The Virtues of a Daemon Engine (CSM)

[Fhanados]

Hi guys,

I've been toying around with an army list that essentially just contains walkers. While I have extensive experience with dreadnaughts of one variety or another (I sometimes play 2-3 in my SM army and 1-2 in my CSM) I have never used any of the other Chaos walkers, new or old. After staring at my codex for what seems like forever I've come to form an opinion on our walkers, but I'd like to hear what you all think too!

The Hellbrute
Technically not a Daemon Engine but the DV model is pretty much what I envision a proper Daemon Engine to look like - fleshy mechanical warp twisted death machine. It's a unit I both love and hate. It never performs how I want it to but usually does something useful before biting the dust.
Pros

• Cheap base cost. Running a bunch of stock 'brutes won't cost you too much.
• Decent standard loadout. Multimelta and power fist make it pretty good close range anti-armour.
• Crazed! Although it's pretty rare to actually get crazed you no longer slaughter your own troops en-masse at the drop of a hat.
• Power Scourge! I love this thing . Thunder hammer is kind of cool but really I see no reason to take it when the power fist is stock.
• Plasma Cannon
• Makes a good interference unit. Throw it in combat with something that can't hurt it, or will struggle to glance and you can cause some real headaches.

Cons

• Very few options when compared to Loyalist dreads. This actually annoys me a lot. We have the opportunity to have a unique unit that both ties us in as Space Marines yet separates us from our Loyalist equivalents at the same time. Why no daemonic possession? Vehicle marks would be fun too but that's another ball game.
• Poor options for a dakka dread. While SM get double-twinlinked autocannon the only option we have for replacing our powerfist for range is a Missile Launcher.
• Low number of attacks. With only 2 attacks it's going to take you a LONG time to chew up anything worth assaulting
• Ranged weapons options seem a bit pricey, especially the heavy flamer which is particularly useful in a CC build. It would also be nice to throw in an ectoplasm cannon or some kind of unique Chaos ranged weapon as an option
• No integrated combibolter in standard kit. WHY?! Really instead of the FAQ dropping the price by 5pts it should have just included this upgrade as standard.

Defiler
The first of it's kind (that I'm aware of): The original Daemon Engine. Also the one that confuses me most. I see these making good support units for the cheaper Hellbrute and the remainder of the army.
Pros

• Lots of hull points! More than anything except a Landraider
• Battlecannon - the only real long ranged ordnance we have.
• It's really tall, so it'll be easy to draw LOS to your target.
• Twinlinked weapons and template/blast make up for it's poor ballistic skill
• Replace your gun "arms" with CCWs including my friend the Power Scourge
• 5+ invuln, causes Fear, has Daemonforge, Fleet and It Will Not Die

Cons

• It's expensive! You pay a premium in points for this thing.
• Poor AV for its price. Whatever kills a Hellbrute will kill a Defiler.
• It's competing for Heavy Support slots with Oblits, Havocs and the Fiends, all of which can put out as much or more damage
• Firing the Battlecannon makes everything else shoot snapshots. This makes having ranged weapon "arms" almost useless unless you don't shoot the battlecannon.
• It's big! It will not be hard for your opponent to draw LOS to your big expensive death machine and bring it down with some shooting.

Forgefiend
New shiny walker! The Forgefiend is the more expensive shooty variety and brings a nice support element to the table.
Pros

• Nice range weapon options. Lots of shots with the Hades and high strength and good AP on the Ectoplasma.
• Swap your head for a gun. Always a positive in my books
• Not too expensive. You can run a few of these and not break the bank with points.
• 5+ invuln, causes Fear, has Daemonforge, Fleet and It Will Not Die

Cons

• Again, poor AV.
• Poor BS. Not so much an issue when using Ectoplasma but with the 50% hit rate you'll probably end up missing with a lot of the Hades shots.
• Lots of plasma means lots of self-harm. 1s are bad!
• Competes with other Heavy Support choices.
• Not many options. I'd imagine that Daemon Engines would be very variable and individual but really the Feinds are pretty plain.

Maulerfiend
Pros

• Fairly cheap. Will cost about the same as a Hellbrute with some upgrades
• 5+ invuln, causes Fear, has Daemonforge, Fleet and It Will Not Die
• Very fast! Moves 12" and being able to re-roll charge distances is crazy good.
• Two powerfists as standard.
• Lasher Tendrils can mess with your opponent in Close Combat pretty fiercely, especially since with the upgrade you get TWO of them for one purchase

Cons

• Poor AV (see a pattern?).
• Absolutely zero range ability.
• Magma Cutters are terrible. Lasher Tendrils are pretty much a must-have.
• Even with 2 powerfists you still don't get many attacks. Less if you drop the Cutters for Tendrils
• Basically no options
• Heavy support, again competing with a lot of other good options.

