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February Tau Rumours

Started by Narric, February 03, 2013, 12:50:24 PM

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Railgun Convention

Best basic weapon, yes, but the Kroot have about the same survivability in almost all situations, can handle themselves well in combat, and point for point can match a Fire Warrior against most targets in shooting. So they can't handle transports? Charge it with 60-odd attacks and glance the damn thing to death.

And the Guard's MC is quite blatantly the Vendetta, regardless of the fact it's an aircraft :P
So how many crashes have I survived now?

Charistoph

#46
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on March 01, 2013, 09:22:47 PM
A: I'm fairly sure Inquisitors only have 1 slot in the Grey Knights codex, you might want to look up a better example.

They are in 2 tiers of slots, with possibilities to move 1 to a third.  Now, by Inquisitors here, I mean the Inquisition, their Assassins and their Henchmen, sorry if I wasn't clear on that.  And you can still mount a pure Inquisition army from that codex with not a single Grey Knight.

QuoteB: Forgeworld models may be official, but the rules are far from it for the 40K table. Everyone knows that Forgeworld models are always poorly costed and unbalanced. There's a reason you need your opponent's permission to use any of them. As for providing another option, the Tau should not have combat options. The Tau codex is a ranged codex, they shouldn't get Monstrous Creatures or extra combat options just "because". As I've pointed out, they don't NEED a Monstrous Creature because you have Suits and Tanks with decent armour, there is no role for it to fulfil.
[/quote]

No role to fulfill?  Is it stepping on Farsight's toes?  Did something else in the army suddenly get Smash?  I suppose the Vespid are doing their job too well, maybe?

As for NEED, you maybe right on the MC, unless one wants to field a version of the Kroot Merc codex without relying on a fairly outdated Chapter Approved (which some won't accept any sooner than a Forgeworld unit) and on a current codex instead.

For the Tau not needing combat options, a Knarloc isn't Tau, it's Kroot, so it has every right to be there as a Hound, Stingwing, or Carnivore, and Kroot CAN do combat.

Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on March 01, 2013, 09:55:48 PM
As for Kroot being better at range, that's bullshit frankly. Tau get the highest strength basic weapon in the game, with the longest range (normal, and rapid) and at least average AP.

10 Str 4 shots can do as much damage to an enemy unit as 6 Str 5, usually, with availability to do more.  Add in the ability to carry a Rapid-Fire Autocannon, and they can actually do more without requiring another unit.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

InsaneTD

I'll agree the "suits" aren't needed. And I also said will by the end of the current update cycle. Name one codex released since 6th that hasn't had an MC.

Having the best gun don't mean shit if you can't back it up with ability.  Fire warriors only advantages over kroot are Transports, grenades, pulse weapons and the fact the are tau  which isn't that great since it's only of use if there is an etheral on the field. The fact they can have a Transport is the only reason I use more FWs then Kroot.

When I lose, it's always because of CC. Even when I've been out shot, I still pull at least a draw. CC is still strong.

Charistoph

Quote from: Tybalt Defet on March 02, 2013, 12:45:09 AM
... Name one codex released since 6th that hasn't had an MC.

What was the Dark Angel MC again?  I keep forgetting.

There have been only 3 since 6th launched, and 2 are Chaos with Daemon Princes.

But a Tau MC is stupid  (note, TAU, a Kroot one is fine) as it goes completely against character, while a Walker suits their preferences more.  Walkers are better gunners (if given enough guns), while MCs are better in melee.  And where do Tau prefer to fight, again?

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Railgun Convention on March 01, 2013, 11:50:33 PM
Best basic weapon, yes, but the Kroot have about the same survivability in almost all situations, can handle themselves well in combat, and point for point can match a Fire Warrior against most targets in shooting. So they can't handle transports? Charge it with 60-odd attacks and glance the damn thing to death.
I'm sorry, when exactly did the Kroot get a 4+ armour save? That's news to me.

Quote from: Charistoph on March 02, 2013, 12:17:34 AM
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on March 01, 2013, 09:22:47 PM
A: I'm fairly sure Inquisitors only have 1 slot in the Grey Knights codex, you might want to look up a better example.

