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Second Sphere Announcements, News and Community => News, Rumours and Trading => Topic started by: The Allfather on July 03, 2015, 02:25:30 PM

Title: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: The Allfather on July 03, 2015, 02:25:30 PM
So, uhhh... what do we think of Age of Sigmar?
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Narric on July 03, 2015, 04:48:43 PM
Quote from: The Allfather on July 03, 2015, 02:25:30 PM
So, uhhh... what do we think of Age of Sigmar?
Saw it when I last walked past a GW. I think they should have probably kept the Rulebook more as a core text, and have these "Time of Ending" "Age of Sigmar" storylines as a proper campaign or themed expansion.

It also completely throws me out of Fantasy, as the last book I bought was from the Island of Blood Starter Box :P
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Masked Thespian on July 04, 2015, 06:07:44 AM
Quote from: The Allfather on July 03, 2015, 02:25:30 PM
So, uhhh... what do we think of Age of Sigmar?

I've been skimming the rules this afternoon.  It's...  umm...  It's different, that's what I can say.  It certainly looks very polished but whether it plays well is another thing.  The rules seem very heavily influenced by games from other companies such as Privateer Press.

I'm not terribly fond of the new story, that the Old World was shattered and this new game is set amidst a number of new worlds, all interlinked somehow (how, I'm not yet sure: like I said, I've only been skimming the documents).  It's certainly fantastical, but it's a very different paradigm from how things used to be.  I'm not sure I like where they've gone with it, to be honest.

Having said that, I think it's brave of GW to do such an earth-shattering (no pun intended) change.  For many years they were criticised for keeping the status quo (Eye of Terror and Storm of Chaos, especially) so to see them actually go through with the End Times and blow up the world is somewhat of a breath of fresh air, even if I'm not too particular about the new air...

Oh, and they promised us that they would give us rules to use our old models.  Well, I don't see any scrolls for Chaos Dwarfs or Dogs of War...   >:(
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Cammerz on July 04, 2015, 09:38:50 AM
Well the End Times are over and the Age of Sigmar has arrived, with the Warhammer Fantasy version of Space Marines and everything on round bases. The four new Grand Alliances; Chaos, Death, Destruction and Order, guess which one the Dark Elves are in? No, you guessed incorrectly, they're in Order. They've also decided to rename everything, Orks are now Orruks, Elves are Aelfs (or Aelves, I'm not certain) and Dwarfs are Duardin. (My guess is that they've gone from names they can't copyright to names which they can, like Imperial Guard becoming Astra Militarum).

In a first for GW since the days when they almost supported the Specialist Games range, the new rules and 'warscrolls' are available to download for free from the website. http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/age-of-sigmar-compendiums?_requestid=5615132

I'm going to spend a while reading through this lot but my first impressions are low. It looks like they're turning fantasy into 40k and I doubt that I'll be participating.

EDIT: "The Grail Vow: You can re-roll all failed hit rolls for this unit if, before rolling the dice, you hold aloft a grail or goblet and shout 'For the Lady' in a heroic voice." - genuine rule for Bretonnian Grail Knights
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Narric on July 04, 2015, 10:32:04 AM
Free Rules and Army Books? I'm genuinely not sure what to think!! I mean I guess you can buy a physical copy to save printing out a warscroll yourself, but wow, thats a step I would have never thought GW to take.

Quote from: Cammerz on July 04, 2015, 09:38:50 AM
"The Grail Vow: You can re-roll all failed hit rolls for this unit if, before rolling the dice, you hold aloft a grail or goblet and shout 'For the Lady' in a heroic voice." - genuine rule for Bretonnian Grail Knights
So we're going to be seeing a lot more Meta actions that effect in-game results :P And a lot of people doig stupid stuff for fun.

One other thing that comes to mindis that maybe they realised people were hacking the E-reader and Tablet editions of their Codexi and figured it would be easier to just give the rules and books for free :P
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Cammerz on July 04, 2015, 10:42:49 AM
It looks like the rules are free however no points values are provided so I have no idea how this game is supposed to be balanced.

I've also found this rule for Josef Bugman;
"Liquid Fortification: You can add 1 to the Bravery of Josef Bugman and any Dispossessed unit from your army within 4" of him whilst you are holding a drink."

EDIT: Greasus Goldtooth has a rule where you literally bribe your opponent to control one of their units, make it flee, stop it doing things etc. for a turn, and you can attempt to bribe your opponent every turn. You could go to a tournament and hear "I'll pay you £10 if your Stormvermin flee this turn" and that would be perfectly acceptable.

And another one; "One Bat Short of a Belfry: Konrad is a violent lunatic, and his temper does little to help his stretched sanity. If, during your hero phase, you talk to Konrad von Carstein, you can re-roll all hit rolls of 1 for him until your next hero phase. If Konrad von Carstein talks back to you, re-roll all failed hit rolls instead." - what?

