Heavy Burst Cannon vs Ion Accelerator

[The Man They Call Jayne]

I cannot, for the life of me, find a good reason to take the HBC over the Accelerator. Assuming you have no supporting units (because that messes with your needed points costs to make it viable), the IA is always better.

8 shots at a 50% hit rate means 4 hits. So now what we have is a REALLY accurate Assault Cannon without Rending, or we can risk a Novacharge to get 12 shots and that Rending, meaning 6 hits BUT a potential 12 Gets Hot! rolls. Not to mention the inherent risk of activating the Nova Reactor to get to that point.

On the other hand, we have 3 S7 AP2 shots at 50%, lets be generous and call it 2 hits. That is still a pretty effective punch against Heavy Infantry, Light Vehicles and most MCs. Now, without Nova Charging, you can get a Large Blast at S8 AP2 that only risks a single Gets Hot roll that your 2+ save should shrug off 84% of the time, giving you many more hits against Infantry with an average of 4" scatter 2/3rds of the time. WITH Nova Charging you can make that S9 with ORDNANCE! Giving you a better shot than even a Basilisk! ranted, you still run the risk of a Nova Overload, but in most situations, you don't NEED the Nova Reactor to get the good results out of this weapon.

So what is the benefit of the Heavy Burst Cannon, because I don't see one.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Significantly better at Anti-Air, and arguably better against Tanks due to Rending. It's also a tonne better for mopping up Hordes or less than MEQ units.

With the Earth-Caste Array and Velocity Tracker, it really comes into its own.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

The Earth Caste Array though is only a one off item from an allied codex. It isn't availiable to boost every HBC into usefullness. As a standard weapon, it doesn't really stack up. The Large Blast of the Accelerator seems to be more effective against big hordes.

[CoffeeGrunt]

You'd only realistically be looking at fielding two Riptides, IMO.

It's far better at Anti-Air than the Heldrake, and is superior to the Blast because the Blast is unlikely to get more than 7-8 models under it. Markerlit, the HBCTide can get much more.

Different tools, different jobs. Don't bin your saws because you want to wire a plug.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

But as I said, NOT including extra units, like ones that would give you marker lights. I am simply looking at the HBC as a weapon in it's own right. The Anti-Flyer thing, I confess I hadn't really considered because I rarely face flyers anymore. But I might still argue that the extra range on the Accelerator give it a handy advantage, and the +1S might offset the fewer shots.

[CoffeeGrunt]

+1S doesn't offset 3-4x the shots.

Also, we play Tau, a Codex built on teamwork. You always consider it as a single part of a greater machine.

The HBC has the ability to Penetrate Land Raiders relatively reliably if you need it to. It's a very multi-functional weapon.

[Unusual Suspect]

I'm mostly with CoffeeGrunt on this one.

Approaching an army where synergy is supposed to be the name of the game with the assumption that you won't have synergy does not appropriately examine the army in question.  If I am distinguishing between a pickaxe and a jackhammer, but assume there isn't any electricity available, I'm not really going to come to worthwhile conclusions about their relative strengths when electricity IS available.  Remember, while both IA and HBC have access to support, they won't necessarily benefit equally from it, in the same way a worker with a pickaxe is not benefiting the same way a worker with a Jackhammer will.

Frankly, a majority of the fliers I see used in my local meta seem to be AV12 across most facings, so the extra effectiveness of potential penetrating hits that +1 S allows, combined with the extra range and the not-insignificant boost when rolling on the damage table for any penetrating hit, at least puts the IA into the running.  That changes, of course, once the HBC is using a Nova Charge, where the IA is incapable of keeping up in terms of effectiveness.

(side note:  While I'd agree that a Nova-ing HBC is marginally better at popping Land Raiders than its IA equivalent, neither are particularly GOOD at it.  S'what fusion blasters are for...  )

It should also be noted that, despite seeing the potential of the HBC, I tend to find the IA more attractive anyway.  This may change once I get more experience with the Riptide under my belt.



Edit:  I also just noticed that your initial comparison rounded up the IA to 2 hits (that's the equivalent of 1 free ML token every round, not a particularly fair comparison when you're assuming no support), and downplays the devastating impact a Gets Hot! roll has on an overcharged IA.  An HBC that rolls 3 Gets Hot! rolls makes a few armor saves, and misses what he would have missed anyway (The rest of those shots could hit, and every one of those hits could be rending).  An IA that rolls even 1 Gets Hot! roll doesn't fire AT ALL.

