The Slow Decline of Grey Knights?

[BigToof]

Hi All,
I noticed this change as I was replying a post earlier, and it hit me...
Where did all the Grey Knights go?

In 5th, they were the dominant force.  If you said Space Marines, you actually meant Grey Knights.
If you said Xenos, you meant that you wanted to lose to Grey Knights.

Now...
It's been an age since I've seen Draigo other than counts as.
I haven't seen a purifier in months.

Is this my local meta or is the Grey Knight turning?

Best,
-BT

[Wargamer]

As I've said earlier, GKs were pretty much banned from our gaming circle. Play me anywhere, and you'd get the same reaction: once I learn what your army is, I'll walk away from the table.

That could be an impact outside of the tournament scene; if people won't play your army, you can't play that army.

[Deraj]

At my lgs I haven't seen GK or blood angels for that matter since 6th came. However at every tourny I've been to in the last 4 months... they're still going strong.

[Arguleon-veq]

Yeah they are still going strong. Not quite as dominant as they were but still top 2. At the start of this edition they were very popular with people taking Draigo and Paladins to go with some allies.

If you think about it good solid scoring on foot that put out a lot of firepower are big this edition and in Strike Squads they have that when you add in 2 Psycannons and Psybolt ammo. Their Termies also do the same thing and Purifiers and Paladins can with certain special characters. Then you can take cheap inquisitors for psychic support.

So I just think the army has changed. Going away from Psyriflemen and Psybacks and towards scoring on foot.

[Chicop76]

They get the same reaction as my Daemons do now. No one wants to play against it, so why bother playing it.

[crisis_vyper]

Hi All,
I noticed this change as I was replying a post earlier, and it hit me...
Where did all the Grey Knights go?

There is a guy in the LGS that I frequent that still brings in a pure GK force, from time to time in the local tourney. Nonetheless, my honest opinion would be that a true Grey Knights army are non-existent now. They tend to get mashed up with other armies such as Necrons and IG. There is also the new Chaos Space Marines which I believe sucked quite a number of the 'scrubs' who used to abuse the Grey Knights army. Of course, the new Chaos Space Marine codex is not an entirely overpowered book, just that it has the proper tools to deal with the infantry meta of the initial 6th edition stages. The next few codices will truly determine how the meta will take hold.

Speaking about the meta. I tend to be playing against mostly Imperial Guardsmen these days than any sort of Marine army. It is also fair enough that most Marine armies tend to die under the hailstorm that the Imperial Guard can muster, and the 'strongest' Xenos armies (Necron and Dark Eldar) along with combo armies that make old armies viable killed off the marine players in the store's meta.

Even with allies, most armies with a primarily Marine-component tends to suffer a lot due to the current meta killing off a number of options that Marine armies could get.

As I've said earlier, GKs were pretty much banned from our gaming circle. Play me anywhere, and you'd get the same reaction: once I learn what your army is, I'll walk away from the table.

That could be an impact outside of the tournament scene; if people won't play your army, you can't play that army.

That's rather immature, but this time I will hold my tongue and save both ourselves the debate about this particular attitude. 

[Wargamer]

I don't see why it's a problem. Over the past year (and probably longer, but this year really hammered it home) I realised most of my games ended the same way; with me feeling pissed off. I took my Marine army vs a friend I hadn't played in a long while, and I was immediately reminded why; he dropped ten Sternguard with combi-meltas behind my army, split them into combat squads and killed both my Dreadnoughts. I was pissed off for the rest of the game by that. It wasn't that I'd lost two units without ever being able to use them, but it was the way in which I'd lost them - a cheap, no-skill gimmick that cannot be countered save by utterly screwing myself over with an overly defensive deployment.

Rule 0 of 40K is "both players should have fun." If you ask me for a game and then say "I play Grey Knights", I am no longer having fun. Instead, I am immediately reminded of how much Matt Ward ruined that army's background and how mind-numbingly broken all their rules are. Since I can't picture a single scenario where I would have fun playing against a Grey Knight force, I'm just not going to bother.

Problem is, nobody seems to remember Rule 0 anymore. Nowadays it's all "if it's in the codex it's legal!" That doesn't create an enjoyable gaming environment.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

I must admit, since drop pods became more widespread, I have hated people who use them with a passion. NOTHING in this game should be unstoppable, and they are.  They WILL land where you want them to and the unit inside WILL kill the target, thus removing upwards of 200 points, if not more, in a single action that you can do nothing about. Where is the fun, or skill in that?

I have never played against Grey Knights, and I have only seen them being used twice, both times against Dark Angels and both times the Knights ate everything in front of them alive.

[Naser Al-Istikhara Cyrus]

I actually agree with Wargamer's points. There is no point in playing 40k if you aren't going to have fun. This isn't to say that "Nobody should ever play GK" or that "everyone who plays GK doesn't deserve to play 40k". I think what wargamer is hitting on moreso is the fact that the type of players who use and abuse GK are the types of players who take rule 0 out of the game.

