The Slow Decline of Grey Knights?

[The Man They Call Jayne]

There is nothing wrong with playing to win. That is the objective after all. Bit if you are winning by total crushing defeat every single time, there is no fun. When you have moves that cannot be countered, or units that ALWAYS work and don't cost that much, why bother playing. Just turn up, announce your list and claim victory.

Victory SHOULD be a 50-50 chance if you were playing the averages. It should come down to the skill of the player. Obviously new dexes have an advantage and so tip the scales in your favor. Luck of the Dice is also a big thing. But that is entirely variable. Some game the dice gods use you as a chew toy, some days they rain blessing upon you. Some armies can take a beating from the dice and STILL win. Guard is the main abuser of this nowadays, as they can do just about anything better than anyone else.

Grey Knights seem to follow this aswell as they can take more than their share of bad rolls and simply use special rules to get around it. Being given toys that just don't NEED to exist, like the Dreadkight, or that Plasma Thingy that very specifically screws up almost every weapon the Tau can field.

I know it's a business and they are out to make money, but surely they would make more if they took care of their veteran fan base? Raping fluff and taking away a big part of what makes an army fun isnt helping anyone. I was seriously considering Deamonhunters as my second army before the new dex came out, I ended up going Chaos because of the new GK dex, and because the new Deamon Prince model was awesome, although that sees little use in the new CSM dex unfortunatly.

As for my local meta, the only armies I regularly see are:

Eldar
CSM (Myself and another guy)
Dark Angels
Grey Knights
Vanilla Marines
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Necrons

So definatly Marine heavy. There is a couple of Guard players, but I see them rarely. Interestingly, I have seen 2 new players come into the game and take up the Tau mantle. I do wonder if this is in anticipation of a new codex though, or simply because of the boost they got on the back of 6th edition.

[Chicop76]

There is nothing wrong with playing to win. That is the objective after all. Bit if you are winning by total crushing defeat every single time, there is no fun. When you have moves that cannot be countered, or units that ALWAYS work and don't cost that much, why bother playing. Just turn up, announce your list and claim victory.

Victory SHOULD be a 50-50 chance if you were playing the averages. It should come down to the skill of the player. Obviously new dexes have an advantage and so tip the scales in your favor. Luck of the Dice is also a big thing. But that is entirely variable. Some game the dice gods use you as a chew toy, some days they rain blessing upon you. Some armies can take a beating from the dice and STILL win. Guard is the main abuser of this nowadays, as they can do just about anything better than anyone else.

Grey Knights seem to follow this aswell as they can take more than their share of bad rolls and simply use special rules to get around it. Being given toys that just don't NEED to exist, like the Dreadkight, or that Plasma Thingy that very specifically screws up almost every weapon the Tau can field.

I know it's a business and they are out to make money, but surely they would make more if they took care of their veteran fan base? Raping fluff and taking away a big part of what makes an army fun isnt helping anyone. I was seriously considering Deamonhunters as my second army before the new dex came out, I ended up going Chaos because of the new GK dex, and because the new Deamon Prince model was awesome, although that sees little use in the new CSM dex unfortunatly.

As for my local meta, the only armies I regularly see are:

Eldar
CSM (Myself and another guy)
Dark Angels
Grey Knights
Vanilla Marines
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Necrons

So definatly Marine heavy. There is a couple of Guard players, but I see them rarely. Interestingly, I have seen 2 new players come into the game and take up the Tau mantle. I do wonder if this is in anticipation of a new codex though, or simply because of the boost they got on the back of 6th edition.

That is why before you play agree to what you doing. If you playing a fun just to try something list tell your opponent, so and can he do the same. If you bring a tournament list say, so and ask them to do the same. That alone right there would clear a lot of issues.

However I don't let people win. I hate it when people do it to me. In any game I try to play just above your level. If I lose during the game I get a feel on your play style as well. When we play agin my second encounter win or lose the first game is always much better since I can predict some things you will do, go years of playing chess. Anyway I see losing as a situtation where you can learn and improve. The more you lose the more you learn. Every one losses, however to wi a lot you have to learn from each encounter. I realise bad rolling and a lot of assault cannons can wipe my daemon army. I had it happen a few times. Now I target assault weapons like the plague. It's a learning experance which you have to learn from.

