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Author Topic: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread  (Read 5625 times)

Offline Wargamer

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Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« on: July 18, 2015, 02:34:03 PM »
Continuing on from Facebook...


TURN ORDER:

More or less unchanged. Basic order of operations is as follows:

1) Compulsory movement.
2) Voluntary Movement.
3) Magic.
4) Shooting.
5) Combat phase.
6) End Phase.

MORALE:

There are four stages of Morale: Fine, Shaken, Wavering and Shattered. These are based upon the total unit strength remaining in a unit.

All units are Fine by default.
Once a unit has lost 25% of its models it becomes Shaken and suffers a permanent -1 Ld penalty.
Once it has lost 50% it is Wavering and suffers a -2 Ld penalty. In addition, its maximum Rank Bonus is reduced to 2.
Once it has lost 75% it is Shattered and suffers a -3 Ld penalty. In addition, its maximum Rank Bonus is reduced to 1.

In addition, if a Shattered unit retreats for any reason it is immediately destroyed.

Panic Checks:
When a unit's morale stage is reduced, it must take a Panic Check at the end of the phase.

Roll 2D6 and compare the result to the unit's Leadership, including any modifiers for Morale state. If the result is equal or lower than the unit's Leadership the test is passed.

If a Panic Check is failed the unit must flee a distance of D6" plus the unit's Movement value. This move is made directly away from the source of the Panic Check (if the source is unclear or disputed, or the Panic Check was somehow caused by friendly units, the unit flees toward its own board edge).

If the Panic Check was made and failed at the end of a Combat Phase, any opposing unit that is no longer locked in combat may pursue. The pursuing unit moves directly toward the fleeing unit a distance of D6" plus the unit's Movement value.

If the pursuing unit catches the fleeing unit, the fleeing unit suffers one automatic wound for each model in the pursuing unit. No saves of any kind are allowed. If the fleeing unit survives, it immediately rallies and is considered locked in combat, with the pursuing unit having charged.

COMBAT:

Active player decides the order in which combats are resolved.

Units strike in Initiative order. Always Strikes First gives Initiative 10, Always Strikes Last gives Initiative 1. If opposing units are tied, roll a dice to see which unit attacks first. If allied units are tied, controlling player decides order (the "after you, sir!" rule!).

Any model in base contact with the enemy can attack with their full number of attacks. Models in the second rank who are directly behind a model in base contact may make a Supporting Attack. This is resolved in the same way, and at the same time as a normal attack, but a model making a Supporting Attack may only make a single attack, regardless of the number of attacks on their profile.

Casualties are removed from the back of the unit.

After the first unit has resolved their attacks and casualties have been removed, the second unit attacks in the same way. Casualty removal does not affect how many models can fight - as long as the remaining models are in base contact, or in a position to make a Supporting Attack, they get to fight as normal!

Once all units involved have resolved their attacks, each side calculates their Combat Score as follows:

Wounds Inflicted: +1 per wound inflicted.
Banner: +1 if the unit has a Banner.
Battle Standard: +1 if the army's Battle Standard is within 12" of the unit.
Ranks: +1 per complete rank after the first, up to a maximum of +3. *
Mob: +1 if the unit has 30 or more models remaining.
Outnumbering: +1 if the unit outnumbers the enemy.
Charged: +1 if the unit charged this turn.
Flanking: +1 if the unit is attacking the enemy's flank.
Surrounding: +2 if the unit is attacking the enemy's rear.
Fear: -1 if the enemy unit causes Fear.
Terror: -1 if the enemy unit causes Terror.

* If multiple friendly units are involved in the combat, only count the highest rank bonus out of all units. Example: Orc unit A has a Rank Bonus of 2. Orc unit B has a Rank Bonus of 1. Both are fighting a Dwarven unit. Orc B's rank bonus is ignored and only unit A's bonus applies. This might seem unfair... but hey, life isn't fair!

The side with the highest Combat Score is the winner. All units in the losing side must take a Battleshock Test, with a penalty to their Leadership equal to the difference between the two scores.

For each point the unit fails their Battleshock test by they suffer one automatic wound with no saves of any kind allowed.

Charging Into Cover: The charge bonuses (and penalties) do not apply if the target unit is in cover - the charging unit loses too much momentum!

MISCELLANEOUS:

Cavalry: Cavalry count as two models for the purposes of morale and outnumbering. In combat, only the rider may make supporting attacks - NOT the mount! When pursuing, Cavalry inflict a single wound as per infantry.