There is one player at our LGS who most people refuse to game against purely because of his attitude; most recently he (a 25 yr old guy) took 10 DA Terminators with Storm Shields in a 600pt game against a 11yr-old rookie...who had no idea or hope of winning.

I think if this thread is going to become one on "the attitude of 40k gamers" then we need to split that off into a different thread though

with regards to the OP, i have noticed some change in the metagame, particularly with armies brought to the table. I've seen far less GK and BA than i have in the past, and an increasing amount of Guard and...Nids...which surprises me to some extent.

[BigToof]

Hmm..
I think I may know what happened to my Grey Knights:
Flamers and Screamers.
We've got a whole bunch of new Daemon players, and Purifiers and Draigowing just disappeared overnight.
I'm not sure if the GK players switched to Daemons, or if it was just that nobody had enough Strike Squads.
But in any case, it may just be my local meta.

Best,
-BT

[knightperson]

The cheeziness of drop pods is not limited to Grey Knights, nor is it a new problem. Other than that, I completely agree with you in the hatred of them! "I am going to start by hitting one of your units with about 14 bolters for each of my squads, plus maybe a special weapon or two, and have over half my army in charge range for next turn, and unless you're willing to go all reserve (which you can't in 6th Edition) there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Oh, unless you play Coteaz or buy a fortification, but see elsewhere for my not-quite-rant about how the newest stuff is the only way to be competitive.

I have always believed in Rule 0, and I would rather lose with a fun list than win with one I don't like. That's why I never ran Bloodcrushers with my Daemons or Scoringfish with my Tau. Unfortunately, not everyone feels that way. People will run boring (to me anyway) lists if they are effective, and in my opinion those aren't fun to play or play against.

[Chicop76]

Hmm..
I think I may know what happened to my Grey Knights:
Flamers and Screamers.
We've got a whole bunch of new Daemon players, and Purifiers and Draigowing just disappeared overnight.
I'm not sure if the GK players switched to Daemons, or if it was just that nobody had enough Strike Squads.
But in any case, it may just be my local meta.

Best,
-BT

I just wanted to say I've been playing Daemons since the 40k Codex came out. The reason why I like them so much is they are random and not boring. If you use Fateweaver he might not even come out into the 4th turn, which has happened to me a few times.

Now that deepstiking is better and you have a beter chance of coming in and like a 33.33% chance t increase the chance of units coming in via deep strike has made Daemons much better. Through in the update and you have a strong force.

The differance however is that it is hard to deep strike accurately unless you take an almost 100 point fortification, or spend points on an expensive icon which the icon bearer have to survive a trn for you even to use it.

In the mean time you have drop pods which almost can't mishap. If my flamers have drop pod rules than they would be broken. I take 3 units for the chance to wipe your squad, because the other 2 squads have a good chance to deviate and get a mishap. When all 3 squads hit tan game ovr man.

Even, so I still have problems against heavy armoured armies, although less than before thanks to Screamers and glance death.

The truly unbalanced unit that Daemons have I would say is screamers. Flamers either work, or they don't. Screamers can deep strike, fly and rake a unit, basically attacking a unit without getting hit back, get a jink save with 24" movement, and in the next turn destroy anything that is not a flyer. When I play them I still think between deep strike and moving within assault range of 36" is pretty deadly, and if you add assault range than that is 38"-48". You can't get away from that, heaven forbid Fateweaver is flying with them.

If I ran 3 full squads of 9 flamers and screamer that's game over. Through in Fateweaver and yu will crush anything out there. I would probably never do that, but it's not expensive and very faesible to do.

I played Grey Knights since they came out, because I liked the army. I like the old codex, better cause I miss my Mystics and re rolling ones to hit on my plasma gunners. I can run more plasma, but at worst bs and less cool options.

[InsaneTD]

Hi All,
I noticed this change as I was replying a post earlier, and it hit me...
Where did all the Grey Knights go?

In 5th, they were the dominant force.  If you said Space Marines, you actually meant Grey Knights.
If you said Xenos, you meant that you wanted to lose to Grey Knights.

Now...
It's been an age since I've seen Draigo other than counts as.
I haven't seen a purifier in months.

Is this my local meta or is the Grey Knight turning?

Best,
-BT

The shininess wore off.

I can't honestly awnser that one, I game so rarely or visit a LGS for that matter.


There's is only one mate I game against when I do play and it's normally a fun game.

[crisis_vyper]

I actually agree with Wargamer's points. There is no point in playing 40k if you aren't going to have fun. This isn't to say that "Nobody should ever play GK" or that "everyone who plays GK doesn't deserve to play 40k". I think what wargamer is hitting on moreso is the fact that the type of players who use and abuse GK are the types of players who take rule 0 out of the game.

