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Author Topic: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?  (Read 14624 times)

Offline Arguleon-veq

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2013, 08:20:40 PM »
Ive been thinking about it and I actually believe Dark Eldar are one of the better builds for dealing with Tau.

I think the only really scary Tau army are when they have at least 2 missile broadside units, these are the big threats, fire warriors are nice but squishy. Riptides durable but actually have a poor damage output.

So beating tau comes down to beating broadsides.

With Dark Eldar you have the perfect tools. Thanks to nightshields you should always get the alpha strike against broadsides. If you take your average venom-spam list; 6+ venoms, 2+ ravagers. The venoms simply cruise into range, strip the broadsides bare of drones and your dark lances then take them down by instant killing them and bypassing their saves.

I think your going to see a lot more venoms when the new Wraithknight hits the table for eldar too, for Dark Eldar it will just be like killing 6 marines which isnt a problem at all where as most armies will be dominated by them.
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Offline Arkitek

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2013, 08:53:31 PM »
Wouldn't something like a Venom just get totally trashed by Fire Warriors?
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Offline Carrelio

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2013, 10:50:16 PM »
A venom is getting trashed by tactical marines, it's not like Tau are anything special there.

I have played against Dark Eldar a lot with my new Tau (they are the army I play against most often actually), and quite contrary to the original poster's experience I find them quite a challenge.  Yes the Tau could blow them out of the water... but we're never going to get the chance to because Dark Eldar are just so much more maneuverable.

In deployment and board setup the Dark Eldar player seeks to put as much total LOS blocking terrain on the field as possible, while the Tau player should counter by trying to open up the largest kill-zones for himself possible.

Then Dark Eldar players should cover camp and use their night-fields to stay out of range of Tau's 30"-36" kill zones while still getting to return fire at full effectiveness, never fully exposing one's self to attack, and only even breaking line of site breaking cover when the total net gain of the maneuver would be advantageous over the Tau.

Destroy markerlights early to prevent having cover stripped (very easy to do against pathfinders, much harder to do against marker drones). Usually through use of an early turn alpha-strike that earns you first blood as well as completely disrupting the Tau battleplan (by removing their ability to hit the broadside of a landraider).

Use total LOS blocking terrain to launch your assaults.  Over-watch is done after the charge is declared but before the unit moves, meaning a unit behind a wall cannot be targeted for shooting, but is more than capable of charging.  This is especially potent given the abilities of the beast masters and razorwing flocks (providing a 24" potential CC killing bubble around their position).

Offline Tom

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2013, 11:29:04 PM »
Use total LOS blocking terrain to launch your assaults.  Over-watch is done after the charge is declared but before the unit moves, meaning a unit behind a wall cannot be targeted for shooting, but is more than capable of charging. 
I think the rest of your points are good but you can't do this. A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot see (BRB p.20).

Offline Carrelio

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2013, 11:32:23 PM »
Well, that is good to know for future on my part, though I suppose the way around this is of course to have a single model peaking out who can see a single enemy model... at worst lose him to a single snap-shot and then charge with the rest.

Offline Unusual Suspect

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2013, 06:56:02 AM »
Would it be gauche to mention there is a large forum thread on Advanced Tau Tactica that discusses this very issue from the Tau perspective?
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Offline Arguleon-veq

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2013, 05:39:48 PM »
From what im seeing they are essentially just advising you to castle and shoot down their dangerous stuff? thats pretty obvious but its not something you should actually be able to do thanks to the effective range of venoms and ravagers. I wouldnt worry so much about their close combat units because you will kill those with overwatch with good deployment anyway.

The obvious problems are mobile ravagers and venoms. Rail Broadsides are actually pretty handy against them as their higher range allows them to engage DE from the start of the game. Hammerheads/Skyrays are also great and super durable against anything the DE can throw at them, your troops are going to have a rough time no matter what as if the DE player plays right you should never get to shoot his skimmers with things like fire warriors or kroot.

Devilfish can help you engage although the fish themselves wont get to shoot at the targets but fire warriors jumping out of them will have a range of 42'' which is enough to be a threat to DE.

If you want to rely on your tanks you should just go for a defense line and go to ground behind it with your troops untill the venoms are out of the picture.
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Offline BigToof

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2013, 11:02:24 PM »
Wow, this is really turning into a great discussion on both sides.
Now that I think about it, maybe my DE game wasn't that bad, it just felt weird being outgunned from the beginning (something I'm used to versus say... IG, but Tau used to be quality over quantity and all...).
And just... odd from the standpoint of being really feeling in danger from turn 1 and having to play really sneaky and use my mobility a lot more than I'm used to.
I guess nobody outguns the Tau...