Monstrous Infantry and Monstrous Cavalry: For the purposes of Morale and combat resolution, these units treat their remaining wounds as "models". For example, a unit of 5 Ogres (3 wounds each) are treated as fifteen Models for the purposes of Morale, outnumbering and so on. When pursuing, Monstrous Infantry and Monstrous Cavalry inflict two automatic wounds on units they catch.

Independent Characters: Independent Characters are subject to the following rules:
  • Independent Characters don't count toward a unit's size for determining its morale.
  • Units containing an Independent Character may use the character's leadership instead of their own (all modifiers, including Morale based ones, still apply)
  • When not part of a unit, Independent Characters are always considered to be "Fine".
Independent Characters gain the following rules:

"Come back, cowards!": If a Shattered unit is destroyed due to Retreating, the Independent Character may take a Leadership test. If passed, the model remains in play (and screams abuse at the wretches who abandoned him!). If failed, the character is removed along with the unit (possibly due to being accidentally stabbed in the back a few dozen times!). You do not have to test to save the character if you do not wish to do so.

Heroic Charge: Independent Characters, and any unit they lead, gain +1 to Combat Resolution on the turn they charge. This is in addition to the normal bonuses for charging. This bonus is NOT negated by cover!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 04:20:22 PM by Wargamer »
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Offline Narric

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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2015, 09:26:42 PM »
Looking forward to seeig more work done on this :3

Will there be any changes to Shooting?

Offline Wargamer

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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2015, 11:21:23 PM »
Don't know yet. I kind of like Fantasy's shooting as it is, and really don't want to reward people for picking firepower over stabbing. I was thinking of grabbing some dice and just rolling handfuls of them to simulate some battles and decide if this proposed morale system is overkill or not. I also have a burning desire to get utterly stupid and do my own Empire list. :P
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Offline Wargamer

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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2015, 11:17:51 AM »
So a little bit of dice rolling combat to see how things go.

Battle the first! 20 Empire Spearmen (FC) vs 5 Empire Knights (FC):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Okay, I really wasn't happy with how those spearmen could keep playing tarpit for quite that long. Battleshock seemed to work though. So this time I'm going to add the Retreating rules I came up with... specifically, these ones:

Morale Checks:
When a unit's morale stage is reduced, it must take a Morale Check at the end of the phase. This test is identical to a Battleshock test, with all the same modifiers applied. It is taken after any applicable Battleshock tests.

Instead of removing models, a unit that fails its Morale Check must flee a distance of D6" plus the unit's Movement value. This move is made directly away from the source of the Morale Check (if the source is unclear or disputed, or the Battleshock was somehow caused by friendly units, the unit flees toward its own board edge).

If the Morale Check was made and failed at the end of a Combat Phase, any opposing unit that is no longer locked in combat may pursue. The pursuing unit moves directly toward the fleeing unit a distance of D6" plus the unit's Movement value.

If the pursuing unit catches the fleeing unit, the fleeing unit suffers one automatic wound for each model in the pursuing unit. No saves of any kind are allowed. If the fleeing unit survives, it immediately rallies and is considered locked in combat, with the pursuing unit having charged.


Okay! Let's try that fight again!

20 Spearmen (FC) vs 5 Knights (FC)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Alrighty! We've had a bit of fun smacking spearmen about! Let's see if we can't find something to turn the tide of this battle against the Knights and give us a more interesting clash...

30 Tilean Pikemen (FC) vs 5 Empire Knights (FC)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm seeing a big problem with huge saving throws in this system now... even when rolling buckets of dice the Knights wouldn't budge!


Alright, let's try something totally different... let's try throwing some Orcs and Dwarfs at each other and see who bounces off whom! And I'm going to clarify the gear here for transparency:

30 Orc Boys (spears, shields, light armour, FC) vs 20 Dwarfs (hand weapon, shield, heavy armour).

I'm also going to clarify the 6th / 7th edition rules for shields apply; an additional +1 save if used with a hand weapon.

Onwards!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Alright, so we're still throwing big tough stuff at each other... but I think that's the area of concern. So let's try throwing similar units around and see who goes pop first!

30 Empire Halberdiers (light armour, halberd, FC) vs 30 Militia (2x hand weapon, FC).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Alrighty! What do you guys think of the dice rolling so far?
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

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Offline Ravager Zero

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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2015, 11:33:31 AM »
Alrighty! What do you guys think of the dice rolling so far?
I maintain that 1+ saves are stupid in any system.

