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Gunline Tau v Mech Tau at 500pts - which is better?

Started by Stewie Griffin, June 01, 2012, 08:45:08 PM

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Stewie Griffin

Hi all,

As title really - one of the things that keep coming up when I post my army up in various forums is the fact that people dont tend to use the devilfish at 500pts due to it's high cost as a transport, and opt instead for a gunline Tau army instead.

What I want to know is whether or not you think it is better to mechanise Tau at this points level, and give your reasons for your thoughts... I myself have always done better with and thought that mech Tau was better, but obviously if nearly everyone I get to comment on my mech Tau armies at 500pt says "Drop the Fish"( a phrase I'd be unlikely to hear in any other context I might add  :P) there must be some credibility to the idea.

So yeah, lets get some thoughts going - oh, and if you're in the footsloggin' camp rather than the mech camp, can you suggest what is better to get instead of a 'fish at this points level? As there are quite a few contenders, suits, 8 FWs, Pirahnas, broadsides etc :)

Thanks.

Carrelio

While typically mech Tau (or a mechanized hybrid) is a very 'strong' build for Tau, in smaller games Tau gunlines do appear to work a little better.
The reason for this difference (or at least what I believe to be the root of the problem) is that in smaller games the cost effectiveness ratio of expensive units becomes a much greater concern.  When you are playing 2000 points and you are spending 100 points (85-120 points depending on your build I made it 100 for the sake of easy math) on a devilfish, that's only 5% of your army cost, so a devilfish's low offensive abilities (which we are exchanging for the mobility and survivability of a troop choice) are compensated by the other 95% of the army (just for example purpose you've got 1 fish, though I like 3).  Meanwhile in 500 points, that 100 point fish is 20% of your force.  That's a lot (and it's not doing very much with those points)!
For that reason at lower point games, Tau are looking to fit as much high efficiency killpower into a list as they can, even at the cost of a little mobility and security.
It's actually a very different beast.  Sniper drones become a viable option for heavy support since you can't afford many railguns and since plasma tends to be costly they fill a nice roll of mincing the marines that your helios/fireknife/burning eye suits would usually perform.  Meltas on battlesuits and piranhas may even replace railguns from your list all together.  And of course, transports tend to be left behind due to their cost.

Stewie Griffin

Hmm, you know looking at it in that light I can actually see the logic to the gunline argument  :D

As a matter of interest then, at what points level do things like Devilfish begin to become viable? 750? 1000?

I'll do a bit more re-jigging of my army list in the army list section to put some of this in place - Are the kind of units we're looking at in this kind of list (bar FWs) things like Sniper Drones, battlesuits, maybe kroot for screening/flanking duties and so on?

Thanks :)

EDIT: Here's what I came up with - if you like I can post it in the army list section instead:-

HQ

'El - T/L MP, Flamer - 72

Troops

XV8 Suit - T/L MP, Flamer - 47

XV8 Suit - T/L MP, Flamer - 47

XV8 Suit - T/L FBer, Targeting Array - 53

10 FWs - 100

10 FWs - 100

Sniper Drone Team - 80

Total = 499

Thoughts on that? My only concern with this list is that it just seems to be lacking some punch really in my opinion... the suits are there yeah, and should pop tanks pretty easy, but I get the feeling that those FWs will actually take points away from areas where they could be better spent - do you think 2 squads of 6 would be better, possibly with MLs? And if so what should I get in their place for the 80pts left over?

Thanks :)

Carrelio

To be honest, I'm not sure myself where the line is drawn for including a devilfish.  I don't typically play anything smaller than 1000 points, so I just don't have the playtesting to give a proper answer.  At 1000 points and up, I wouldn't leave my firewarriors without one (6 man team inside a devifish with disruption pod and multi-tracker, held in reserve during objective missions for late game objective grabs, or used as a movement blocker and mobile cover in killpoint games).  I think a lot of how low they want to go with the devilfish is personal preference, but I'd be interested in seeing what other people think.  750 is definitely a grey zone for me (never even played a game that size before).

