the option for Disruption Pods. I know I hated these things last edition, but they seem to have been made sensible this edition so while they may irritate me, it's not through being overpowered, it'll be more through my opponent refusing to fail a save. :P These should be standard gear on any Tau vehicles I think. Hammerheads, Piranhas, wherever you can get them, take them and keep moving. They increase the odds of your Hammerhead/Piranha getting that all-important extra shot away.

Thirdly, as Jayne has pointed out, you now have access to an AP2 Ion Cannon. Admittedly the strength may leave a bit to be desired without Overcharging, but with Markerlights you should be able to make the shots count by boosting BS and/or removing the target's cover.

Quote from: Carrelio on April 08, 2013, 01:21:08 AM
On the other hand it is OUR hobby... so if we don't like it we can change it. If you're not playing competitive tournaments no one is going to be offended by a custom codex if its balanced (like say... an upgrade that gives broadsides the lance special rule?.
Lance upgrade for Broadsides? Balanced? Please, please, please, please tell me that's a joke.
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