Moving on… I think the commentary was actually better than the rolling in every case you presented. Now, if you put that kind of commentary in your "improved" ruleset (and of course ignored GW, as we mostly do now) then there'd be nothing stopping you taking fantasy by storm.
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Offline Narric

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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2015, 11:53:02 AM »
Are the Knights still 1+ even after modifiers? Have you tried a really big/strong unit vs knights in order to test multi-wound vs high armour?
Also, what about if a named character to DIY-Hero is part of one or both sides?

I agree, the commentary was most entertaining.

Offline Wargamer

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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2015, 12:40:01 PM »
Decided to try some heavier stuff; 3 Ironguts with Champion vs 5 Knights with Full Command.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also going to try 12 Ironguts (FC) vs the 30 Dwarfs from earlier.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Alright, let's try this once more... this time, we're going to add some firepower into the mix! This time, we're going to pit the Ogres against the Dwarfs in a pitched battle - 20 Dwarfs and a cannon(!) will line up against a dozen Ironguts. 24" of ground to cover. Let's see how the game plays out!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Many more tests of shooting vs melee are needed, but I find it interesting how things are playing out so far. Much more test rolling is needed!
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

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Offline Narric

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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2015, 02:46:06 PM »
Perhaps their needs to be two different forms of battleshock? One resulted from Melee, the other from Shooting? Keep this form of battleshock for Melee, whilst the shooting one goes by how many hits the unit took, as a unit that recieves thirty-plus shots of either shot or arrow is going to feel more pressure than a unit then only takes five or ten.
this would make some build large units of Shooting, but they would potential have fewer models in their army overall.

How about:
Take the number of hits the unit recieve from shooting, minus the number of models the unit has (using you wounds rule for multi-wounded models) and plus their number Ld and modifers?


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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2015, 02:36:28 PM »
That would leave units like cavalry quite prone to running off as soon as 1 of them drops though. :-\

Think I've still got a couple of Fantasy rulebooks somewhere so I'll see if I can come up with some ideas over the next couple of days.
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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2015, 04:21:11 PM »
Did some tweaking. Battleshock should hopefully be a little less extreme now it's tied to combat resolution.

Still no idea how to work it with Ranged combat though. :/
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Offline Wargamer

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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2015, 07:52:21 PM »
Also, a few ideas with the Empire list...

Full Plate. It's just a bit excessive. Seriously, there are FAR too many 1+ armour saves in this list! So it's gone from practically everyone. Bye bye!

Knights of the White Wolf - White Wolf Hammers are halberds. Cavalry with a WWH get +2 str on the charge instead of +1.

Reiksguard are folded back into generic knights.

Carroburg Greatswords - a 0-1 upgrade for a single unit who you really, really want to ruin people's day!

Dismounted Knights - fill your Special slots with heavy infantry!

Kislevite Winged Lancers - no barding, but they cause Terror on the charge!

Gryphon Legion - Because your opponent hasn't suffered enough. The fact these guys are 0-1 is the only thing likely to save your teeth.

Teutogen Guard - They're stubborn, they've got White Wolf Hammers, and I was too scared to take the Full Plate away. A 0-1 choice, much to the joy of everyone on the receiving end!

Reiksguard - Stubborn Inner Circle infantry with Full Plate, shield and sword. Nothing holds the line like these guys.

Nuln Armoured Gunners - the best handgunners the Imperial Gunnery School has ever produced. A fine choice for anyone who wants to fire a lot of lead at high accuracy.

Imperial Pike - Be they state troops from the southern provinces who favour very long spears, or Tileans who are almost reliable enough to be considered part of a regular army, Imperial Pike are Rare, but present.

Dwarf Goldseekers - If you really need more solid, reliable, quality infantry that can ACTUALLY hold the line (unlike those Reiksguard, who'll run away as soon as a goblin farts at them) consider paying some Dwarven mercenaries. There's a chance they'll spend the first turn haggling for wages, but that's worth it, right?

Road Wardens - Not sure on these yet, but I like the idea of including them. I just kind of picture them being there entirely by accident and trying to wriggle out of it!

Halflings.
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2015, 05:30:41 PM »
Broader ideas that I want to get down before touching the armies, because it'll have an impact...

9th Edition - the new status quo:

Archaon's dream of conquering the Old World has been thwarted. At a cost of countless thousands of lives, the Chaos invasion has been halted.