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Offline The Man They Call Jayne

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2013, 02:14:34 AM »
IG still do. Tau just have a different application of that firepower.
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Offline Chicop76

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2013, 02:28:24 AM »
IG still do. Tau just have a different application of that firepower.

Played ig and it was what on what. The main differance is my whole army is a serious threat vs heavy weapons and tanks as threats. Flashlights are simply out ranged and strength 5 ap 5 hurts a lot more. Not to mention you totally negate cover.

That being said guard have more volume vs more accurate and cover denial. It turns in to one side saving and the other one can't.

 

Offline crisis_vyper

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2013, 03:59:29 PM »
Never thought of going all Haemonculus, but it is an interesting option...

I also want to see what the new Eldar book has to offer, as if I can get some backup, that might help out a lot.

Anyone have any early ideas for Eldar/Dark Eldar synergy?

Best,
-BT

Been a while since I am here, and it seems that you are also still around Bigtoof.

Personally, I find that the Dark Eldar -Tau matchup is one of who can blow away the other person's advantage first. Both have the tools needed for it.

I am personally enjoying the idea of a Farseer on a jetbike with the Mantle of the Laughing god and the Spirit Stone special wargear. With that you essentially killl two birds with one stone, reducing the stupid expensive warp charge of two down to one, and also allowing the Farseer to have a constant +3 rerollable cover save. Sure you will lose IC, but if you are playing them as allies, it is not as big of a deal as the footprint of the Farseer is small enough.

In addition, the use of guide which is now improved to 24" is amazing for ravagers. For some reason people are always saying that you can mix and match powers from both the codex and the rulebook, but I am not seeing it so I will hold back from saying that you could potentially take both guide and prescience as powers.  War Walkers with Battle Focus is nasty, as it essentially means that they have a jump-shoot-jump and the idea that 24 bs4 scatter lasers is monstrously good on these guys. That 5+ invul is cute, but I will not rely on it much. I am still kind of uncertain about including the Crimson Hunter, for although the BS5 weapons and Vector Dancer is amazing, but I am a little paranoid about it not having any defensive upgrade whatsoever. But I am considering it due to the fact that I could free up one of my Dark Eldar heavy support slots for more ravagers.


As for Dark Eldar-Eldar Synergy, I seriously am surprised that no one is talking about this idea; take Illic Nightspear along with a huge squad of beastmasters and infiltrate them using Illic's special infiltrate rule to bring them as close as possible to the enemy, ignoring the minimum distance you have to stay away from the enemy. The stupid thing about infiltrate is that in the rulebook, it says that as long as there is at least one model with this rule in a squad they have infiltrate. Then if you could possible do so, try to keep the Baron close by enough so that he could attach himself to the unit while Illic detaches himself from the unit so that the unit will not be slowed down by Illic's infantry walking speed and gain the Baron's phantasm grenade launchers. I personally feel that this could be a very effective anti-Tau element.

If one were to play a Footdar list with the Dark Eldar-Eldar elements, you can pull quite a number of shenanigans especially when your main detachment is Eldar. That battle focus is the key for an effective list, and Dark Eldar support in the form of close combat elements complements the list well. Only problem with this list is the flying Heldrakes, but I believe that could be covered with a number of things in the Eldar list and Dark Eldar list.






Offline Chicop76

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2013, 04:34:18 PM »
Never thought of going all Haemonculus, but it is an interesting option...

I also want to see what the new Eldar book has to offer, as if I can get some backup, that might help out a lot.

Anyone have any early ideas for Eldar/Dark Eldar synergy?

Best,
-BT

Been a while since I am here, and it seems that you are also still around Bigtoof.

Personally, I find that the Dark Eldar -Tau matchup is one of who can blow away the other person's advantage first. Both have the tools needed for it.

I am personally enjoying the idea of a Farseer on a jetbike with the Mantle of the Laughing god and the Spirit Stone special wargear. With that you essentially killl two birds with one stone, reducing the stupid expensive warp charge of two down to one, and also allowing the Farseer to have a constant +3 rerollable cover save. Sure you will lose IC, but if you are playing them as allies, it is not as big of a deal as the footprint of the Farseer is small enough.