They are in 2 tiers of slots, with possibilities to move 1 to a third.  Now, by Inquisitors here, I mean the Inquisition, their Assassins and their Henchmen, sorry if I wasn't clear on that.  And you can still mount a pure Inquisition army from that codex with not a single Grey Knight.
Fair enough. I'm at fault there too I guess for thinking too literally. :P

Quote from: Charistoph on March 02, 2013, 12:17:34 AM
QuoteB: Forgeworld models may be official, but the rules are far from it for the 40K table. Everyone knows that Forgeworld models are always poorly costed and unbalanced. There's a reason you need your opponent's permission to use any of them. As for providing another option, the Tau should not have combat options. The Tau codex is a ranged codex, they shouldn't get Monstrous Creatures or extra combat options just "because". As I've pointed out, they don't NEED a Monstrous Creature because you have Suits and Tanks with decent armour, there is no role for it to fulfil.

No role to fulfill?  Is it stepping on Farsight's toes?  Did something else in the army suddenly get Smash?  I suppose the Vespid are doing their job too well, maybe?

As for NEED, you maybe right on the MC, unless one wants to field a version of the Kroot Merc codex without relying on a fairly outdated Chapter Approved (which some won't accept any sooner than a Forgeworld unit) and on a current codex instead.

For the Tau not needing combat options, a Knarloc isn't Tau, it's Kroot, so it has every right to be there as a Hound, Stingwing, or Carnivore, and Kroot CAN do combat.[/quote]
Why does the Tau Empire codex have to have something with Smash? Dark Angels don't have anything with it and gets by just fine.

As for the need of the MC in general, unless there's a guaranteed Kroot HQ (which I know is rumoured, but no guarantee) then I can't see it being used often enough to be worth putting in frankly. If you can't take a pure Kroot force many people (I believe) would simply stick to the Broadsides and Hammerhead and blow everything up from distance. I might be wrong, but that's how I personally see it.

Quote from: Charistoph on March 02, 2013, 12:17:34 AM
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on March 01, 2013, 09:55:48 PM
As for Kroot being better at range, that's bullshit frankly. Tau get the highest strength basic weapon in the game, with the longest range (normal, and rapid) and at least average AP.

10 Str 4 shots can do as much damage to an enemy unit as 6 Str 5, usually, with availability to do more.  Add in the ability to carry a Rapid-Fire Autocannon, and they can actually do more without requiring another unit.
I don't know points costs for Kroot, but frankly I still think the Firewarriors are the better option. Their 4+ save makes them more survivable, as does the ability to outrange their opponents, and frankly, BS3 is still decent given everything the Tau get and I seriously hope they don't get BS4. Or that if they do they cost more than a Marine, because BS4 with the best weapon is just absurd.
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May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

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The Man They Call Jayne

"BS3 is still decent given everything the Tau get and I seriously hope they don't get BS4. Or that if they do they cost more than a Marine, because BS4 with the best weapon is just absurd."

So -1T -1S -2WS -1Ld -1Sv -2I is fine, but if they get a +16% chance to hit they need to be AT LEAST 17 points each?
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Railgun Convention

Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on March 02, 2013, 02:57:56 PM
Quote from: Railgun Convention on March 01, 2013, 11:50:33 PM
Best basic weapon, yes, but the Kroot have about the same survivability in almost all situations, can handle themselves well in combat, and point for point can match a Fire Warrior against most targets in shooting. So they can't handle transports? Charge it with 60-odd attacks and glance the damn thing to death.
I'm sorry, when exactly did the Kroot get a 4+ armour save? That's news to me.
Cover saves. So long as the terrain fairy isn't feeling malicious, Kroot are in pretty much the same boat.
So how many crashes have I survived now?

Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on March 02, 2013, 03:48:49 PM
"BS3 is still decent given everything the Tau get and I seriously hope they don't get BS4. Or that if they do they cost more than a Marine, because BS4 with the best weapon is just absurd."

So -1T -1S -2WS -1Ld -1Sv -2I is fine, but if they get a +16% chance to hit they need to be AT LEAST 17 points each?
When you can outrange ANY other army, wound half of the armies on a 2+ and get a boosted rapid fire, you need to be bloody expensive for the sake of balance. Otherwise you can simply sit at the back of the board and obliterate almost any army with impunity and minimal losses. Also, check Chaos and Dark Angels, Marines aren't 17pts each any more.