Yet all is not well in the Empire. Middenhiem stands, but much of the north is in ruin. Tens of thousands of people are left homeless and starving, exiled from their homes by the rampaging armies of Chaos. Numerous warbands and Beastmen tribes continue to sack the land, defiling and destroying all they find. The Empire is mobilising army after army to crush this threat, but to many the north is now part of the Empire in name only.

The south, though untouched by the Storm of Chaos, cannot rest easy. Emboldened by Grimgor Ironhide's defeat of Archaon, Or and Goblin tribes continue to surge across the World's Edge mountains, attacking the Empire, Dwarfs and Chaos followers alike. More and more land is abandoned in the wake of these attacks. With every victory the green tide grows more daring and more dangerous, and the supply lines between the Empire and the Dwarfs have been severed, with few expeditions making it through.

From across the Old World, the dead begin to stir; the Vampires, emboldened and empowered by the great slaughter in the north are rising from their hiding places to raise new armies and renew their conquests. A new Vampire War looms, and soon the soldiers of the Empire may be forced to fight against those who fell in defense of Middenheim just a few short years before.

In the east, from across the Dark Lands, the Chaos Dwarfs have followed their human and Beastman allies, and once more begin to prey upon the people of the Old World. Their forces lay siege to Dwarven Karaks, and their slavers drag away entire settlements back into the hellish lands from which they came.

Yet not all hope is lost. From the west, the Bretonnians have been summoned, commanded by visions of the Lady to quest against the forces of darkness that would consume the land. From across the ocean, the High Elves of Ulthuan launch expeditions against the Chaos horde. In the south, the armies of Tilea come in search of riches, willing to stand beside the Empire in exchange for gold. From far in the east, driven by a hunger for gold, or just plain hunger, tribes of Ogres are willing to sell their terrible strength to any who will pay them. The Dwarfs, though besieged, remain a powerful ally in this time of trouble; many a great army has been destroyed overnight, having believed these indefatigable warriors were trapped behind their walls.

It is a dark time. A time of ruin and strife. A time of suffering and fear. Yet also a time of heroes; for in the days to come, the fate of all the world will be decided by brave men and bold champions. Will the world fall to darkness? That will be decided in the clashing of swords and the roar of cannon. This is the dawn of a new age.

Whose age it will be, that is for you to decide.
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

Quote from: Liberate the Warhammers
People who have no sense of Sportsmanship have NO PLACE designing any Gaming system

Offline Narric

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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2015, 06:50:23 PM »
That was an excellent read, and would definately get me into playing Fantasy, had I a close-by opponent :P

Offline Wargamer

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Re: Warhammer [Fantasy] 9th Edition random ideas thread
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2015, 09:37:36 PM »
The more I've thought about what I'd like in Fantasy, especially in terms of background, the more my mind drifts toward bad humour. Like the Chaos Dwarfs, and giving them a cultural obsession with big hats as a form of status symbol (leading to the most senior Chaos Dwarfs wearing hats larger than they are, caging Daemons inside them, etc).

I also though it'd be fun to push the Undead a bit more. An idea I had was that there are Dark Omens taking place; Chaos might not have ended the world, but the Dead do not rest quite so easily in their graves now, and men whisper that Nagash may soon walk among the living once more! In response, the Vampires have gone a bit bat-shit crazy; on the one hand, they've got enough fresh corpses to raise entire legions. On the other hand, Nagash really, really, really hates the Vampires for betraying him the last time, and so they're pretty much all certain that the first thing Nagash is going to do is shove his bony hand so far up their collective backside that he can pull their fangs out. As such, the Vampires are all either trying to build the ultimate undead Legion to curb-stomp Nagash, or find magical items to keep him imprisoned, or desperately trying to conquer the world in his name in the hopes that he'll show mercy on them.

Also, I totally want to do a Zombie Legion army - an undead horde built from the fresh kills of the Storm of Chaos!