In addition, the use of guide which is now improved to 24" is amazing for ravagers. For some reason people are always saying that you can mix and match powers from both the codex and the rulebook, but I am not seeing it so I will hold back from saying that you could potentially take both guide and prescience as powers.  War Walkers with Battle Focus is nasty, as it essentially means that they have a jump-shoot-jump and the idea that 24 bs4 scatter lasers is monstrously good on these guys. That 5+ invul is cute, but I will not rely on it much. I am still kind of uncertain about including the Crimson Hunter, for although the BS5 weapons and Vector Dancer is amazing, but I am a little paranoid about it not having any defensive upgrade whatsoever. But I am considering it due to the fact that I could free up one of my Dark Eldar heavy support slots for more ravagers.


As for Dark Eldar-Eldar Synergy, I seriously am surprised that no one is talking about this idea; take Illic Nightspear along with a huge squad of beastmasters and infiltrate them using Illic's special infiltrate rule to bring them as close as possible to the enemy, ignoring the minimum distance you have to stay away from the enemy. The stupid thing about infiltrate is that in the rulebook, it says that as long as there is at least one model with this rule in a squad they have infiltrate. Then if you could possible do so, try to keep the Baron close by enough so that he could attach himself to the unit while Illic detaches himself from the unit so that the unit will not be slowed down by Illic's infantry walking speed and gain the Baron's phantasm grenade launchers. I personally feel that this could be a very effective anti-Tau element.

If one were to play a Footdar list with the Dark Eldar-Eldar elements, you can pull quite a number of shenanigans especially when your main detachment is Eldar. That battle focus is the key for an effective list, and Dark Eldar support in the form of close combat elements complements the list well. Only problem with this list is the flying Heldrakes, but I believe that could be covered with a number of things in the Eldar list and Dark Eldar list.
I mentioned doing it with str 4 ap 1 flamers that on a 6 cause instant death.

That being said if you use your beast that way the only way you can assault is if you go second since you can't assault if you go first.

 

Offline crisis_vyper

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2013, 11:39:05 PM »
Never thought of going all Haemonculus, but it is an interesting option...

I also want to see what the new Eldar book has to offer, as if I can get some backup, that might help out a lot.

Anyone have any early ideas for Eldar/Dark Eldar synergy?

Best,
-BT

Been a while since I am here, and it seems that you are also still around Bigtoof.

Personally, I find that the Dark Eldar -Tau matchup is one of who can blow away the other person's advantage first. Both have the tools needed for it.

I am personally enjoying the idea of a Farseer on a jetbike with the Mantle of the Laughing god and the Spirit Stone special wargear. With that you essentially killl two birds with one stone, reducing the stupid expensive warp charge of two down to one, and also allowing the Farseer to have a constant +3 rerollable cover save. Sure you will lose IC, but if you are playing them as allies, it is not as big of a deal as the footprint of the Farseer is small enough.

In addition, the use of guide which is now improved to 24" is amazing for ravagers. For some reason people are always saying that you can mix and match powers from both the codex and the rulebook, but I am not seeing it so I will hold back from saying that you could potentially take both guide and prescience as powers.  War Walkers with Battle Focus is nasty, as it essentially means that they have a jump-shoot-jump and the idea that 24 bs4 scatter lasers is monstrously good on these guys. That 5+ invul is cute, but I will not rely on it much. I am still kind of uncertain about including the Crimson Hunter, for although the BS5 weapons and Vector Dancer is amazing, but I am a little paranoid about it not having any defensive upgrade whatsoever. But I am considering it due to the fact that I could free up one of my Dark Eldar heavy support slots for more ravagers.


As for Dark Eldar-Eldar Synergy, I seriously am surprised that no one is talking about this idea; take Illic Nightspear along with a huge squad of beastmasters and infiltrate them using Illic's special infiltrate rule to bring them as close as possible to the enemy, ignoring the minimum distance you have to stay away from the enemy. The stupid thing about infiltrate is that in the rulebook, it says that as long as there is at least one model with this rule in a squad they have infiltrate. Then if you could possible do so, try to keep the Baron close by enough so that he could attach himself to the unit while Illic detaches himself from the unit so that the unit will not be slowed down by Illic's infantry walking speed and gain the Baron's phantasm grenade launchers. I personally feel that this could be a very effective anti-Tau element.