If I had my druthers, I'd add an overcharged profile to the HBC that fills the same roll the IA overcharged shot does in comparison to its regular shot - give it Rending and Gets Hot, but leave it at its current firing rate.  That would give us the same choices IA allows of safe, less safe, and least safe firing modes.  But if wishes were fishes, I'd be eating sushi right now.

[BigToof]

From being on the receiving end, an HBC Riptide w/TL-SMS with a Buffmander is really quite nasty for melting light vehicles/fliers (if you buy velocity trackers)  and hordes.
If you have Eldar friends, it even gets quite nasty as a Flier interceptor, as you'll be shooting out 8-12 S6 shots twin-linked with rending, which is actually pretty nasty in chopping up even Helldrakes (especially if they rend).  Granted it might not knock them out of the sky easily, but it'll give you a good chance of knocking out their flamer.
Hmm... I'll have to make a rep of that methinks.

Best,
-BT

[KCKitsune]

I think that if you need to deal with Land Raiders that you first use the riptide to blow the snot out of the supporting units (Dev squads/Centurions/etc) and then go kick the damn thing with a Smash.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Smash is handy, but desperate. Land Raiders carry dangerous cargo, and it'll likely be hitting you next turn after you wreck the thing.

[Arguleon-veq]

I would never ever take a HBC on a Riptide.

Ive got to be honest, when i'm at a tournament and I see a Riptide with one on, I think 'yes, this game just got a little easier'. I think the IA is just better all round and that AP2 is pretty important at the minute.

As for anti air, I think Riptides should be packing Fusion Blasters too and that's your best when trying to down those tough flyers like Vendettas and Helldrakes. All the other weedier flyers the HBC is better at dealing with but really most of the Tau army is pretty good at dealing with weedy flyers like that even when they don't have Skyfire.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I think discounting a very good all-rounder gun is a bit silly. Ion Accelerators are no good against hordes or single, tough models, which is something the HBC actually excels at in my experience. It can fill any gap you need it to very effectively.

[Arguleon-veq]

The large blast on it is as good at dealing with them as the HBC and its much better at dealing with single tough models as they tend to have a good armour save. The HBC is nice if it was getting its 12 shots every turn but theres not often you get the luxury of getting to use the reactor for that when its trying to stay alive from enemy guns or rushing around trying to contest objectives.

It does look far, far cooler on the model though!.

[CoffeeGrunt]

You'll struggle to fit 12 models under a Blast Template, tbh. 7-8 average.

You're also underestimating the Rending. With ECPA and 2 Markerlights, all 12 of those shots are very likely to hit, meaning you'll average 2 Ap2 Wounds as well as the rest. The Rending is also very handy for AV firepower, something the Ion Acc feels somewhat lacking in.

[Unusual Suspect]

The large blast on it is as good at dealing with them as the HBC and its much better at dealing with single tough models as they tend to have a good armour save. The HBC is nice if it was getting its 12 shots every turn but theres not often you get the luxury of getting to use the reactor for that when its trying to stay alive from enemy guns or rushing around trying to contest objectives.

It does look far, far cooler on the model though!.

The fewer models in the target unit and the further they are spaced, the less effective the large blast is by comparison.  It can outperform the HBC in packed conditions, though those conditions are, as CoffeeGrunt mentions, very rare.

Often when I look at the HBC, I just can't imagine relying on a 2/3 chance every turn I want to be firing something worth the 200+ points I tend to spend on Riptides.  Which is why I generally imagine my own HBC (I do plan on building one eventually) as having the ECPA, as they allow reliable access to (more accurate) Nova HBC shots.

The issue with this comparison is that relying on the Nova for HBC performance that meets my expectations means I have to decide between that and a boosted invuln save, or exceptional jump distance, etc. that are also available.  That's a choice that only occurs if I need serious Anti Heavy Armor if I have the IA, which (combined with the ECPA - I really like that SS) means boosted mobility or durability and still often-optimal firepower.

In most cases, the IA has my preferences just in its ability to do things other aspects of our army have issue handling.  I admire the versatility the HBC provides, I just don't do as well with Jack of All Trades, Master of None sorts of units.  I like to specialize units...


@CoffeeGrunt:

With enough support and average rolls, an HBC should tear into a Monstrous Creature's wounds faster than an IA with similar support.  Against Armor armor 12, you're getting an average of 2 penetrations, at armor 13 you might get a glace instead of a pen, and at armor 14, you'll probably get one or the other, and rarely both or neither.  The IA is riskier in anti-tank in a quality vs quantity basis - it has a greater chance of doing nothing, but it also has better potential for vehicle damage and explosions.

Kinda flies in the face of my reliability argument, but I tend to run Riptides with fusion performing anti-tank duties and with power-armored targets in mind.