There is one player at our LGS who most people refuse to game against purely because of his attitude; most recently he (a 25 yr old guy) took 10 DA Terminators with Storm Shields in a 600pt game against a 11yr-old rookie...who had no idea or hope of winning.

I think if this thread is going to become one on "the attitude of 40k gamers" then we need to split that off into a different thread though

Hence why I decided to hold my opinions. I am in the camp of "I want to have fun, but at the same time I also want to win". And I always love a challenge when I fight with armies that people call 'broken', as I am more of a problem-solver when it comes to games. Unfortunately sometimes that gives me a 'powergamer' brand on my buttcheeks as I do enjoy streamlining my list to something I can use with the most optimum of efficiency and when I consistently managed to cripple half an army that is 3 times more deadlier than mine despite me losing with proper application of scientific methods in fighting my battles, they will say that I am not letting them have their fun. I am not even sure what is worse; to play an army skillfully and be branded a powergamer, or to play with an army that is considered broken and be called a powergamer. I decided to not think of this issue anymore as I do not have the emotional reservoir to do this petty argument anymore. Not to mention that some armies are meant to do things a certain way. For Grey Knights for example, the main idea is basically that they want to hold the center of the table so that their guns will be able to gun down a lot of things. If you deny them that basic battleplan, they tend to crumble very badly. Simple I know, but how you get there is the fun part.

I have more to say about the issue, but what I do know is that sometimes isolating someone just because he is playing a certain style or army is just plain immature unless you know how the army works and understanding the logic behind the framework of the army. Not every army can play like your army, and you need to understand it from the army's point of view as well. The only people that deserves such a treatment are assholes and cheaters. And even then it is the personality of the players, not the army itself. The mindset for playing in Malaysia is very different from that in America, and I am always playing with a Malaysian mindset to begin with. What make sense to me will not make sense to an American player, or for that matter anywhere in the world.


Also I find it that whenever you feel salty in 40k, it is good to take a breather and do something else before coming back in. That always works for me and I find myself loving the game and appreciating it a little more everytime I do so. If you still do not have fun doing it, leave. It is better for your wellbeing that way. That's why I never find myself too attached to any cardgame as I do not like the visuals and I do not truly enjoy it.

with regards to the OP, i have noticed some change in the metagame, particularly with armies brought to the table. I've seen far less GK and BA than i have in the past, and an increasing amount of Guard and...Nids...which surprises me to some extent.

As I said before, Guard is the new Marines. Tyranids I am actually fond of and they deserve the limelight. Of course ever since I am playing my Dark Eldar, I am biased to very uncommon Xenos races.

Hmm..
I think I may know what happened to my Grey Knights:
Flamers and Screamers.
We've got a whole bunch of new Daemon players, and Purifiers and Draigowing just disappeared overnight.
I'm not sure if the GK players switched to Daemons, or if it was just that nobody had enough Strike Squads.
But in any case, it may just be my local meta.

Meh, for me I always find Daemons strong even during the times where they are considered as one of the worst armies to play with. But I do like to think outside the box, which helped me in my success. No one knew how strong a mono-tzeentch army was until I showed them, and thanks to the buff that GW gave my Mono-Tzeentch army, I am glad that I am now glad that if I so choose to go back to my army, it will be dastardly fun for me.

In my meta, it is just Imperial Guardsmen everywhere. Thus, as a result every game is now significantly longer than it is which prevents me from playing more than one game every time I play. I like to play at least two games everytime I go out to have my 40k fix.

[Chicop76]

I actually agree with Wargamer's points. There is no point in playing 40k if you aren't going to have fun. This isn't to say that "Nobody should ever play GK" or that "everyone who plays GK doesn't deserve to play 40k". I think what wargamer is hitting on moreso is the fact that the type of players who use and abuse GK are the types of players who take rule 0 out of the game.

There is one player at our LGS who most people refuse to game against purely because of his attitude; most recently he (a 25 yr old guy) took 10 DA Terminators with Storm Shields in a 600pt game against a 11yr-old rookie...who had no idea or hope of winning.

I think if this thread is going to become one on "the attitude of 40k gamers" then we need to split that off into a different thread though

Hence why I decided to hold my opinions. I am in the camp of "I want to have fun, but at the same time I also want to win". And I always love a challenge when I fight with armies that people call 'broken', as I am more of a problem-solver when it comes to games. Unfortunately sometimes that gives me a 'powergamer' brand on my buttcheeks as I do enjoy streamlining my list to something I can use with the most optimum of efficiency and when I consistently managed to cripple half an army that is 3 times more deadlier than mine despite me losing with proper application of scientific methods in fighting my battles, they will say that I am not letting them have their fun. I am not even sure what is worse; to play an army skillfully and be branded a powergamer, or to play with an army that is considered broken and be called a powergamer. I decided to not think of this issue anymore as I do not have the emotional reservoir to do this petty argument anymore. Not to mention that some armies are meant to do things a certain way. For Grey Knights for example, the main idea is basically that they want to hold the center of the table so that their guns will be able to gun down a lot of things. If you deny them that basic battleplan, they tend to crumble very badly. Simple I know, but how you get there is the fun part.