Quote from: Railgun Convention on March 02, 2013, 04:03:32 PM
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on March 02, 2013, 02:57:56 PM
Quote from: Railgun Convention on March 01, 2013, 11:50:33 PM
Best basic weapon, yes, but the Kroot have about the same survivability in almost all situations, can handle themselves well in combat, and point for point can match a Fire Warrior against most targets in shooting. So they can't handle transports? Charge it with 60-odd attacks and glance the damn thing to death.
I'm sorry, when exactly did the Kroot get a 4+ armour save? That's news to me.
Cover saves. So long as the terrain fairy isn't feeling malicious, Kroot are in pretty much the same boat.
Kroot only get Stealth in Woodland don't they? Hardly guaranteed.
Mkoll's Awesome Card Counter: +8

May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

[img]http

The Man They Call Jayne

Even assuming  that all amrines get dropped to around 14 points each basic, for a firewarrior to cost more would have to be 15 points. +5 points per model for a +16% chance to hit. Thats just crazy, mainly because using said MEQ as an example in a 10 v 10 unit, you are still only wouldnt on 3s and they get a 3+ save, You are wounded on 3s and get a 4+ save, then the ones that survive the shooting are going to eat you in CC even if you have 2-1 odd in your favor.

They just arent worth that much for their statline with +1 BS.
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Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on March 03, 2013, 03:12:58 AM
Even assuming  that all amrines get dropped to around 14 points each basic, for a firewarrior to cost more would have to be 15 points. +5 points per model for a +16% chance to hit. Thats just crazy, mainly because using said MEQ as an example in a 10 v 10 unit, you are still only wouldnt on 3s and they get a 3+ save, You are wounded on 3s and get a 4+ save, then the ones that survive the shooting are going to eat you in CC even if you have 2-1 odd in your favor.

They just arent worth that much for their statline with +1 BS.
You're forgetting that you outrange said Marines rather comfortably, now including an increased rapid fire range. With BS4 you're comfortably taking out 2 Marines a turn with 10 Firewarriors, and you can do that without fear of being shot back. That means your rapid fire will wipe almost half a squad. Believe me, you wouldn't be that outmatched. And frankly, when you're hitting on 3+ from a safe distance, wounding almost every army on 2+ and denying them a save because of the AP, you really should be bloody expensive.
Mkoll's Awesome Card Counter: +8

May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

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Narric

Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on March 03, 2013, 01:04:31 PM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on March 03, 2013, 03:12:58 AM
Even assuming  that all amrines get dropped to around 14 points each basic, for a firewarrior to cost more would have to be 15 points. +5 points per model for a +16% chance to hit. Thats just crazy, mainly because using said MEQ as an example in a 10 v 10 unit, you are still only wouldnt on 3s and they get a 3+ save, You are wounded on 3s and get a 4+ save, then the ones that survive the shooting are going to eat you in CC even if you have 2-1 odd in your favor.

They just arent worth that much for their statline with +1 BS.
You're forgetting that you outrange said Marines rather comfortably, now including an increased rapid fire range. With BS4 you're comfortably taking out 2 Marines a turn with 10 Firewarriors, and you can do that without fear of being shot back. That means your rapid fire will wipe almost half a squad. Believe me, you wouldn't be that outmatched. And frankly, when you're hitting on 3+ from a safe distance, wounding almost every army on 2+ and denying them a save because of the AP, you really should be bloody expensive.
Mkoll, from my point ofview, you're stating that Tau should only have Ranged support, and yet here you are fighting against something that would support the Tau at range.

If Tau are not allowed anything to help them in combat, why are they not allowed to put near total emphasis on Shooting?

As pointed out earlier, though Tau Fire Warriors could be BS4, they're still "-1T -1S -2WS -1Ld -1Sv -2I" when compared to the Marines they're out ranging. So despite being easy to kill at range, and especially easy to kill in combat, and more likely to fail a Ld based test, for the simple fact they could take out Marines with relative ease, in the field of combat they're supposedly the masters of (possible over-exageration), they are broken/OP?

If you say that now, why are they not OP as is, being able to hit their target 50% of the time already?

Can I ask this: If Tau had Boltgun equivalent weapons, and BS4, would you call them OP? With no other changes?