However 40k armies are not exactly balanced. I wish they would balance the armies so their is more skill envolved than luck or you picked te super army. That is why I like chess. If I destroy you in chess especially if I am playing black you don't get all the moaning and groaning like you do in this game. If I lose t this one guy I keep playing him. Eventually I wil start winning and in m9st cases I will always win and he can't beat me as easily as before. That is why if you do all your good moves and strategies you are just helping your opponent eventually he will learn and all your tricks will be used up. It is rare for a good player to get any better by beating worst players. However worst players get better every time they play that good player. Eventually that worst player will learn all the good players tricks and that good player will have a much harder time winning.

[crisis_vyper]

There is nothing wrong with playing to win. That is the objective after all. Bit if you are winning by total crushing defeat every single time, there is no fun. When you have moves that cannot be countered, or units that ALWAYS work and don't cost that much, why bother playing. Just turn up, announce your list and claim victory.

Victory SHOULD be a 50-50 chance if you were playing the averages. It should come down to the skill of the player. Obviously new dexes have an advantage and so tip the scales in your favor. Luck of the Dice is also a big thing. But that is entirely variable. Some game the dice gods use you as a chew toy, some days they rain blessing upon you. Some armies can take a beating from the dice and STILL win. Guard is the main abuser of this nowadays, as they can do just about anything better than anyone else.

So I guess that is what I should do whenever I play against any Marine player if I ever see one now. Whenever I face Marines these days, I just murder them to almost a man. I will not say that I am the best player, but I am extremely experienced with facing Marines and know what they can and can not do. Actually come to think about it, I do get that treatment with my Dark Eldar (which is my only army in the US). These days, I think the only army that truly give me any challenge are IG armies, but that is because they tend to be a hard counter to my armies.

And it is true that wiping out people is no fun at all. In many ways, I feel like I am Lucius. Whenever my opponent is

1) A whiny monster and plays badly at the same time, or

2) Both players agreed to a game where you want to push yourself, and then realized that your opponent is significantly weaker than you

3) Player's army composition is such that anything you do, you lose the morale high ground

4) A cheating asshole

,I lose interest immediately and unfortunately for those in 1) and 4), I also become a little bit of an asshole. I always love an opponent that is both strong and who likes to joke a lot, and that is often where I play at my finest. Sadly enough I am finding that there is a lack of such players in America, as they take things to the extreme. Either it is no fun and chomp others to submission, or lots of fun but utterly horrible. I rarely find players that are both fun and strong like those back home in Malaysia. 

[Naser Al-Istikhara Cyrus]

The difference between someone who is playing for fun, or powergaming, is usually in the attitude moreso than the army. I've had games where my army has been absolutely massacred, but I enjoyed the game because of the opponent. Warhammer is a social game - you are playing against another human being, not a computer. Win, lose or draw, you should find each and every game fun (except for those off days where the dice just hate you! ). And yes, some games will be really good games tactically, and will be more enjoyable than others, but every game should be fun.

I'm not saying that nobody should play to win - hell, I try to win every game i play! The difference is, a powergamer will often not enjoy a loss, as will his opponents.

I believe there's a difference between running a tough list, and being a powergamer, and I believe it all comes down to in-game attitude. Anytime there's a 50/50 call on something I'll give it to my opponent (providing he hasn't been a d*ck all game!) such as cover or whether being somewhere between 5.95 and 6.25 inches away from an enemy is within a charge range of 6''. Being a nice player means alot. Lists do come into it somewhat (Especially the spammage of certain stuff at lower points) but in general attitude makes or breaks a game experience.

[crisis_vyper]

The difference between someone who is playing for fun, or powergaming, is usually in the attitude moreso than the army.

This is the point that I find as a mature attitude to the game. Not playing the player and refusing a game just because of the army that they play is immature. Sadly enough, I can not defend the hobby anymore despite my love for it due to the changing mindset of what is a scrubby play and what is playing smart. I just do not know anymore.

[Carrelio]

I think the assessment so far has been pretty good, but I also feel it's missing one major factor... in 6th, Grey Knights took a huge hit.  Almost every part of their book was either less positively impacted or more negatively impacted.  Those players who were playing just to have the strongest army would suddenly be reevaluating and passing up their now much weaker grey knights...

A lot of players were playing grey knights because they were the biggest and the best cheese monsters anyone in 5th had ever seen.  They were pretty much infallible against elite armies, and the meta certainly favoured those... but even against hordes, if they wanted, they could be pretty beastly too.  They could out shoot anybody, they could out fight anybody, they could take down any vehicle or monster (with their nemesis force weapons in a single no armour saved hit).  They really were terrifying.