As for the units you are looking at in 500 points you hit the nail on the head.  Battlesuits shine in all point values.  Kroot will outshoot a fire warrior point for point, and benefit from all sorts of extra goodies that the firewarriors don't (such as their fieldcraft rule, or their ability to infiltrate, as well as having a boatload of attacks just incase).  Snper drones provide some markerlights, and can deal a whole lot of damage to marines, who at these point levels likely wont have many troops or transports to soak up the damage.

For your list, I'd recommend 1 squad of fire warriors (since they are manditory) and a squad of kroot 10 carnivors and 5 hounds.  Other than that I think it's looking pretty good.  You've got a suicide sunforge to pop anything AV 13+, deathrains for anything AV12 or lower, flamers for hordes.  You may consider switching you sunforge into the hq position, and making the elite section all deathrains (that way you get the extra BS without needing a target array).  You may also consider lowering your killpoints by grouping the deathrains into a single squad with a couple target locks. So something like...

'El - T/L FB, ??? - ???

- T/L MP, Flamer, team leader, hw- target lock - 57
- T/L MP, Flamer - 47
- T/L MP, Target lock - 42

10 FWs - 100

10 Kroot 5 hounds - 100

Sniper Drone Team - 80

Still needs a bit of work.  I'm in a bit of a rush tonight, so I can't get it exact.  Hope that helped.  I'd definitely ask other people though, since I don't play much at this level.

InsaneTD

Ah, 500 points. I've done some silly things with Tau at 500 points. I had one list with a Shas'O and an Ionhead. Actually come third at a tourny with that list. Would of been first but the dice betrayed me on a reserves game. Though I wouldn't suggest it since the last marine dex.

Personally I've never used a devilfish at this level, so I couldn't say if it's a good idea or not. Best way to find out is to play a couple games. That list does look pretty good.

I've drones to be of use at this level too. They are quick, decent strenght guns. Might be a bit expensive but I find people ignore them so they tend to survive. I also tend to get them behind vehicles and shoot the rear armour. Killed more then a few tanks that way. :P

Stewie Griffin

Quote from: Carrelio on June 03, 2012, 05:23:42 AM
To be honest, I'm not sure myself where the line is drawn for including a devilfish.  I don't typically play anything smaller than 1000 points, so I just don't have the playtesting to give a proper answer.  At 1000 points and up, I wouldn't leave my firewarriors without one (6 man team inside a devifish with disruption pod and multi-tracker, held in reserve during objective missions for late game objective grabs, or used as a movement blocker and mobile cover in killpoint games).  I think a lot of how low they want to go with the devilfish is personal preference, but I'd be interested in seeing what other people think.  750 is definitely a grey zone for me (never even played a game that size before).

As for the units you are looking at in 500 points you hit the nail on the head.  Battlesuits shine in all point values.  Kroot will outshoot a fire warrior point for point, and benefit from all sorts of extra goodies that the firewarriors don't (such as their fieldcraft rule, or their ability to infiltrate, as well as having a boatload of attacks just incase).  Snper drones provide some markerlights, and can deal a whole lot of damage to marines, who at these point levels likely wont have many troops or transports to soak up the damage.

For your list, I'd recommend 1 squad of fire warriors (since they are manditory) and a squad of kroot 10 carnivors and 5 hounds.  Other than that I think it's looking pretty good.  You've got a suicide sunforge to pop anything AV 13+, deathrains for anything AV12 or lower, flamers for hordes.  You may consider switching you sunforge into the hq position, and making the elite section all deathrains (that way you get the extra BS without needing a target array).  You may also consider lowering your killpoints by grouping the deathrains into a single squad with a couple target locks. So something like...

'El - T/L FB, ??? - ???

