[Tau Empire] Seeker Missile Fired at Fliers rules clarification

[Unusual Suspect]

My argument:

1. Shaken, Stunned, and Hard to Hit (shooting at fliers) all force the shooting unit to make Snap Shots. (BRB)

2. Snap Shots are always fired at BS 1. (BRB)

3. Ordinarily, vehicles cannot fire Seeker Missiles on their own. (Tau Empire, pg 31)

4. When a Markerlight token is expended, it can allow a vehicle to fire a single Seeker Missile. (Tau Empire, pg 31)

5. The Tau Empire FAQ has this entry:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example), do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (p29)
A: Ballistic Skill 5.

note that Shaken and Stunned as states are given explicitly as examples, not as exclusive qualifiers. Any mechanic that reduces a vehicle to Ballistic Skill 1 will fall under the rules jurisdiction of the FAQ entry.

6. Thus, when a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 by firing Snap Shots at a flier, its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 5, as per the FAQ entry.


Thought i'd give this its own thread.

[Unusual Suspect]

To continue the discussion from the Tau FAQ update thread, here was my response.

It does say in the tau codex that the vehicle does not count as firing the seeker, that it is lauched by an automated system on request by the Marking unit. This why seekers do not count towards the number of weapons fired, and why seekers can be launched even if the vehicle its stunned or shaken.

It says in the Tau codex the vehicle is Ordinarily not allowed to fire the seeker on its own, and yes, that it is launched by an automated system on request by a Markerlight user.  Turning to the Markerlight section, we see a markerlight can allow the vehicle to fire the Seeker - in fact, its the only method that a seeker missile can be fired.

1. Ordinarily, X cannot perform Y.
2.  Z allows X to perform Y.

Z in 2 is providing an event (out of the set of ordinary events) where the restrictions on X no longer apply.

X = The vehicle
Y = Firing a seeker missile
Z = Expending a Markerlight Token

Again, there's a possible interpretation (that contradicts the Markerlight entry, but still) that the Markerlight user is considered the firer of the Seeker Missile.

This leads to a particularly odd situation in which a vehicle will have BS 5 firing Snap Shots if it is the user in question (As per the FAQ entry) but at a BS 1 if someone else expends the Marker (Or, depending on who you interpret the Markerlight user to be, as being BS 1 unless the Markerlight is provided by a Skyray).

I don't know if it does have a dedicated discussion.  All I can say is that you are inferring that because Cause A & B produces Effect C, and because Cause D also causes Effect C, Ruling E regarding Cause A & B also affects Cause D?

This is not RAW, but an intelligent viewing of RAI (and not one I necessarily disagree with on a RAI basis).    We have seen numerous cases where just because 2 similar causes have the affect, GW has not ruled them to be affected the same.

Charistoph, can you provide a more concrete example to go with that logic?

[The Man They Call Jayne]

With regards to the Flyer issue I am sure I read somewhere that the seeker would hit on a 4+. I cannot for the life of me think where though.

[Unusual Suspect]

With regards to the Flyer issue I am sure I read somewhere that the seeker would hit on a 4+. I cannot for the life of me think where though.

Those rules can be found in, if memory serves, Imperial Armour III: The Taros Campaign.

I'm not sure 3rd edition rules should be particularly relevant to the conversation.

Other FAQ answers seem to imply that, in the case of two conflicting absolute values, one should roll off every turn to see which applies.

[InsaneTD]

Codex over-rides rule book, therefore, all seeker missiles are treated as BS5 as the markerlight token is expended to fire it at that value.

[Will's on Fire]

I think this is clever from GW. All those people who laughed at the sky ray as they glued down the hammerhead turret aren't going to be so happy now the sky ray is decent against flyers.

I think I agree with unusual suspect. I think it balances because you have to fire the markerlight as BS1 and therefore you still have to struggle to hit it originally. Whether that logic actually works I don't know, but I think it's kinda cool.

Evade would be so cinematic.

- Will

[InsaneTD]

Just wait until the new Tau Dex and thr Sky Ray get's it's anti air abilities back. 8)

[salamut2202]

I think it works okay, it's not that bad because you still need to snap lazer tag it first. Besides, I was under the impression that sky rays were a variant of hammerhead that was used for defense and anti aircraft fire?

[Charistoph]

To continue the discussion from the Tau FAQ update thread, here was my response.