Now though, their nemesis force weapons are AP3 (still not bad... a deterrent).  Their primary transport, the rhino, is as fragile as any other rhino.  Their storm bolters are only slightly better than regular bolters (they still get to charge after they shoot... and get an extra shot on the move outside of 12, but it's a bigger difference than it was, and one that makes their cost less worth it).  Their anti-flyer unit costs a lot (205 point storm raven... still sweet... but in the eyes of a competitive player, why not just take 3 hydras?).  There are less vehicles in the meta, so their dreads are finding less of a home, while the hordes of enemies are increasing, which was always something GK had to be careful of.

I'm still using my GK.  I think they are a great army with some awesome models (I mostly have metal)!  But from a sheer competitive point of view, I feel you can get better from elsewhere now.  This has lead to a mass exodus of the 'flavour of the month' army group who will be on to the next powerful thing... leaving just the people who really liked the army to begin with to keep playing (now with a bad reputation as power gamers)... same as always.

[Chicop76]

I disapree. With the they are slightly nerf ideal.

1. Overwatch. Icinerators. St6 overwatch death from 2-4 flamer hits.
2. They still have a str 7 assault cannon for cheap army wide. Assault cannons cost like tripple the points and not as strong nor have an assault option.
3. Dreadknight is better now it can have 5 str 10 attacks on the charge that can re roll hits and wounds at ap 1. I hate Faq.
4. A ton of psykers. Which means a ton of psyker powers.
5 slightly better than a bolter? Youj kidding. Haveyou faced 18 strength 5 shots with 4 str or 8 str 7 shots. It tears hordes to shreds.
6. Libby can improve cover saves.

In short.players who used psynoughts have drfopped, but dreadknight use has gone up thanks to the weapons chanve.

GreyKnights excell in mid range shooting. Not to many armies can out gun Grey Knights at mid range. 

They can take allies.to replaced shortfalls like their psaynoughts.

No battlebrothers however hurts the army a bit.

[LinnScarlett]

I haven't read up on the changes to the GK, though I saw them in action in 5th and they stomped all over everybody else (...). Their dwindling seems to me an impact of people that played them to win leaving them, and those that play them because they like them remaining. Its just the same with other games - take MMORPGS, one class is overpowered and battlegrounds are swamped with the class. They get nerfed, and suddenly they're all gone and something else crops up.

I don't think refusing to play a specific army or list is going to help, you should refuse to play a certain player if they are of the OMGMUSTWIN brand and use the cheap book tricks to stomp you down. Nobody likes getting ganked. There's always people that take winning as the point of playing a game, rather than having fun. I personally never have a problem picking them out, I can get soundly beaten by a skilled player but if they act like a normal person about it rather than some sniggering scheming cretin, then I am having fun, regardless.

But then, to me playing the game (rather than painting models and lurking around forums) is more about spending a good time with people - other players, fans of 40k - and meeting new friends and opponents alike, than racking up e-peen through a winning-streak list.

[Carrelio]

I've never declined to battle someone (even absolute cheese monsters who have found some disconnect between forge world and regular 40K rules that makes their army just ridiculous).  But I do have a question about this 'declining to fight an army' business that everyone is talking about.  What build of Grey Knights is this?  Surely not every Grey Knight build is ridiculous, I can think of a bunch that are just kind of cool and fluffy.  So where does the line get drawn?  What are these players bringing that makes you say "nope, too far." Is it just Grey Knights themselves? Or is there a specific build of GK that is over the top?

[Chicop76]

I've never declined to battle someone (even absolute cheese monsters who have found some disconnect between forge world and regular 40K rules that makes their army just ridiculous).  But I do have a question about this 'declining to fight an army' business that everyone is talking about.  What build of Grey Knights is this?  Surely not every Grey Knight build is ridiculous, I can think of a bunch that are just kind of cool and fluffy.  So where does the line get drawn?  What are these players bringing that makes you say "nope, too far." Is it just Grey Knights themselves? Or is there a specific build of GK that is over the top?

It is the build mainly, but when you hear grey knights all possible list receive the same treatment. I may field a non grey knight list, but who wants to deal with 60 lazcannons being fired on them. Heck a lot of the models in the army in itself hard to deal with like 6 deathcult w/ 6 crusaders. Alone crusaders and deathcult is not too bad till you throw in hammer hand and grenades. I hade one lone unit wipe out half an army before due to hammer hand and grenades, even worst now since death cult can be strength 6, 5 or 4 depending what power weapon for free you want to give them.

They may hade receive some nerfs like Daemons, but overall they received more boons than negatives. The only model really negatively represented by this is the psy dreadnoughts. Other than that every body else is happy, and now it is worth while taking the flying box.