- T/L MP, Flamer, team leader, hw- target lock - 57
- T/L MP, Flamer - 47
- T/L MP, Target lock - 42

10 FWs - 100

10 Kroot 5 hounds - 100

Sniper Drone Team - 80

Still needs a bit of work.  I'm in a bit of a rush tonight, so I can't get it exact.  Hope that helped.  I'd definitely ask other people though, since I don't play much at this level.

Thanks for that :)

I think I will probably keep the sunforge as a regular joe rather than the commander :) - tactically I can see the advantage of the 'El, but fluff wise I just think it'd be insane for a commander to sacrifice himself for the sake of an enemy tank!

And thanks for the tip on the deathrains ;) - I don't go to GWs very much and mostly do friendly games, and to us it's much more simple really - whoever holds objectives for most turn wins or whoever kills the other team first wins haha :D - Killpoints dont feature much. I'm assuming then that if you destroy 3 single units you'd get more kill points than if you destroyed a single 3 man unit yes?

I'll do a bit of re-jigging, although I think we're probably on the right track, but one last question regarding the kroot, should I infiltrate them or just sit 'em with the rest of the line? I just can't see the logic of infiltrating them even if it's into a forest on the other side of the board, if the rest of the army isn't going to move with them - and besides, the kroot will have a strong part to play as my CC when the enemy does (and it almost always will) reach my line, with the support of the flamer suits of course :)

Oh one last thing, if the enemy doesn't field any AV13-14 tanks, what should I do with the Sunforge suit?

Thanks :)

EDIT:

QuoteAh, 500 points. I've done some silly things with Tau at 500 points. I had one list with a Shas'O and an Ionhead. Actually come third at a tourny with that list. Would of been first but the dice betrayed me on a reserves game. Though I wouldn't suggest it since the last marine dex.

Personally I've never used a devilfish at this level, so I couldn't say if it's a good idea or not. Best way to find out is to play a couple games. That list does look pretty good.

I've drones to be of use at this level too. They are quick, decent strenght guns. Might be a bit expensive but I find people ignore them so they tend to survive. I also tend to get them behind vehicles and shoot the rear armour. Killed more then a few tanks that way.

Thanks for those suggestions :) I'll admit I'm also a fan of our machine friends, there never has been quite a glorious moment with my Tau than as when a drone pair that I detached from a fish pinned a squad of space marines haha... well... not quite actually, there was one occasion when me and a friend decided to give the tank commander of my Devilfish (whom I had modelled with a pulse rifle and dubbed "Trigger") a single shot at the last of his squad of terminators - Trigger hit the terminator, wounded the terminator, and killed the terminator! :D

Carrelio

40K has 2 types of missions, kill points and objectives.  In objectives, whoever holds the most objectives on the turn the game ends wins.  In kill points, you gain a point for every enemy unit you destroy/run off the table until the game ends.  Some tournaments have a victory point system, which means you win points for completing certain things (killing the enemy hq, tabling the opponent, controlling a quarter of the board, etc.). If you want more specific tips on how to play those missions I can give you some tips.

Kroot deployment is very situational.  For instance, in an objective game, infiltrating will keep them safe, and may be your only chance to get something across the board unscathed.  Infiltrating behind enemy lines also forces your opponent to choose between turning back to fight the newly arrived kroot threat, or have them run rampant in their flank, either way is good for you.  Alternatively you can put them in some cover in your deployment zone, and run them just like any other gunline unit.  Just remember that kroot are still weak, just like fire warriors.  They have no armour save and only T3, so in combat you will lose a lot of them.  Try to keep them in cover so that when you are charged you get to attack first.  If you do take the charge, your hounds are I5, so they will likely go first.  When they take wounds, take the wounds on the hounds, so that the carnivores can attack afterwards.  You

Stewie Griffin

Thanks, you've been very helpful! :)

As one last matter of interest, me and my friend were thinking of entering a 40k doubles tourney next year - 500pts a side, two seperate armies, and I believe 1HQ and 1 Troop choice too. While I did have a seperate list, which I can post up here if you like, how viable do you think the above list would be in this setting? We're still undecided on exactly which armies to go for, but I'm leaning either toward Tau or Guard, whilst he's leaning toward Black Templars or Eldar - the basic idea is that I provide the Shooting side while he brings the CC element.

