6th (and 3rd, 4th and 5th) Edition Mathhammer: Vehicle Kill Probability.

[BigToof]

Silly question, but what are you seeing in the "No Tank" Ork lists?
I'm one of the not-too-many Ork players out here, as most of my mates are still IG, SM/GK and Crons.

Best,
-BT

[crisis_vyper]

Silly question, but what are you seeing in the "No Tank" Ork lists?
I'm one of the not-too-many Ork players out here, as most of my mates are still IG, SM/GK and Crons.

Best,
-BT

Not to mention that te IG psyker squads can reduce the morale of the Ork nob squads and the likes and just shoot them down enough to make them run away. Manticores and Demolishers are quite the pain for the Nob Bikers now as the Large Blasts can snipe particular models out.

[Arguleon-veq]

Me and a guy from our club are running them [he was second in the UK but I think hes dropped to about 10th in the past few weeks].

They are based around;

3x 15 Lootas
Lots of Nob Bikes.

Then he runs 4 10 strong Shoota units and 10 Grots plus an extra Bike Warboss. Runs him with the other Bike Boss and Nob Bikes in 1 big unit.

I run 3 units of 20 Sluggas with Claw Nobs and just the 1 Bike Warboss.

Both lists have at least 8 Nob Bikers.

Battle Psykers arent as big a threat as its easier to rally now and you still have to kill 3 bikers with all the wound shenanigans they can do. A Demolisher Cannon should only ever hit 3 bikes. You should only take a single wound [after saves] and you put that on the Warboss as it doesnt instant kill him.

[crisis_vyper]

Battle Psykers arent as big a threat as its easier to rally now and you still have to kill 3 bikers with all the wound shenanigans they can do. A Demolisher Cannon should only ever hit 3 bikes. You should only take a single wound [after saves] and you put that on the Warboss as it doesnt instant kill him.

All they need to do now is just make the Nob squad to just not touch them. They do not have to make them run off the table, they just need to make them run away. Even if they regrouped, that is one turn of not being able to do any sort of movement on your part. And putting the wound on the warboss would be nice if you managed to make a 'Look out, Sir' to let the warboss take the hit. And depending on the guy's build, you may be able to see like 3 psyker squads backed up by several Demolishers/Manticores to make themselves very effective in throwing lots of high strength templates which will also affect how the other footsloggers work.

Not to say that this is what you will see, but it is possible to see the orks finding a hard time approaching several objectives that are hidden behind that wall of nonsense. It is just a way people may handle the resurgence of the Orkoid problem.

[Arguleon-veq]

The biggest problem for Nob Bikes right now is Paladins as the force weapons ignore FnP go first and instant kill the Nobs. Plus the Nobs shooting on the way in hardly scratches them, against other force weapon units that shooting will leave a dent but Paladins shrug it off.

[crisis_vyper]

The biggest problem for Nob Bikes right now is Paladins as the force weapons ignore FnP go first and instant kill the Nobs. Plus the Nobs shooting on the way in hardly scratches them, against other force weapon units that shooting will leave a dent but Paladins shrug it off.

True. But will they be in a Stormraven? That is the interesting thing about the current situation right now with the flyers rampaging around the place. Paladins in a Stormraven would interestingly be a very big pain right now.

[BigToof]

Y'all are making a great argument for allied Farseers

Best,
-BT

[crisis_vyper]

Y'all are making a great argument for allied Farseers

Best,
-BT

Um....wrong thread?

[InsaneTD]

Y'all are making a great argument for allied Farseers

Best,
-BT

Um....wrong thread?

Fortune(or what ever it is) on a tank to allow re-roll of cover save? Is that even legal?

[Matt1785]

NO!!  Trust me, Paladins in a Stormraven is a HORRIBLE idea... because I'd assume you would just zoom around, and when those Lootas fire a million shots at your Stormraven and blow it up and your Paladins take S10 hits with no saves of any kind allowed.. you'll wish you didn't try and pull that.  In my mind, Paladins are best in a Land Raider now since it is somewhat more reliable now-a-days.. especially against Orks.

[BigToof]

Re: Allied Farseers

I meant that since your argument vs Nob Bikers was "Bring Da GK Cheez," the best counter would be a Farseer to make all that nonsense that much harder.  I know I bring one to even things up JUST in case of such shenanigans.

Best,
-BT

[crisis_vyper]

Re: Allied Farseers

I meant that since your argument vs Nob Bikers was "Bring Da GK Cheez," the best counter would be a Farseer to make all that nonsense that much harder.  I know I bring one to even things up JUST in case of such shenanigans.

