Legion of the Damned - Ruined?

[Narric]

This is essentially me bringing over a discussion from IGMB. Without my own copy of C:SM, I can't really weigh in my opinion on the matteer, as I don't want to rely singularly on Lexicanium.

Sorry for the blocky quotes. the plain copy/paaste formating looked horrible

Now I may be a bit late in reading up on this since the Legion of the Damned book has been out for a while now, but I've just read the entire Lexicanum article about them and I am now disappointed.
It appears that the background to the mysterious chapter has been evolved, so much so now that it seems the chapter are indeed the lost Fire Hawkes chapter, and that they are infected with a warp contagion?
There is no longer any mention of them being wreathed in flame, simply just normal marines who suffer from decay and death.....am I the only one who is disheartened by this? It is still said that they simply appear and disappear at the right time, but no mention of HOW they do this. And yet, the rest of the new lore states that they are pretty much still physical individuals (two coffins containing dead LotD marines were found)
This sucks.....thoughts and opinions?
I much preferred it when they were a mysterious chapter, wreathed in flame who we didn't know much about.

It does suck. I liked the idea that the LoTD were the Emperor's equivalent of minor demons.

I too was disappointed when I read this, general common sense is when something is popular because of its mystery; you don't go and explain all the mystery away...
but then I found this experience similar to reading the intro to Warhammer 40k (found at the very front of the 40k rulebook) its awesome until you read the last few words which were obviously added later:
"whatever happens you won't be missed".
no: you will. no one gives a f***, even if you were famous and filmed it. it should read:
"You are a mere pawn of a pawn of a pawn, you are nothing - your achievements are insignificant, all that matters is that i eat your soul when you die - now hurry up and die your worthless piece of meat."
I honestly believe that would sell more books.
40k is about evil - it follows british literature tradition of having NO good guys, everyone is doomed from the outset and can only fail to make things better, there actions only serve to speed their demise.
This simple basis for all fluff has been the core of 40 for decades.
We all knew the legion were tragically afflicted in some way, that was because their chapter name has the word 'damned' in it.
Don't mess with the fluff.
grrrrr

So what do you guys think?

[Chris]

I don't have my Codex with me, Its upstairs, I'm downstairs and I'm lazy... Neither have a read it recently, But I'm pretty sure it still maintains that they are wreathed in fire...

If I remember, I'll check it out tomorrow and report my findings back.

[Rarity Declis]

Well, don't forget that all fluff is canon, and not canon, as said by Games Workshop. If you think the book has ruined the Legion of the Damned, then remember it's nothing more than an Inquisitorial cover-up report trying to take an unknowable, uncontrollable threat and present it to the wider Imperium as nothing more than rogue Marines.

The same way to handle conflicting Codex information about who is the most awesome. Because otherwise, all the Codexes would be about how the Dark Eldar won again. 

[Chris]

I definately forgot to read up on them as I said I would....

Anyway, in terms of game play, the LoTD sound like they're going to be a very nice little unit in the new codex... Their 3+ armour save will also be invulnerable and ALL their weapons will ignore cover...

What's that Eldar rangers, you have 2+ cover? DENIED!

I think I'll need to pick up a unit of those just for such situations.

[Lord Sotek]

The idea of "daemons of the emprah" has been around in fan theory for a while, and probably there's some sect of the Inquisition that has similar suspicious, but they'd be an outlier. Clearly, if we wish it to be so, then the Legion of the Damned are just as much Imperial daemons as ever, and this stuff about a "Warp contation" is a partial truth cooked up by an Inquisitor from a rival sect that condemns the idea and wants to spread its own propaganda. ;P

This is the beauty of 40k 'canon.'

[Begel Dverl]

Even before the 5th Edition fluff came out for LotD, or even the (imo) stupid BL novel about them, the LotD have always been like that.

They were lost in the Warp sometime after the Badab War and they all started dying to a mysterious Warp Contagion.

The only cure of which was fighting physically.

So, that's what they did. The surviving members of the LotD pretty much go around, staving off their infection through fighting. The only reason anyone knows is because they left behind a relic and a little note that pretty much told the entire story.

They are not the Space Marines who spontaneously caught fire. No one knows what really happened to them... except the Inquisition.

[KCKitsune]

Well, don't forget that all fluff is canon, and not canon, as said by Games Workshop. If you think the book has ruined the Legion of the Damned, then remember it's nothing more than an Inquisitorial cover-up report trying to take an unknowable, uncontrollable threat and present it to the wider Imperium as nothing more than rogue Marines.

The same way to handle conflicting Codex information about who is the most awesome. Because otherwise, all the Codexes would be about how the Dark Eldar won again. 

Or how the Tau and the 'Nids don't have a FTL drive.  We're expected to think that the Nids and Tau just go from planet to planet in normal space and slower than light and the 'Nids really are a galaxy wide threat and the Tau are expanding everywhere.  I just say screw that and carry on.