If one were to play a Footdar list with the Dark Eldar-Eldar elements, you can pull quite a number of shenanigans especially when your main detachment is Eldar. That battle focus is the key for an effective list, and Dark Eldar support in the form of close combat elements complements the list well. Only problem with this list is the flying Heldrakes, but I believe that could be covered with a number of things in the Eldar list and Dark Eldar list.
I mentioned doing it with str 4 ap 1 flamers that on a 6 cause instant death.

That being said if you use your beast that way the only way you can assault is if you go second since you can't assault if you go first.

I did not even say a first turn charge. It is more like giving him a hard choice, where he will be hardpressed to shoot either your transports with infantry with it or kill your monstrously huge squad of Beastmasters. Either way if he ignore one or the other, the other will bite him hard. I rather that I keep my Venoms and Ravagers alive of course, but that will not stop me from using said Beastmasters to be a killing blow and vanguard as needed. In addition the psychological factor of having  5, beastmasters, 15 Khymearas and 4 Razorwings around the 18-24" range is terrifying for a Tau player. Sure he could gun down that unit and sure that unit takes two turns to charge if I went first, but that also means that he have only one turn to kill that unit before that unit gobble up his army. Combined this with a Venom Spam, and you have yourself a recipe of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't". If I go second, then that means that the unit will now be able to charge the Tau lines very quickly if they survived the volley. If not they have already bought time for my transports and other vehicles to do a Beta strike that would work in the long run.

The Daemons/Chaos Marines players are already playing with the concept of a Flesh hound unit with Skulltaker, several Khorne Heralds and a Khorne Lord all on juggernauts to play with the scouting that is conferred to the squad. The core is still the same; bring that unit closer and give the opponent(s) a hard option.

There is also another reason why I proposed this combination.

The reason why I propose this is that it gives the current meta something to think about. Everyone seems to be going infantry heavy, but they also want to play a gunline game as well. These days for some reason the players tend to bunker up, believing that by doing so they could concentrate their firepower and take advantage of their special overwatch nonsense and bubbles to win them games. Inversely they also believe that spreading out is a fool's proposition. As a Tau and Dark Eldar player, and indeed as a fairly proficient gamer in 40k I find this prevalent mindset a very foolish proposition.

My main argument against castling is it gives a Dark Eldar player space in deployment but also space to maneuver. Firstly Dark Eldar mobility is dependent on transports, take those out first turn and there goes my ability to redeploy. What deployment will make it hardest for the Dark Eldar player to protect their transports? A more dispersed one for sure. This doesn't have mean the Tau will leave their  units isolated if they do it right.

This leads me to say that castling works only when you have multiple combined arms fire lanes and also an flank that will not collapse no matte the odds, such as a terrain. For players, it is imperative that they do not think that castling is an end in itself, but a means to an end. It is two very different mindsets of playing only to defend, and playing to take the hits and then counterattacking.

Of course one does not split up the troops foolishly but they must also remember that they also need to mix the two elements of attrition and also maneuver into their gameplay to win. If you are going to hug one objective securely but leave the other 2-4 objectives unmolested, then you have literally just lost the game. You need to secure that objective of yours AND make them pay for every other objective that they seek to take.  If the enemy is more maneuverable than you, of course splitting up will be foolish, but you will also have to engage them and try to not let them isolate your units. But once that maneuverability is gone, then of course you are going to push your advantage.

Offline Chicop76

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2013, 01:14:24 AM »
I still think 5 wraithguard with strength 4 ap 1 flamers is scarrier. Honestly at least 3 can wipe out most squad. Dat flamer experance there son. They pop in wipe a squad and than I go omg the flames of death is in me face. You really don't want to assault the wall of death. Which leaves you shoot baby shoot.

I think you get shrouding too so a +3 cover save due to area terrain baby.

 

Offline crisis_vyper

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Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2013, 01:29:26 AM »
I still think 5 wraithguard with strength 4 ap 1 flamers is scarrier. Honestly at least 3 can wipe out most squad. Dat flamer experance there son. They pop in wipe a squad and than I go omg the flames of death is in me face. You really don't want to assault the wall of death. Which leaves you shoot baby shoot.

I think you get shrouding too so a +3 cover save due to area terrain baby.

I think you are missing my point. I was thinking of a large beast unit that have a threat range of 13-24" with rerollable fleet that functions as an aggressive deterrent, while the wraithguards function in a different  manner altogether.

 

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