The Man They Call Jayne

Denying them a save because of AP? When Pulse rifles become AP3 as standard I will be the first one to cry cheese, believe me.
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Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Narric on March 03, 2013, 02:17:47 PM
Mkoll, from my point ofview, you're stating that Tau should only have Ranged support, and yet here you are fighting against something that would support the Tau at range.

If Tau are not allowed anything to help them in combat, why are they not allowed to put near total emphasis on Shooting?

As pointed out earlier, though Tau Fire Warriors could be BS4, they're still "-1T -1S -2WS -1Ld -1Sv -2I" when compared to the Marines they're out ranging. So despite being easy to kill at range, and especially easy to kill in combat, and more likely to fail a Ld based test, for the simple fact they could take out Marines with relative ease, in the field of combat they're supposedly the masters of (possible over-exageration), they are broken/OP?

If you say that now, why are they not OP as is, being able to hit their target 50% of the time already?

Can I ask this: If Tau had Boltgun equivalent weapons, and BS4, would you call them OP? With no other changes?
I'm not arguing against it, I'm simply pointing out that they will need a major price increase for them to be balanced if they become BS4. As I've pointed out, they're more than a match for Marines at range with that boost, and I shudder to think what they'd do against less survivable armies. The main issue is that they'd then be on par with the best shooters in the game AND have the best weapons AND be able to comfortably sit out of range of the majority of weapons while dealing that much damage. Tau aren't fragile compared to most units out there, they have an above average save and decent leadership.

If they had a boltgun equivalent then no, I wouldn't say they're OP, but while they can sit out of range with a stronger basic weapon than anyone else they have no right being BS4 unless they cost 14/15pts each. Combat is already harder to reach this edition, the pulse rifle's strength advantage makes that even harder, adding in the range factor makes it almost impossible without either deep striking or outflanking, in which case you still need to survive at least 1 turn of rapid fire, which a lot of units simply can't do.

Jayne: I said they deny armour to MOST units, not all. A lot of Eldar, almost all Dark Eldar and Tyranids, Guard, Orks. The only units that get a save are Marines, Necrons, other Tau and some elite units like Incubi and Banshees.
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May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

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DEF Knight

QuoteYou're forgetting that you outrange said Marines rather comfortably, now including an increased rapid fire range. With BS4 you're comfortably taking out 2 Marines a turn with 10 Firewarriors, and you can do that without fear of being shot back. That means your rapid fire will wipe almost half a squad. Believe me, you wouldn't be that outmatched. And frankly, when you're hitting on 3+ from a safe distance, wounding almost every army on 2+ and denying them a save because of the AP, you really should be bloody expensive.

Pulse rifles are the most powerful basic infantry weapon in the game, that's for sure, but you shouldn't get ahead of yourself here. Most powerful doesn't mean world shattering firepower- it means an extra strength and 6 inches of range. It makes a big difference, no doubt, but look at it this way:

Sisters of battle, for 2 points more per model and losing that strength and range on their guns, get +1BS +1I, a 3+ save, a 6++ invul, a pistol, frag and krak grenades, +1Ld, two different acts of faith to use.

1 Point more and you have a Chaos Marine, with +1WS, +1I, +1S and +1T, but without the Acts of Faith or 6++

Are sisters OP? I don't think so. So what's a +1bs worth? I think wherever I've seen it, it has been 1pt, but I don't remember any examples. Certainly Krieg get +1ws for a point a piece (and stubborn, and auto-rally near an officer as well)

Codex Grey Knights lists 4+ armour for henchmen to be 4 points, and 3+ armour to be 10. Ghostplate in codex Dark Eldar, giving a 4+ and 6++ to replace a 5+ is 10 points, and their 3+ armour is reserved for MC and Incubi. It is evident that the jump from 4+ to 3+ armour is an expensive one. If so shouldn't sisters be incredibly OP?