Initial musings on this subject are as follows:

Across the Old World, tens of thousands of freshly buried bodies have been piled into mass graves. Thousands more lie forgotten, left for the crows where they fell. The Storm of Chaos brought death and destruction on a scale not seen in centuries, and those with knowledge of Necromancy, or the sheer unholy will the bid the dead to rise, have not sat idle. Shambling hordes of the freshly slain rise to serve their unholy masters, staggering forward beside the crudely regimented bodies of soldiers. In death, all are equal; defender and invader alike now march as one, seeking to bring the peace of the grave to this blighted, war-torn world.
Zombie Horde 6 points (per model)
Profile
M
WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
Troop Type
Zombie
4
2
0
3
3
1
1
1
5
Infantry
Rotter
4
2
0
3
3
1
1
2
5
Infantry
       

Unit Size: 10+
Options:
  • May take spears (+2pts/model) or halberds (+2pts/model)
  • May take shields (+2pts/model) and/or light armour (+1pt/model)
  • Promote one Zombie to a Rotter at +10pts.
  • Promote one Zombie to a Standard Bearer at +10pts.
  • Promote one Zombie to a Musician at +5pts.
Equipment:
  • Hand weapon
Special Rules:
  • Undead
  • Always Strikes Last
  • Join Us In Damnation

Not all battles are fought hand to hand. From the Goblin archers to the Dwarven handgunners, the burial grounds of the Old World are now filled with former marksmen, and some still carry the weapons they did in life. Though a rotting corpse is hardly skilled in the use of ranged weapons, a few carefully chosen spells, and the animation of the least ripe corpses, can produce an undead mob who can unleash terrible volleys of arrows and lead shot. And on exceptionally rare occasions, they can be willed to do so in the direction of the enemy!
Zombie Shooters 8 points (per model)
Profile
M
WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
Troop Type
Zombie
4
2
0
3
3
1
1
1
5
Infantry
Rotter
4
2
0
3
3
1
1
2
5
Infantry
       

Unit Size: 10+
Options:
  • May replace bows with crossbows (+1pt/model) or handguns (free)
  • Promote one Zombie to a Rotter at +10pts.
  • Promote one Zombie to a Standard Bearer at +10pts.
  • Promote one Zombie to a Musician at +5pts.
Equipment:
  • Hand weapon
  • Bow
Special Rules:
  • Undead
  • Always Strikes Last
  • Join Us In Damnation
  • Dead shot
  • Tainted Powder (models with handguns only)

ZOMBIE HORDE SPECIAL RULES:

Join Us In Damnation: Whenever a model with this rule kills an Infantry or Cavalry model, roll a D6. On a roll of 6, the slain model is reanimated as a zombie! Place a new zombie model into the unit. This new zombie has the same stats and equipment as the unit it joined. Models killed in this way can increase the unit size above its starting value. If the Zombie Horde player doesn't have any spare zombies, then no extra zombie is generated. If the unit has lost any command models, these will be resurrected before any normal zombies.

Characters with this rule do not generate new zombies unless they are leading a unit that also has this rule - you can't spontaneously form a unit of zombies around a lone character (as cool as that would be!).

Dead Shot: Zombies are not good shots. To say that they are less accurate than a dead Goblin would be unfair, but only because many of them are dead Goblins! It takes a special kind of unholy magic to get a Zombie to even hold a ranged weapon properly, let alone fire it at the enemy, but even Necromancy has limits!

Models with the Dead Shot special rule always require a roll of 6 to hit with any ranged attack they make. No modifiers ever apply to this roll.

Tainted Powder: Gunpowder is explosive, and mistreating it can have disastrous consequences. While some Zombie Hordes may have access to relatively fresh gunpowder, the odds of a zombie treating it properly are slim to none. As such, Zombies armed with black powder weapons are often more dangerous to themselves than the enemy!

When a unit with the Tainted Powder special rule fires their ranged weapons, any model that rolls a 1 to hit resolves its attack on the unit itself! These shots cannot be allocated to any Characters leading the unit (they've learned to duck when zombies start shooting!).



A few other concepts for the army:

Hellraised - zombies afflicted with an unholy rage that lets them march without a character and fight almost as well as ordinary infantry!

Hulking Bodies - Zombified Monstrous Infantry! These guys are shrouded in clouds of flies and pestilence that make them harder to hit.

Coffin Men - heavily armoured zombies. Maybe with the flies and pestilence above.

Foul Riders - zombie cavalry, with an option for "dread mounts" that are stronger and hit harder.

Undead Swarm - lots of dead rats, cats and other little critters.

Luther Harkon - Oh yes, the Lord of the Vampire Coast will be included! He will lead a unit of zombies armed with brace of pistols. He'll also be delightfully strange.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 10:00:32 PM by Wargamer »
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

Quote from: Liberate the Warhammers
People who have no sense of Sportsmanship have NO PLACE designing any Gaming system