I have more to say about the issue, but what I do know is that sometimes isolating someone just because he is playing a certain style or army is just plain immature unless you know how the army works and understanding the logic behind the framework of the army. Not every army can play like your army, and you need to understand it from the army's point of view as well. The only people that deserves such a treatment are bassholes and cheaters. And even then it is the personality of the players, not the army itself. The mindset for playing in Malaysia is very different from that in America, and I am always playing with a Malaysian mindset to begin with. What make sense to me will not make sense to an American player, or for that matter anywhere in the world.


Also I find it that whenever you feel salty in 40k, it is good to take a breather and do something else before coming back in. That always works for me and I find myself loving the game and appreciating it a little more everytime I do so. If you still do not have fun doing it, leave. It is better for your wellbeing that way. That's why I never find myself too attached to any cardgame as I do not like the visuals and I do not truly enjoy it.

with regards to the OP, i have noticed some change in the metagame, particularly with armies brought to the table. I've seen far less GK and BA than i have in the past, and an increasing amount of Guard and...Nids...which surprises me to some extent.

As I said before, Guard is the new Marines. Tyranids I am actually fond of and they deserve the limelight. Of course ever since I am playing my Dark Eldar, I am biased to very uncommon Xenos races.

Hmm..
I think I may know what happened to my Grey Knights:
Flamers and Screamers.
We've got a whole bunch of new Daemon players, and Purifiers and Draigowing just disappeared overnight.
I'm not sure if the GK players switched to Daemons, or if it was just that nobody had enough Strike Squads.
But in any case, it may just be my local meta.

Meh, for me I always find Daemons strong even during the times where they are considered as one of the worst armies to play with. But I do like to think outside the box, which helped me in my success. No one knew how strong a mono-tzeentch army was until I showed them, and thanks to the buff that GW gave my Mono-Tzeentch army, I am glad that I am now glad that if I so choose to go back to my army, it will be dastardly fun for me.

In my meta, it is just Imperial Guardsmen everywhere. Thus, as a result every game is now significantly longer than it is which prevents me from playing more than one game every time I play. I like to play at least two games everytime I go out to have my 40k fix.

That's why I liked you and Knightpower. I went in Daemons thinking they was the worst army in the game. I read the codex a few times and realized how good Tzeentch and Khorne was together.

Funny that I play Mono Tzeentch now, but I may go back to my mix forces. Letters still are good and, so are daemonettes. However it is hard to compete with screamers which I have metal ones showing I had them originally. Any way with daemons people couldn't get pass the whole deep strike your whole army thing and seen them as bad. Which other armies attemt to do the same thing, but lack the shooting and durablility to do they same thing and that is why they fail and daemon's don't also thanks to 6th they have to field half their army anyways.

I'm with you with the powergamer tag. Why build an army that is going to lose, and if you do why get upset if you do lose. I like to play certain models, because they look cool, or I want to try them out like Vespids which I field every now and than. If you review all the source material go on army builder and build some builds and look at differant army list posted on sites plus gaming experance you should build a list that can deal with all those threats in mind. If you go heavy anti marine/ tank it's a good chance swarms will eat you alive and the other way around which is why you have to build balance list.

Wbat makes greyknights so bad is they all have force weapons and can field a lot of str 7 assault cannons. The strength 7 assault cannons deal with hordes, marine type armies, and armour due to rending. Also throw in 24" two shot strength 5 bolter weapons you have your basis covered. Although they lack the ability to really rain down on targets outside of 30" isn't really a major weakness since it's a good chance all they have to do is move up and they probably can hit things first turn. Also objectives in the middle of the board will force you to get shot to death. However to compensate for that weakness you can infiltrate a possible 2-6 units in the middle of the board, or outflank with that many, or I think it's a scout move which is still not bad to get 6l closer for a 36" threat range. Also throw in some 18" moving units you got yourself covering the basics.

I for one stopped playing them cause of the comments. Most my greyknight army is metal, so that should tell you I was playing them before they made them better vs everything. In 5th I owned them with my Daemons, but I can see they will be problems thanks to range preffered enemy attcks.

I like Daemons, because it is hard to predict and counter them. Most armies is like one army while daemons is like 4 armies mashed together. Throw in allies you have armies like tau now have certain strengths that they did not had before.

The last I played my Tau I won most of my close combat engagements. Stealthsuits with some drones don't do poorly against a few marines for example.