Let's look again. What are Acts of Faith worth to a sister? You can reroll 1's in CC or shooting, which is functionally a +1BS and better than +1WS, but only sometimes, and you can auto-rally sometimes. We know Krieg can auto-rally with their 1 point upgrade, so we'll say thats included, and we'll say the other powers are already paid for with their 6++ at a cost of 2 (cause a 6+ is only 1 point. a Chaos Cultist gets a 6++ for1 point, a Marine for 2, so the cost is somewhere in between). so we strip those out, and a Sister costs the same as a Fire Warrior. That means a 3 point difference between the Sister and Chaos Marine accounts only for +1WS, +1I, +1S and +1T. That's an easy cost estimate- WS and I are 1 point, S and T 1 point apiece. Then again, marks of Slaanesh and Nurgle cost an extra point for a marine over a cultist, for instance, so we see a pattern of diminishing returns- boost a score from 4 to 5 costs more than from 3 to 4.

The math, then, would indicate the extra S of a pulse rifle should be worth about 2 points.

a CSM and  a CSM Biker have a points difference of 7. That gives 12" movement, Hammer of Wrath, jink, farther charge distance, +1T, relentless, and a twin linked bolter, plus anything else I might be forgetting. we know the T bonus should be worth about 3, a la Mark of Nurgle, but if we've ball-parked 2 points for that level of upgrade as the average we'll stick with it. so for 5 points we get the rest of it. Twin Linked is worth about +1BS, maybe a little less. We'll say throw in relentless to make up the difference (as youre getting a few more shots where you wouldnt), to be nice we'll say thats just 1 point. jink is probably worth at least a point, so is hammer of wrath, leaving a 2 point difference for much farther move and charge distance. That's far superior to a 6" range increase strictly on shooting attacks (and the resultant 3" increase to rapid fire range). It does have some downside, but all in all if it's worth 2, a 6" range increase couldn't be worth more than 1.

So, all in all a Fire Warrior's weapon, as compared to a bolter, is only about 3 points more valuable. To compare:

Battle Sister costs 2 more, but gets:
2 points worth save invul save and powers
3 points worth of baseline stats
pistol and grenades- hard to price, but probably around 1 or 2
3+ save, anywhere from 2-6 points, arguably
for 6-11 points of advantage

A CSM costs 3 points more:
8 points of baseline stats
pistol and grenades- again, probably about 1 or 2
3+ save, 2-6 I would say
for 11-16 points of advantage

a Fire Warrior costs as much as a Fire Warrior:
3 points worth of better gun.
for 3 points of advantage

I just don't see anything to support "+1BS making Fire Warriors worth a Space Marine" even if you thought +1BS was worth 3 points, which would bring a Fire Warrior into costing the same as a Chaos Marine, you could still take it without changing the actual cost of the base model and it would just then be equal to the adjusted value of a Battle Sister at bare minimum. Yes you could glance AV 11. Good thing a lot of things don't have AV 11 facing forwards. Yes you could kill more marines, who all are in rhinos or drop pods or whatever anyway, and coming at you very quickly. It's no where near unbalanced. Let alone all of the arguments I just put worth were virtually all rounded and ball-parked downwards, some quite heavily. I think a balanced Fire Warrior would, in all likelihood, be looking at pistol+grenade and costing 8, or +1BS and costing 10. Probably with a little special rule to give it a bit more oomph, related to markerlights of sergeants.


Scout Sergeant Mkoll

8pts/10pts? Are you absolutely out of your mind? A Hormagaunt/Ork boy costs less than that and at those points values would stand absolutely no chance whatsoever of making it into combat even with almost half again as many models. A Hellion is twice your first price, and they'd be shot down like flies too. It's all well and good trying to work out the cost of +1BS, but unfortunately the days when GW actually had a costing system instead of pulling numbers out of their arse are long gone.

Furthermore, the cost is not going to be consistent because, as the 4th edition Tyranid codex showed, when BS increases so should the cost of the weapon. Especially when that weapon has as many advantages over other races as the pulse rifle does. Yes, I'm aware that the 4th ed 'Nid codex is quite outdated, but it's the most recent example I can think of where BS could be boosted and prices changed. This is because when the BS goes up so does the effectiveness of the weapon, quite dramatically.

When you're toting the best weapon in the game, that means you pay for it. I've made the same argument that Black Knights are undercosted and other units too, I'm not just picking on Tau here, but when you can sit and shoot down your enemies with impunity and no fear of retaliation for at least a turn as your opponents move into position you really do need to be paying through the nose for a BS increase, even if it is only +1.
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May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

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