Helldrake
Our codex's token flier and one of the few units people seem to be scrambling to get a hold of. Generally very good in almost every way, but I still don't consider it a "must have".
Pros

• It's a flyer. Enough said.
• 5+ invuln, causes Fear, has Daemonforge and It Will Not Die
• Baleflamer is brutal anti-infantry and burns through MEQ as easlily as GEQ
• It can Vector Strike despite not being a Flying Monstrous Creature
• Good AV for a flier

Cons

• Only has a single weapon.
• For a supposed anti-flyer flyer it's pretty rubbish at killing flyers.
• No options other than to replace the Hades with Baleflamer

Thanks for reading my wall of text. Please weigh in your opinions because most of mine is speculation!

[Arguleon-veq]

I will start with the Helldrake, by far the best engine in the book and fantastic for its points. It is actually really good against flyers, consider that vector strike averages 3S7 hits on a flyer, that's as good as a night scythe shooting another flyer. Then it can burn a ground unit in the same turn or with a hades it can get 2 more S8 hits on another flyer. Also when you are vector striking now, the enemy doesn't get a cover save.

The hellbrute is poor, I LOVE chaos dreads, the fluff, the models etc so I always take one but they are terrible. As you say, lack of upgrades kills them. If you want to spam walkers as an army theme the simple proliferation of AV12 increases their effectiveness a bit.

Forgefiend is ok but too many points for what it can actually do.
Defiler I actually like, the battlecannon is a big bonus and it isn't that many points if you consider the extra HP should add an extra 25 percent to its value. The other guns are handy for weapon destroyed results and a snapshotting reaper should still usually manage a hit. I think a defiler with a reaper and scourge is pretty sweet.

Maulers are fantastic value and I don't think magmas are that bad, its an extra hit a turn for free. Its speed is the killer, as you pointed out a lot of units can't deal with an AV12 walker in combat, the Mauler is quick enough to pick out these units and reach them.

If you want to fill your army with them I'd go for 2 brutes with autocannons, 1 with MM+heavy flamer. Defiler, 2 Maulers. Your looking at under 700 points for the lot and its all versatile besides the maulers. Throw in a Drake and you have the core of your theme list for under 900 leaving half your points for scoring and HQ if your playing 1850.

[Fhanados]

Thanks for replying!

I agree with you 100% with the Hellbrute. I love Dreads of all varieties, and until recently frequently faced GK rifleman Dread spam and used Dreads with various loadouts in my SM army. I LOVE Ironclads, and while I think the AV13 Dread should remain the property of Loyalists (who actually give a damn about their Dreadnaughts) I found the weapons options intriguing. Chaos Marines don't care about "approved" designs, and would stick a daemon bound to a lawnmower blade on a school bus if it killed more of the Emperor's lapdogs in the name of the Dark Gods. It's also why I hate our Landraider so much.

Our Dreads/Brutes should be unique. In some ways they are, but once you scratch the paint off it's just a recycled SM dread with less useful options. Hell I'd be happy if I could rock a second twinlinked heavy bolter as my replacement to CCWs. Extra shooty, different from SM and still suitably Dreadnaughty.

I have a few questions relevant to the discussion of walkers

• Does every close combat weapon a walker have add +1 attack, or is it the same as infantry requiring 2 weapons for +1A?
  For example a stock standard Brute has 2A on it's profile. Does it get +1A for its power fist, or would it need to replace its ranged weapon for a second fist?
• If NO to the above question, if a walker suffers "weapon destroyed" does it lose 1A, or just lose the benefits of the weapon?
• Does a walker with a Power Fist and Power Scourge that chooses to attack using the Fist still benefit from the effects of the Scourge?

[Cammerz]

I have a few questions relevant to the discussion of walkers

• Does every close combat weapon a walker have add +1 attack, or is it the same as infantry requiring 2 weapons for +1A?
  For example a stock standard Brute has 2A on it's profile. Does it get +1A for its power fist, or would it need to replace its ranged weapon for a second fist?
• If NO to the above question, if a walker suffers "weapon destroyed" does it lose 1A, or just lose the benefits of the weapon?
• Does a walker with a Power Fist and Power Scourge that chooses to attack using the Fist still benefit from the effects of the Scourge?

I'll do my best to answer these:
1) "If a walker is armed with two or more melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus attacks for each additional weapon after the first ... If one of its additional melee weapons is destroyed, one bonus attack is lost". For this full paragraph check the rulebook page 84. You get 2 attacks as standard because you have that power fist, if you lose the power fist or swap it out for a non-melee weapon then it shouldn't affect the base number of attacks. With an additional melee weapon instead of the ranged one, you're up to three attacks.
2) I think I've answered that one, if you lose anything but the original one then you lose the bonus attack. You will of course lose the benefits if all weapons of that type are lost.
3) The wording for the Power Scourge says that model just needs to have the weapon at the beginning of the phase so you can gain the benefits of it whilst using power fists.


As for the general topic, I haven't had a chance to use any daemon engines personally (yet) but I am entering my Defiler (with reaper autocannon and power scourge) in a doubles tournament early next month so I can get back to this topic after that to let you all know how it went.