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Walker or MC, where to draw the line? (XV107 Split Thread)

Started by Mabbz, September 18, 2013, 02:07:38 PM

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Mabbz

I'm going to say something that Games Workshop clearly disagrees with. It's a machine with a pilot, and the machine is too big to truly be considered armour. Therefore it should be a walker. The same (in my mind at least) is true for the dreadknight or any other mecha more than three times the size of its pilot. Monstrous creature rules should be reserved for living things and stuff like wraithlords, where it is essentially one giant living entity.

The Man They Call Jayne

That would make Crisis Suits walkers as well. Which was the original plan for them, but there was no real way to balance the armour so that they weren't too flimsy or too tough.

Something like the Riptide would be AV 13 13 10/11, at which point you are making your Tanks pointless. MCs work because they allow things like this to have a nice beefy toughness and still be non vehicles.
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Mabbz

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 18, 2013, 04:01:10 PM
That would make Crisis Suits walkers as well. Which was the original plan for them, but there was no real way to balance the armour so that they weren't too flimsy or too tough.
Crisis suits are only about the twice the size of their pilots, so they're fine as is.

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 18, 2013, 04:01:10 PM
Something like the Riptide would be AV 13 13 10/11, at which point you are making your Tanks pointless. MCs work because they allow things like this to have a nice beefy toughness and still be non vehicles.
I would have said AV 12/12/11, which would be plenty with it's invulnerable save. Depending on price I don't see that making tanks obsolete.

The Man They Call Jayne

Crisis Suits are said to be 12 feet tall. Thats twice the height (give or take) of a Fire Warrior and they are at least twice as wide/deep. That makes them 4 times the size. And the new Broadsides are even bigger than that.

Also consider that Tanks cannot use things like Jump Pack like the Wraithknight, or the Teleport Shunt thing on the Dreadknight. They are much slower over all. And they get reduced weapons ability when they do move.
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Mabbz

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 18, 2013, 09:42:52 PM
Crisis Suits are said to be 12 feet tall. Thats twice the height (give or take) of a Fire Warrior and they are at least twice as wide/deep. That makes them 4 times the size. And the new Broadsides are even bigger than that.
Sorry, I was thinking height when I said twice the size.


Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 18, 2013, 09:42:52 PM
Also consider that Tanks cannot use things like Jump Pack like the Wraithknight, or the Teleport Shunt thing on the Dreadknight. They are much slower over all. And they get reduced weapons ability when they do move.
I don't see why not. Every other unit type gets wargear that alters standard movement rules, so why not give the same to a walker?

Actually re-reading your comment you were thinking regular tanks not walkers, weren't you? It is strange that Tanks are now considered slow, despite being able to move 18" per turn (at the cost of shooting). To be honest I think that is due to one of the big problems with GWs approach of having armies continually improve. Armies are getting faster, but the board is staying the same size. Frankly I think tanks should get to fire more and better weapons to make up for the lack of mobility.

In any case, I don't see any of what I suggested making tanks pointless, or at least no more pointless than they already are.

The Man They Call Jayne

The point of a Tank (really) is to have a stable mobile gun platform. You don't get that anymore. Having things like the Riptide as an MC works because it keeps it the same style of unit. Crisis suits have T values, Riptides are big Crisis suits. It makes sense that they have higher T values.

It's tricky to explain what I am trying to say really. The mechanic for Walkers is very different from MCs and I don't think would work as well in those situations.
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Narric

I feel I should point out the Librarian Dreadnought from Blood Angels, which has/had access to a power that made it Jump infantry (or added flying? not sure if its been Errata'd). Does anybody remember what happened when that was first introduced?

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 18, 2013, 10:40:26 PM
The point of a Tank (really) is to have a stable mobile gun platform. You don't get that anymore. Having things like the Riptide as an MC works because it keeps it the same style of unit. Crisis suits have T values, Riptides are big Crisis suits. It makes sense that they have higher T values.

It's tricky to explain what I am trying to say really. The mechanic for Walkers is very different from MCs and I don't think would work as well in those situations.
I think I understand what you're saying, and like you, I don't think it is easy to explain.

The Man They Call Jayne

That was a Psychic power, not a permanent feature though.
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Narric

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 18, 2013, 11:02:25 PM
That was a Psychic power, not a permanent feature though.
Granted, but Psychic powers can be used every turn, even with the Warp Charges.

The Man They Call Jayne

True, but it could fail. And it is a single unit out of however many their are.
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Mabbz

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 18, 2013, 10:40:26 PM
The point of a Tank (really) is to have a stable mobile gun platform. You don't get that anymore. Having things like the Riptide as an MC works because it keeps it the same style of unit. Crisis suits have T values, Riptides are big Crisis suits. It makes sense that they have higher T values.

It's tricky to explain what I am trying to say really. The mechanic for Walkers is very different from MCs and I don't think would work as well in those situations.
I think I see what you're saying too. You're trying to say that when scaling models up, they should keep a similar unit type? Because if so then I disagree. Riptides aren't Crisis suits, and shouldn't have similar rules just because they look similar.

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 18, 2013, 11:21:54 PM
True, but it could fail. And it is a single unit out of however many their are.
Still precedent. I don't recall there being any real problem with the rules for dreadnought, and sticking a jetpack on a walker would be a simpler ruleset, and no more broken than sticking that same jetpack on a monstrous creature.

This should probably be it's own topic, really. We aren't discussing the XV107, we're discussing the differences between MCs and Walkers.