Best,
-BT

Ah, ok. That makes more sense to me now.

Oddly enough, I felt that Dark Eldar vehicles are now even tougher than the old days. Thanks to the shenanigans of cover, nightfighting and hull points it is much harder to kill a Dark Eldar vehicle as compared to an Imperial one.

[Arguleon-veq]

So I said I would get back about the game between my two mates and the tournament.

The game between my mates, 5th ed style GK with Necron air support vs 6th ed style Paladin GK [which was rubbish in 5th]. The 5th ed GK won, which would suggest that tanks arent as bad as we have been thinking BUT it won because the Necron Flyers killed the lone scoring Paladins and the Night Scythes were dropping Warriors off on key objectives and won the air battle against two Storm Ravens. The tanks were killed pretty easily with the exception of a Lord in Barge thanks to AV13, 5+ Save and essentially 5 hull points due to the lord.

The guy using the 5th ed style GK [razor/dread spam] then took them to a tournament. The first decent sized one of 6th in the UK. 38 Players total. He tells me that only about 10 armies used tanks at all. The rest had none whatsoever. Which is pretty shocking. Most that did, finished low with the exception of my mate who got 4th and another player who was running 2xManticore, 2xChimeras then Vendettas with Deathwing allies so not exactly tank heavy but it did finish second.

First was Nob Bikers with Dakkajet and Grot support, third was Paladins. Paladins featured a lot around the top as did Loganwing Wolves and people with Deathwing allies.

He was telling me that his tanks did ok, but mainly due to the fact that when they died they usually just died to loss of hull points so he could just hide his 3man aco squads behind them so they could safely hold objectives. His main game winners were the Necron flyers, dropping Warriors off wherever they needed to be thanks to that teleport device.

So pretty inconclusive, a lot of people must also be thinking that tanks are worse with so few bringing them and besides 1 army, no real tank heavy armies did well. But that army had its tanks do fine which shows they can still work when used by a good player, they just arent the force that they were.

[crisis_vyper]

So pretty inconclusive, a lot of people must also be thinking that tanks are worse with so few bringing them and besides 1 army, no real tank heavy armies did well. But that army had its tanks do fine which shows they can still work when used by a good player, they just arent the force that they were.

I think I have said this over and over again for those on the internet and also in real life; Mech is not dead, just toned down. So far the outright fear of vehicles being nerfed perpetuated ar first glance of the rules only served to make everyone cried "Chicken Little" and dump away any sort of vehicle for an infantry meta, which in my opinion is rather foolish as the overgeneralization of vehicles by one initial thought only made their gameplay weaker (unless your army can work with such a mechanic like Orks, IG, Nids or has enough terminator armour to shrug the shots off). Not to say that they are wrong, but neither are they right either.

Thanks to the overgeneralization of the meta, I am finding myself with an unique advantage as sticking with my balanced Mech Dark Eldar only served to play to my advantage. Now that there are more infantry running around, the Venoms and Razorwings now have more targets to fire upon as compared to 5th and the way cover saves are conferred now and Nightfighting only served to make the Dark Eldar vehicles more survivable. I will admit that flyers do trouble me from time to time, but nothing the Razorwings couldn't handle.

The fear of a Necron Air Force or Vendetta Air Force is mitigated by the reserve mechanic in play where you need a presence on the table by the end of the turn to allow the other things to come in from reserve. Thanks to this rule, it is actually much preferable to have a much more balanced approach to gameplay these days. 3 vendettas or 3-4 Necron Flyers are a much more realistic outlook for a flyer heavy army.

Thanks to the reading of the meta, I managed to land myself 3rd place in the Feast of Blades Qualifier rounds in my FLGS (unfortunately I will not be able to attend the Feast of Blades due to university). First place went to a Paladin-style army and second went to an IG blob with lots of heavy weapons and 3 vendettas.

[Will's on Fire]

I'm not convinced there needs to be as much of a shift as there has been. The main shift I feel, will be towards more multi-shot mid to high strength weapons. Especially things like ork lootas, or autocannons for the guard instead of missiles. Generally, two shots is now better than one as there is less worry about having to make sure to penetrate, as if you have the quantity of shots, you should get enough glances.

I think Venerable dreadnoughts took a bit of a hit, and extra armour on Av13+ seems a bit of a waste to me, but apart fromt hat rhinos aren't that much worse than they were. Cover saves are going to play a much bigger part now for vehicles, you're not going to get away with parking them in front of anything and praying for bad damage table rolls, although that wasn't done much in 5th either!

- Will