The WoC cockatrice also involves a staring contest.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Narric on July 04, 2015, 11:05:33 AM
I noticed that as well.

I think they're more akin to an Errata than a true Army Book. They expect people to have the army book of choice already, which would provide Pts costs and limitations, whilst the Warscroll just a updates the units to be in line with the new rules.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on July 04, 2015, 08:02:06 PM
Now this sounds interesting. I think I may need to look into this. The name changes are a minor detail, and frankly I prefer Duardin for my favourite race, but it's nice to see GW actually advancing things. Assuming they do things correctly this could be very, very interesting. I also quite like the fact that they've gone back, at least in part, to tongue in cheek craziness if Bugman's rules etc are accurate.

Does it still play like Fantasy or is it more akin to 40k now?
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Mabbz on July 04, 2015, 08:17:38 PM
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on July 04, 2015, 08:02:06 PM
Does it still play like Fantasy or is it more akin to 40k now?
I went in to Games Workshop (actually hoping for a game of 40k, but whatever) and some of the people there were describing it as a cross between 40k and the Hobbit. I feel I should point out at this stage that the core rules are exactly four pages long. So that's an interesting change.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on July 04, 2015, 08:20:46 PM
I've not played the Hobbit so that grants little information. I like that there's elements of 40k though as that was how I got in to Fantasy in the first place, through 40k.

4 pages long? That's impressive. Or worrying, one of the 2. Think I'll pop down to GW next weekend and see what I can find out.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Narric on July 04, 2015, 10:57:06 PM
The four page rule book has begun to worry me. All those additional rules, mainly related to psychology, lended greatly to how regiments and individuals would react to something. now all that is squished nto a single "Bravery" score.

A weapon defined roll to hit also doesn't make much sense. It implies to me (gfrom my breese through of reading the rules and dwarf Warscroll) that a Sword is just as likely to hit when equipped by a "lvl 1" human, then it is in the hands of a centuries old Dwarf or Elf. same applies to how easy a weapon would inflict damage not reflecting the target its hitting. Why does Sword of Mediocrity wound a greater daemon easier than Axe of +5 Awesome and Chest Hair?

Then I realised something else. A while ago one of the GW design team left, and joined Mantic Games. Alessio Cavatore then made the core rules for Kings of War and Warpath which use much simpler stats and mechanics to play pretty much the same Warhammer games. With this realisation, I began wondering if GW have made this move to compete with Mantics simpler rules, and to perhaps make Cavatore regret leaving the company.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Cammerz on July 05, 2015, 09:21:39 AM
Quote from: Narric on July 04, 2015, 11:05:33 AM
I noticed that as well.

I think they're more akin to an Errata than a true Army Book. They expect people to have the army book of choice already, which would provide Pts costs and limitations, whilst the Warscroll just a updates the units to be in line with the new rules.

GW are no longer selling the army books. This is concerning. One person I know has interpreted the new rules as 'you each have an army with the same number of models' which is of course ridiculous and broken but the lack of points values anywhere does suggest that he might be right and that means that balance becomes nearly impossible.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: The Allfather on July 05, 2015, 03:07:28 PM
Yeah, it doesn't make sense for them to literally blow it all up, yet expect people to use their old Army Books to balance the new armies. There doesn't seem to be any kind of structure, just bring whatever you want and play. Which can work if you're only playing with friends, but what about tournaments?
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Narric on July 07, 2015, 01:22:20 PM
Original posting on Beasts of War website: http://www.beastsofwar.com/age-of-sigmar/age-sigmar-app-coming-future-plans/

Emphasis my own.

On thast third highlighted point, what does that even mean? That the only way GW will balance an issue, is if its noticed/exploited in a tournament setting? Surely that is too slow for any real damage to be averted.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: The Allfather on July 08, 2015, 03:14:33 AM
Quote from: Narric on July 07, 2015, 01:22:20 PM
  • They want to talk with the community about the game

Maybe they should start doing this BEFORE they do things like completely scrap a game to make way for a new one. I swear, in any other medium the company would go down in flames acting the way GW does all the time. They make beautiful models, but their business practices seem to leave people scratching their heads a lot. Maybe I don't know the market well enough, maybe most people don't care, but from every forum I've seen responses on, none of them have been particularly good.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: silverfuge on July 28, 2015, 10:57:34 PM
Had a few games down at the club. Basically simplified 40k. The balance mechanism at the moment seems to be wounds and even then you need to have an gentlemans agreement not to be a douche. I think if you want a serious wargame then maybe look at other systems but a quick beer and pretzzles game is fine.

I personally feel they will lose a lot of people from the hobby, some will switch back to 40k and they will gain a lot of other people who previously thought warhammer was too complicated. So prob a net gain for GW as new people spend more to get into the hobby.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Narric on July 28, 2015, 11:36:19 PM
Is Wounds really the best way though? A standard equipment skaven isn't going to be worth the same as an Empire Statetrooper.
The chaps over at Mini Wargaming found that adding Attacks and Wound and multiplying the result by the models' bravery made for a more balanced force.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Thantos on July 29, 2015, 03:58:31 PM
Cant comment much on rules, but the space marine with a bow irks me.