It does say in the tau codex that the vehicle does not count as firing the seeker, that it is lauched by an automated system on request by the Marking unit. This why seekers do not count towards the number of weapons fired, and why seekers can be launched even if the vehicle its stunned or shaken.

It says in the Tau codex the vehicle is Ordinarily not allowed to fire the seeker on its own, and yes, that it is launched by an automated system on request by a Markerlight user.  Turning to the Markerlight section, we see a markerlight can allow the vehicle to fire the Seeker - in fact, its the only method that a seeker missile can be fired.

1. Ordinarily, X cannot perform Y.
2.  Z allows X to perform Y.

Z in 2 is providing an event (out of the set of ordinary events) where the restrictions on X no longer apply.

X = The vehicle
Y = Firing a seeker missile
Z = Expending a Markerlight Token

Again, there's a possible interpretation (that contradicts the Markerlight entry, but still) that the Markerlight user is considered the firer of the Seeker Missile.

This leads to a particularly odd situation in which a vehicle will have BS 5 firing Snap Shots if it is the user in question (As per the FAQ entry) but at a BS 1 if someone else expends the Marker (Or, depending on who you interpret the Markerlight user to be, as being BS 1 unless the Markerlight is provided by a Skyray).

I don't know if it does have a dedicated discussion.  All I can say is that you are inferring that because Cause A & B produces Effect C, and because Cause D also causes Effect C, Ruling E regarding Cause A & B also affects Cause D?

This is not RAW, but an intelligent viewing of RAI (and not one I necessarily disagree with on a RAI basis).    We have seen numerous cases where just because 2 similar causes have the affect, GW has not ruled them to be affected the same.

Charistoph, can you provide a more concrete example to go with that logic?

Your sequencing is off, I think.

Sequence:

• Marker Light hits unit.
• Marker Light Token is applied.
• Marker Light Token is used by an appropriate user.
• Marker Light Token's use is called as Launching a Seeker Missile.
• Seeker Missile makes its attack from a properly equipped unit at BS 5.

That's the normal sequence. 

Where we run in to trouble is that both the Seeker Missile Attack and the Snap Shot are both set values.  While Shaking and Stunning both create the same set value as shooting a Flying unit, one is caused by a temporary condition on the launching platform (which is never considered for the Seeker Missile launch), while the other is caused by the condition of the target. 

Since the launching platform's BS is never used, it's condition (other than not Wrecked) means little in this equation.  The BS used is by the conditions of the Marker Light rule.  Effectively, the Marker Light is the one "shooting" the Seeker.  Therefore, the ruling about a vehicle's status is moo point, and the situation of competing set values stands.

Now, the correct argument is that the Seeker fires "...on all occasions at Ballistic Skill 5."  The phrase, "on all occasions", seems to indicate Snap Fire situations as well, but again, this is a situation of set value competitions with a codex written under a very different general ruleset.

[Unusual Suspect]

Your sequencing is off, I think.

Sequence:

• Marker Light hits unit.
• Marker Light Token is applied.
• Marker Light Token is used by an appropriate user.
• Marker Light Token's use is called as Launching a Seeker Missile.
• Seeker Missile makes its attack from a properly equipped unit at BS 5.

That's the normal sequence.

An interesting sequence, and a change of wording.

My own take, with language that matches that found in the Codex itself:

• Marker Light hits unit.
• Marker Light Token is applied.
• Marker Light Token is used by an appropriate user.
• Marker Light Token's use allows a vehicle to fire an equipped Seeker Missile.
• The vehicle fires the Seeker Missile at BS 5, with the exceptions regarding the normal shooting rules listed in the Seeker Missile entry.

The Markerlight entry says nothing about launching a missile, it explicitly mentions the vehicle is allowed to fire.  Missile Launching is not a mechanic in WH40k, Firing is, and so is the firing unit.  There are unusual qualities to that firing action, as listed in both the Seeker Missile and Markerlight entries.  It always fires at a BS of 5, it ignores intervening cover, it is fired outside the normal restrictions on how many weapons can fire and at what Ballistic skill, and even outside the normal shooting order, etc.  It is as stated by the text, however, a weapon fired by the vehicle, barring some so-far-unseen text contradicting that.

Where we run in to trouble is that both the Seeker Missile Attack and the Snap Shot are both set values.  While Shaking and Stunning both create the same set value as shooting a Flying unit, one is caused by a temporary condition on the launching platform (which is never considered for the Seeker Missile launch), while the other is caused by the condition of the target. 

