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Alternate Force Org Suggestions

Started by Narric, March 14, 2014, 05:03:13 PM

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Narric

Pinching this discussion meat from DakkaDakka to see what people think here.

The original OP goes as such:
Quote from: BogalubovI have recently spent time decrying the rise of the death stars in 40k and the general lack of an even playing field between the codices. I don't think I am alone in my dislike of the new un-killable units and a desire for wider range of competitive builds. However, it is easy to complain about something and it's a lot harder to offer suggestions how to improve things.
So how can we bring balance to the force? Some have suggested that we ban certain units. This is not universally embraced as it forces the TOs to have to look at every codex and make a decision on the power level of a unit. That becomes untenable when the releases have been coming out in such a rapid-fire way. The criteria for determining if a unit is over powered are also hard to pin down.

I think a more comprehensive structural change would be better as it would be simpler to remember and would not require constant updating.
With that in mind, it's important to decide what the factors that cause imbalance are before taking an action to address them.

Here are the factors that in my mind bring imbalance:

1. The combinations of USRs from multiple HQs that were previously impossible.
2. Psychic buffing of a unit from multiple psykers with multiple powers.
3. Having units that are miles ahead of anything from other codices and then spamming them to emphasize that difference in power.
4. FOC manipulation through allies or other means that also accomplish #3.
5. Dedicated transports that allow the spam of difficult to kill units outside the FOC.

So all of these are basically ways to manipulate the FOC and disrupt the power level that it was built to preserve. The USRs and psychic powers do this by being force multipliers that might take units beyond their designed power level.

My suggestion is as follows.

1. No FOC slot other than troops can be more than 25% of your force.
2. Allied units are counted toward the 25% in the FOC slot they belong in. So Inquisition Coteaz would be counted toward your HQ limit, Black Legion helturkey allied with CSM is in fast attack and so on.
3. The unit that is transported by a dedicated transport has to cost as much or more than the transport.

So the aim is to force people to take a greater variety of units and prevent spam of uber efficient things. It might not be the perfect solution as it would ding codices that rely on a small number of units to remain competitive. However, I do think that these suggestions would force people to bring more diverse forces that would have a harder time relying on USRs, psychic powers and spam.

I welcome suggestions of how to improve this proposal.

Some ideas seem to work whilst others don't. For some armies, resticting a unit to only take a Dedicated Transport if the unit costs more than the Transport means no Troop Transports whatsoever.

I prefer the simpler idea of making an army having to include 25%+ of their points in Troops, with any Non-troop section not allowed to go over 25% of the total pts. Allies are not a seperate Force, being included in the Primary armies minimums and maximum allowances.





Another alternate Force Org was to make it tiered. Leave it as 1-2 HQ per detachment, make Troops 2+ no max, but for Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support make it so you must take at least of each before you may take a second (you must take one Elite, Fast Attack and Heavy Support choice before you can take a second Elite choice.).




I have heard of the Swiss Pts system. Haven't read much on it, so its on my to-read list :P




What do you guys think of these suggestions?

Charistoph

I think Percentages are the wrong way to go, to be honest.

Progressive could work, but I also like the Detachment system, to be honest.

One thought I'd like is this (this is under the assumption that each player would have their own mission to work with):
1 Warlord Slot - generally required, even Kill Team has this now, sort of.
0-1 Lord of War with the purchase of two Primary Detachments
All Elite, FA, and HS unit choices may only be selected more than twice a Detachment when four Troop Choices are purchased for that Same Detachment.
The number of Auxiliary units are based on the number of Troops.

From there, FOCs are separated into desired roles:
The Generalist FOC:
PrimaryAllied
0-2 HQ
2-6 Troops
0-* Auxiliary Units

1 HQ
1-2 Troops
0-* Auxiliary units
1 small Fortification
* Auxiliary Units are chosen from the Allied Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support choices.

The Aggressor FOC:
This FOC would lend weight to having Purge and Relic, while not having Scouring or Big Guns as an option.
PrimaryAllied
0-3 HQ
2-6 Troops
0-*
1HQ
1-2 Troops
0-* Auxiliary
No Fortifications
*Auxiliary units are chosen from the Allied Elites and Heavy Support choices

The Scout FOC: 
This FOC would replace Purge with Relic and Big Guns with Scouring for mission selection.
PrimaryAllied
0-2 HQ
2-6 Troops
0-* Auxiliary
1 HQ
1-2 Troops
0-* Auxiliary
No Fortifications
* Auxiliary units are chosen from the Allied FA and Elite Choices

The Defender FOC:
This FOC would replace Scouring with Big Guns and Relic with Crusade.
PrimaryAllied
0-2 HQ
2-8 Troops
0-* Auxiliary
1 HQ
1-2 Troops
0-* Auxiliary Units
1 Fortification, any size
* Axuiliary Units are chose from the Allied Elite and HS choices.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

The Man They Call Jayne

It has issues. Especially when you consider how devestating 2000 points of Eldar Guardians on Jebikes would be. They don't NEED anything else and I reckon 2k of then, with some Bike Seers thrown in, maybe some Warlocks, would eat just about anything you put in front of them.

or 2k of nothing but IG troops. An IG platoon is an Army in it's own right.
Jaynes Awesome Card Counter: +5

Secondspheres Crash Card Counter +4



Narric

One thing that concerns me with that system is you would have so many objective markers on the board, that it would boil down to Annihilation for every game with non-symetrical army restrictions.....

I think I understand the concept, but your explanation for the "Auxiliary" units isn't very clear as how you work it out. And if I assume what you mean is you can take 1 Elite, FA and HS for each troop, with all the FOCs allowing for upto 6 due to troops, you could see lists that are even more brutal than under the current system.
However my interpritation isn't 100%, as I said I don't fully understand how you explained it ^_^;;

Another thing that comes to mind is that an "Aggressor" list would essentially allow "Play to Win at all Costs" players to field Deathstar builds easier, whilst more laid back gamers would just stick to the "General" FOC and would be utterly wiped by the Aggressor players.




One suggestion that comes to mind is making Troops uncapped, with 3 minimum, HQ as 1-2 always, and Non-troop slots tiered.
Just a thought.

Charistoph

Quote from: Narric on March 14, 2014, 11:14:02 PM
One thing that concerns me with that system is you would have so many objective markers on the board, that it would boil down to Annihilation for every game with non-symetrical army restrictions.....

I think I understand the concept, but your explanation for the "Auxiliary" units isn't very clear as how you work it out. And if I assume what you mean is you can take 1 Elite, FA and HS for each troop, with all the FOCs allowing for upto 6 due to troops, you could see lists that are even more brutal than under the current system.
However my interpritation isn't 100%, as I said I don't fully understand how you explained it ^_^;;

Another thing that comes to mind is that an "Aggressor" list would essentially allow "Play to Win at all Costs" players to field Deathstar builds easier, whilst more laid back gamers would just stick to the "General" FOC and would be utterly wiped by the Aggressor players.

It's more That FA, HS, OR Elites for Auxiliary.  I suppose it could work either way.  But, yeah, you can still build that way now, and it still works, depending on the army.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Narric

Ah I see, that makes more sense. The hard part would be writing it in a clear way, as as you can see its a tricky idea to put across :P maybe:
"You may take one Auxiliary unit per Troops choice. Auxiliary units are Fast Attack, Elites and Heavy Support choices."

They way I thought you meant could be an allowance for larger games.