Like you said I've seen Grey Knight list like bolter guardsmen which isn't that bad to deal with. Although you say the word Grey Knight it doesn't matter what you field.

I however do not care and have either tied or beaten the grey knights so far last edition. I have not played against them in 6th since I've been busy dealing with a lot of stuff which is stressing me out. Anyway against Daemons they are much better since they can re roll to hit now with shooting against me. That rule change will make them more of a pain for me to deal with them.

[Matt1785]

I personally ditched all of 6th Edition in favor of Fantasy for a while.  Flyers are just plain stupid, I don't understand why they needed to be a part of regular 40K games.  As for my Grey Knight army, I stopped playing it because my entire army was Deep Striking and now I can't do that anymore.  I did an entire army of fluffy Grey Knights that started off the table and then deep struck onto the table because that's how I feel Fluffy they strike, from the shadows, not in full armored force.

Overall I still think they're top tier, but to be honest, I have seen a SERIOUS decline in 40K play in my southern Florida area.  Lots of people just aren't happy with the new rules, oh well.  Fantasy is still fun for us.

[Carrelio]

I actually feel that 6th edition is way better than 5th.  Sure the flyers are an issue, but other than that, most armies are on a much more level playing field after the love has shifted from assault to shooting.

[Chicop76]

I actually feel that 6th edition is way better than 5th.  Sure the flyers are an issue, but other than that, most armies are on a much more level playing field after the love has shifted from assault to shooting.

Kinda like the shift from 4th to 5th. 4th was heavy into combat where one melee squad could cosolidate into your whole army and wipe it out. 5th was more shooty thanks to true los, etc. 6th is even more pro Guard, I mean shooty.

You can still ds with Grey Knights you just have to field half of them and deep striking is better now.

Flyers is an issue really to before the guard codex books. Although everyone has flyers except Tau, Dark Angels, Black Templar, and Eldar which is like 4 out of 12 armies. Necrons and Ig seem to be flyer out to the max more than anyone. That being said you have fortificans as well to deal with flyers, so those 4 armies do have anti-air and they can team up with armies who do not have flyers.

I think the big issue is Necron flyers and Vendettas to be honest. I play daemons wich my Fateweaver laughs since he can blow them up with str 8 ap 1 fire, although dat darn +4 cover save is annoying, but it makes them shoot like crap the next turn.

I think the problem is people feel like they have to buy flyers to compete with everyone else. Orcs and marine flyers are in the White Dwarf which you have to hunt down to even use them. Greyknight and BloodAngel playes didn't buy the flying box last edition and they feel forced to buy it this edition, which happens not to be one of the bestest flyers anyway. Guard players already had Vendettas anyway. Necron players and Dark Eldar are now buying them since mostly they was waiting for the flyers to come out.

I forgot to mention that Space Wolves was shafted out of a flyer, so their are 5 armies out there that are flyerless. Although the armies do have forgeworld flyers which wouldeasily translate that all armies would eventually have flyers.

The flyers however, besides the Vendetta, can be mostly ignored while you destroy all the ground forces. I havn't seen as of yet flyers play a huge role, unless you waste your time shooting them. I've found more often in games you can ignore the flyer and just deal with what is on the ground and you will win.

Greyknights however might seen a decline due to Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Chaos Space Marinee books. Necrons and GreyKnights can be easily seen as similar armies, and Necrons can get that nice +3 invulnerable. The Necrons come off more attractive due to them being tougher, cheaper, and can come back. I seen Grey Knight players shift to Necrons and the Necron Grey Knight Aliance is due to that shifting.

Right now people are dusting off and trying Choas which is also bring a decline to the Grey Knights. I remember when the Blood Angels codex came out. A lot of people was playing Blood Angels for awhile.

The flyer rules makes Necrons better and more apealing to the Grey Knight player. I think the oh no I want play Grey Knights attitude is part of it. Reason why I'm rebuilding my Nid army.

[Jonagon]

Although everyone has flyers except Tau, Dark Angels, Black Templar, and Eldar which is like 4 out of 12 armies.

And Sisters of Battle
And Space Wolves

Just to be pedantic..

There are 14 valid codexs at the moment - so 6/14. 

[Chicop76]

Although everyone has flyers except Tau, Dark Angels, Black Templar, and Eldar which is like 4 out of 12 armies.

And Sisters of Battle
And Space Wolves

Just to be pedantic..

There are 14 valid codexs at the moment - so 6/14. 

I forgot about sisters lol. I did menton Space Wolves later on. Three of which no one plays.