Under my interpretation that the vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile, we do not run into that issue, as the FAQ's answer takes precedence over the normal methods of resolving two different set values (as explained in the FAQ entries regarding wargear/special rules that set initiatives at 1 and 10).

Again, the FAQ only uses the Shaken and Stunned qualifiers as examples of the condition "Firing at BS of 1".  So long as the vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile (which the text states it is allowed to due on the expenditure of the Markerlight token) and the vehicle is reduced to BS 1 (Shooting at a flier without the Skyfire rule forcing Snap Shots qualifies), the FAQ entry stands as applicable.  Nowhere in the text of the FAQ does it talk about what is causing the condition of "reduced to Ballistic Skill 1."  The mere existence of that condition is sufficient to apply the FAQ entry.

Since the launching platform's BS is never used, it's condition (other than not Wrecked) means little in this equation.  The BS used is by the conditions of the Marker Light rule.  Effectively, the Marker Light is the one "shooting" the Seeker.  Therefore, the ruling about a vehicle's status is moo point, and the situation of competing set values stands.

The Markerlight is not the entity firing the weapon.  It is allowing the weapon to be fired, that is, it is removing an obstacle that until then prevented the weapon from being fired.  Fired by what?  By the vehicle.  The text is explicit.

The launching platform's BS is similarly irrelevant to the cases of Shaken and Stunned, in that it is the Ballistic Skill being set to 1, not the qualities of being temporarily or otherwise unable to shoot at a normal BS, that forms the basis of the FAQ entry.

Now, the correct argument is that the Seeker fires "...on all occasions at Ballistic Skill 5."  The phrase, "on all occasions", seems to indicate Snap Fire situations as well, but again, this is a situation of set value competitions with a codex written under a very different general ruleset.

I'm wary of that as well.  I'd rather stick to my argument, in that it has the weight of text and FAQ behind it. 






An analogy to hopefully make my point a bit more clear.

Ordinarily, I cannot lick my elbow. A surgeon using Surgery would allow me to lick my elbow. How does this imply Surgery (or the surgeon) is licking my elbow, or that my elbow is licking itself? I'm still the one licking my elbow, even though I ordinarily cannot do so on my own. Surgery is the mechanism by which I am allowed to lick my elbow, and its still I who is doing the licking.

Ordinarily, a vehicle cannot fire its own seeker missiles. A Firing Unit expending a Markerlight counter allows a vehicle to fire a single Seeker Missile. How does this imply the Markerlight (or the Firing Unit) is firing the Seeker Missile, or that the Seeker Missile is firing itself? The vehicle is the one firing the seeker missile, even though it ordinarilly cannot do so on its own. Markerlight counters are the mechanism by which a vehicle is allowed to fire a seeker missile, and it still the seeker missile doing the firing.

[Charistoph]

Where we run in to trouble is that both the Seeker Missile Attack and the Snap Shot are both set values.  While Shaking and Stunning both create the same set value as shooting a Flying unit, one is caused by a temporary condition on the launching platform (which is never considered for the Seeker Missile launch), while the other is caused by the condition of the target. 

Under my interpretation that the vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile, we do not run into that issue, as the FAQ's answer takes precedence over the normal methods of resolving two different set values (as explained in the FAQ entries regarding wargear/special rules that set initiatives at 1 and 10).

Again, the FAQ only uses the Shaken and Stunned qualifiers as examples of the condition "Firing at BS of 1".  So long as the vehicle is firing the Seeker Missile (which the text states it is allowed to due on the expenditure of the Markerlight token) and the vehicle is reduced to BS 1 (Shooting at a flier without the Skyfire rule forcing Snap Shots qualifies), the FAQ entry stands as applicable.  Nowhere in the text of the FAQ does it talk about what is causing the condition of "reduced to Ballistic Skill 1."  The mere existence of that condition is sufficient to apply the FAQ entry.

But the point is that the mounting vehicle's BS is never used and has never been used because it is not the model guiding the munition, so in cases where their BS is reduced or increased, for any reason, is also never applied.

Since the launching platform's BS is never used, it's condition (other than not Wrecked) means little in this equation.  The BS used is by the conditions of the Marker Light rule.  Effectively, the Marker Light is the one "shooting" the Seeker.  Therefore, the ruling about a vehicle's status is moo point, and the situation of competing set values stands.