Thanks :)

InsaneTD

Both have pros and cons. Point for point, IG can get more models and more shots. Tau have higher str weapons and suits. It's really gonna depend on how you want to play. I can think of several lists that would be cheesy. Probably a bit fragile though.

I wonder what a hoard guard list would be like at that points level and just how prepared most armies would be for it.

Stewie Griffin

Well... I have done Horde Guard lists before at that points level  :D, and if my memory is correct, I was looking at maybe... 60-80 guys?

However for the tourney thing I probably wouldn't just go full infantry really, I think I made a Death Korps army recently (yet to decide on doing Death Korps or Elysians, as I'm waiting for all my cadians to sell on eBay, which is taking AGES) which was basically a ww1 style army of artillery and an infantry advance :) - very thematic for Death Korps and very visually cool. Dunno how well it'd work at a tourney, but it'd be sure as hell fun to try :) - especially with something like Black Templars at my side... would look like a very grim army to fight against with all those dark colours.

InsaneTD

Visually it would be a very dark army. Would look fairly awesome though.

The real scary thing about those restrictions at that points level, is the fact both guard and tau can get a main battle tank. I wouldn't suggest it though. There are more efficent ways to spend you points at that level. Something to keep in mind when building the army though. Someone is bound to do it.

Carrelio

Doubles tournaments are tricky, especially when it comes to synthesizing the units of two different armies.  You can

Stewie Griffin

Thanks for that :) Me and my friend have been looking at the various different armies, and I think that (personally) both our hearts are more settled on a xenos alliance rather than your bog standard dreary old imperial alliance type thing. And it's either gonna be an all eldar army or a tau-eldar army.

Speaking of which, having a look at the old rules for the 2011 tourney, it might well be that we actually get 750 points a side rather than 500 as I said earlier, so if possible, can we expand the question into what should i take in 750pts worth of tourney tau? :)

The restrictions are 1HQ and 1 Troop choice per team, with the end army having to have at least 1 unit from each section of the FoC (so 1 elite, FA, HS etc)...

Thanks :)

InsaneTD

Interesting set of restrictions. Doesn't really change the way you'd build the army. Just make sure you have a way to deal with AV14. You're bound to see at least a Leman Russ at this points level. Wouldn't surprise me if you see a Landraider.

knightperson

Hmmmm. at 750 each side, I think you're really going to want one full squad of broadsides. You are definitely going to see AV14 at 1500 total points, and I've seen twin Leman Russes at 750!

If you're doing a Tau / Eldar alliance, make sure you understand the rules of how powers cross between armies (or more likely, how they don't). Can Eldar troops use Tau markerlight hits? Can pulse fire reroll to wound against a Doomed monstrous creature? Can Kroot ride in a Wave Serpent? Stuff like that. If his Farseer can Fortune your troops, that would make Kroot in a forest downright formidable. If his units can use markerlights, a barrage of BS 5 Bladestorm would be terrifying! Look for those synergies.

If the army powers only work on the one army, then you still have some opportunities. Tau all suck at close combat, but several Eldar troops excel at it, so have some Eldar bruisers up front protecting the fire warriors from assault, or have a barrage of rapid-fire pulse rifles soften up a tough target before the Howling Banshees or whatever charge in to finish them off. Decide with your partner whether you'd rather have fusion blaster piranhas or Fire Dragons for close-range vehicle killing. Tau don't have a great selection of AP3 weaponry, so pick that up from the Eldar side.

Hopefully, this gives you some things to think about, and let us know how it all comes out!
Cured of what I'm suffering from, but suffering from the cure.