[Rarity Declis]

Well, don't forget that all fluff is canon, and not canon, as said by Games Workshop. If you think the book has ruined the Legion of the Damned, then remember it's nothing more than an Inquisitorial cover-up report trying to take an unknowable, uncontrollable threat and present it to the wider Imperium as nothing more than rogue Marines.

The same way to handle conflicting Codex information about who is the most awesome. Because otherwise, all the Codexes would be about how the Dark Eldar won again. 

Or how the Tau and the 'Nids don't have a FTL drive.  We're expected to think that the Nids and Tau just go from planet to planet in normal space and slower than light and the 'Nids really are a galaxy wide threat and the Tau are expanding everywhere.  I just say screw that and carry on.

Well, the Tyranids use a special Hive Ship psychic powers to manipulate the gravity of nearby star systems and effectively slingshot themselves faster than light.

The Tau basically use a kinda Warp drive, where they kinda jump out of reality, but not quite into the Warp, but swim between the two. It's not as reliable nor as long as a Warp jump by the other races, but it serves them well enough to move about. It also explains why the Tau are only found in their little corner.

[Railgun Convention]

It'd be more accurate to compare Tau FTL drives to skipping stones across the surface of a lake, rather than taking a submarine through it. They sort of bounce off the Warp, exiting realspace long enough to make sizeable leaps, but not long enough to cross any significant distance in a galaxy.

They observed the warp at the conclusion of the Medusa campaign, but were so turned off they decided to leave well enough alone and stick to their puddle jumpers.

[KCKitsune]

It'd be more accurate to compare Tau FTL drives to skipping stones across the surface of a lake, rather than taking a submarine through it. They sort of bounce off the Warp, exiting realspace long enough to make sizeable leaps, but not long enough to cross any significant distance in a galaxy.

They observed the warp at the conclusion of the Medusa campaign, but were so turned off they decided to leave well enough alone and stick to their puddle jumpers.

Except their "puddle jumpers" were about 1/4 to 1/3 the speed of Imperial drives without the negative side effects.

Their newer ships are slightly faster, but you know what... in exchange of not suffering eternal damnation/getting your soul eaten/really bad things, I would trade out a GREAT deal of speed.  I kinda like arriving alive, with my soul, and not tortured for eons... but that's just me I suppose.

[Charistoph]

Except their "puddle jumpers" were about 1/4 to 1/3 the speed of Imperial drives without the negative side effects.

Their newer ships are slightly faster, but you know what... in exchange of not suffering eternal damnation/getting your soul eaten/really bad things, I would trade out a GREAT deal of speed.  I kinda like arriving alive, with my soul, and not tortured for eons... but that's just me I suppose.

Note that the speed is relative.  This speed of Imperial drives is perceived by the crew.  It's not unheard of for a ship to enter the Warp and then emerge in a different century, sometimes even BEFORE they entered.

With the Tau drive, it's always consistent and they always know WHEN they will arrive.

[Narric]

Except their "puddle jumpers" were about 1/4 to 1/3 the speed of Imperial drives without the negative side effects.

Their newer ships are slightly faster, but you know what... in exchange of not suffering eternal damnation/getting your soul eaten/really bad things, I would trade out a GREAT deal of speed.  I kinda like arriving alive, with my soul, and not tortured for eons... but that's just me I suppose.

Note that the speed is relative.  This speed of Imperial drives is perceived by the crew.  It's not unheard of for a ship to enter the Warp and then emerge in a different century, sometimes even BEFORE they entered.

With the Tau drive, it's always consistent and they always know WHEN they will arrive.

I was going to as if Tau Demiwarp Drives had the effect of "Time Travel"

Isn't this a bit off topic?

[KCKitsune]

Isn't this a bit off topic?

Not really.  GW seems to have a serious bug up its ass with regards to changing out fluff just to make the "flavor of the month" even more awesome sauce.  The LotD got changed to make them not as cool.

[Waaaghpower]

Isn't this a bit off topic?

Not really.  GW seems to have a serious bug up its ass with regards to changing out fluff just to make the "flavor of the month" even more awesome sauce.  The LotD got changed to make them not as cool.

This. In the new Marines book, apparently the Swarmlord only won because Marneus Calgar was an inch away from death after Killin a horde of warrior primes.

[Begel Dverl]

Well, lookie here at this nice little impression that Marines couldn't get any worse than they are now...

Isn't this a bit off topic?

Not really.  GW seems to have a serious bug up its ass with regards to changing out fluff just to make the "flavor of the month" even more awesome sauce.  The LotD got changed to make them not as cool.

This. In the new Marines book, apparently the Swarmlord only won because Marneus Calgar was an inch away from death after Killin a horde of warrior primes.

Aaaaaaaand it's gone.

Are you serious? This is almost as bad as The Battle for Orar's Sepulchre....