(http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99120218002_STORMCASTETERNALSJUDICATORS04.jpg)

Armour like that to reduce mobility so unable to pull a bow correctly?
Helmet with small eye holes to reduce visibility so you cant see what you are shooting at?
Should be BS1 :P

These holy warriors of sigmar are too close to Space marines, GW know SMs sell well, so now they have SMs in fantasy and an excuse to rewrite the world's fluff to focus around them. Shameless :-\ it's probably a good business decision for them (or they think so at least) but its just sad to see 30 years of fluff trampled on to make way for some shiny new boxed sets that 11 year old kids will buy more of.

I do like the models for both sides so far, but they are not inkeeping with the style or fluff I associate with warhammer fantasy.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Narric on July 29, 2015, 09:30:29 PM
Don't forget about the (Heavy) BoltThrowers
Spoiler
(http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99120218002_STORMCASTETERNALSJUDICATORS05.jpg)

Quote from: Thantos on July 29, 2015, 03:58:31 PM
Cant comment much on rules, but the space marine with a bow irks me.
Rules are free, which is about the only good thing.

Quote from: Thantos on July 29, 2015, 03:58:31 PM
I do like the models for both sides so far, but they are not inkeeping with the style or fluff I associate with warhammer fantasy.
I agree with this. Never was much of a Fantasy player, but I still enjoyed reading the lore. If I had the funds, Lore alone would have inspired me to create some fantastic armies.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: The Allfather on July 30, 2015, 03:31:16 AM
Quote from: Thantos on July 29, 2015, 03:58:31 PM
Armour like that to reduce mobility so unable to pull a bow correctly?
Helmet with small eye holes to reduce visibility so you cant see what you are shooting at?
Should be BS1 :P

But they're basically Angels of Death so they don't really even need to be able to see out of their armor's eye holes, because they have built in auto-targetting programs are supernatural beings.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: kingofmonkeys on July 30, 2015, 08:22:20 AM
As someone who's invested a really long time into fantasy I really really dislike it. I really liked fantasy's game play style I wanted an army game not a skirmish game when I started playing fantasy. The overly simplistic ruleset lacks the sort of thing that made fantasy what it was. As for some of the rules model to model measurement is not so great lends itself to all sorts of arguments as to ranged weapon fire. The chaos models look sharp but even if you wanted to use them for something more like fantasy the way they're sculpted pretty much prevents them from ranking up correctly. The sigmarines are just.. wow pretty much of the things any of my fantasy playgroup would have ever wanted that's pretty much dead last in the ranking. the scultps for them are just eugh not a fan and the story for them is hamfisted as they come. Some GW stores are saying you can't even play fantasy on their tables anymore it's age of sigmar or go home, pretty much the entire thing is just pissing on the people who actually enjoyed fantasy.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Irisado on October 04, 2015, 10:07:36 PM
It is, to all intents and purposes, an indifferent imitation of Kings of War.  I like the fact that the rules are more simplified, but, at the same time, there seem to be holes in them.  Some quite big holes.  There seems to be a lot of emphasis on players just working things out for themselves.  That's okay to a certain extent I guess, but it seems incomplete to me.

It's also a shame that GW decided to tear up all the narrative and background.  That, to me, is disappointing.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: The Allfather on January 28, 2016, 04:38:56 AM
I think a big issue is that they have a tendency to write themselves into a corner by constantly escalating the conflicts in the fluff. Which makes sense, because you obviously don't want the game to stagnate. However, especially in such a setting as a single planet, there's only so much you can do. It's easier to keep things going when you have the entire Galaxy like 40K.
Title: Re: Warhammer, wait what?
Post by: Narric on January 28, 2016, 08:56:14 AM
They still could have Deus ex Machina'd us into the same timeline. Heck, I could actually see the Storm Guard (or whatever they're called) as being the plot device that saves the warhammer world, without the need to reset it. Doing so would have given them freedom to write a age of puase where the races reconcile their loses and victories, allowing for dramatic changes in methodology and mindset, such as dwarfs being envigored to create more devastating technology above their holds in a showy display to deter evilforces from trying anything, the Empire to become more prosperous and stronger in unity, The elves to return to their island or unite under a single banner.

GW pulling a boardwipe and then saying everyone just went back to how they were before, plus this new factions of dudes who are OP as fuck, makes me feel like they couldn't muster the creativity to really capitalise on the world "Reset" they were doing.

I haven't looked at AoS in a while, and now I'm wondering if any of the Time of Ending stuff became unplayable due to being written out of the faction warscrolls. Which again would have been a interesting point to use for a better world reset.