The Markerlight is not the entity firing the weapon.  It is allowing the weapon to be fired, that is, it is removing an obstacle that until then prevented the weapon from being fired.  Fired by what?  By the vehicle.  The text is explicit.

The launching platform's BS is similarly irrelevant to the cases of Shaken and Stunned, in that it is the Ballistic Skill being set to 1, not the qualities of being temporarily or otherwise unable to shoot at a normal BS, that forms the basis of the FAQ entry.

The Markerlight IS the entity firing the weapon for the purposes of gameplay.  Under what other condition can a Seeker be fired?  Can a Sky Ray unload all 6 Missiles without a single Markerlight token being deployed?  Can a model other than the launching platform be used to initiate the Seeker's 'firing'?  Whose BS do you use to resolve the Seeker Missile's attack?

It is the Markerlight Token and only the Markerlight Token that allows the Seeker to be fired under any conditions.  It is the Markerlight Token that is directing the munition, not the tank.  It is only the BS listed under the Markerlight's rules that is used.  This is why the vehicle's status is never and has never been considered for this.  Therefore, this ruling is a cow's opinion when firing at Flyers, a moo point.

Now, the correct argument is that the Seeker fires "...on all occasions at Ballistic Skill 5."  The phrase, "on all occasions", seems to indicate Snap Fire situations as well, but again, this is a situation of set value competitions with a codex written under a very different general ruleset.

I'm wary of that as well.  I'd rather stick to my argument, in that it has the weight of text and FAQ behind it. 

Of course you do, it's your argument.  I just disagree in how far your interpretation of said FAQ goes.

An analogy to hopefully make my point a bit more clear.

Ordinarily, I cannot lick my elbow. A surgeon using Surgery would allow me to lick my elbow. How does this imply Surgery (or the surgeon) is licking my elbow, or that my elbow is licking itself? I'm still the one licking my elbow, even though I ordinarily cannot do so on my own. Surgery is the mechanism by which I am allowed to lick my elbow, and its still I who is doing the licking.

Ordinarily, a vehicle cannot fire its own seeker missiles. A Firing Unit expending a Markerlight counter allows a vehicle to fire a single Seeker Missile. How does this imply the Markerlight (or the Firing Unit) is firing the Seeker Missile, or that the Seeker Missile is firing itself? The vehicle is the one firing the seeker missile, even though it ordinarilly cannot do so on its own. Markerlight counters are the mechanism by which a vehicle is allowed to fire a seeker missile, and it still the seeker missile doing the firing.

The vehicle launches it, but it has little say in the guiding of it (unless it's declaring the use of the Token, of course).  If it did, the Seeker would HAVE to shoot at the same target and at the same time as any other weapons on the vehicle.  It does not.  The Seeker can be in the second round of firing of the Shooting Phase with it's vehicle being the 5th, or the Seeker can be the last thing fired while its vehicle was the first thing to shoot.  The Seeker can be just as much a part of a Broadside squad's Shooting Phase as a Sky Ray's.  Since we can't Shake or Stun a Broadside, one must assume that they are the one's shooting it.  Except, they actually aren't because it doesn't use their BS at all, either.  The only BS being used is the one provided by the Markerlight rules, that of BS 5. 

Therefore, it is the Markerlight Token that actually "shoots" the Seeker. 

It may be an odd view, I know.  But that is how I see it, and that won't change till the next codex or Amendment.

And, dude, licking your elbow?

[InsaneTD]

You're both arguing with each other about the fact it's BS5. You have both said it's BS 5. The only thing you disagree on is wording and how you both got to the point it's BS5. You do realise how silly that is right?

[Wargamer]

It is worth pointing out that this can easily be solved by precedent.

The only time, in three editions the Seeker has ever been considered part of a vehicle's arsenal is for Weapon Destroyed results. That's it. For every other rule query, the answer has always been that as long as there is a Markerlight token, the Seeker can be launched, and if a Seeker is launched it is resolved at Bs 5.

It does not use the parent vehicle's Bs. It does not use the designator's Bs. It uses Bs 5. It always uses Bs 5. It is not resolved as Snap Fire because Snap Fire applies to units, and the Seeker Missile is not a unit. It is an independent weapon system that hitches a ride on a unit, but resolves its attack independently of said unit.

In short, Seekers don't give a crap whether you're a Flyer or not, or whether the parent vehicle is shaken or stunned. Once a Seeker is airborne, it hits on a 2+. Always. No exceptions. End of.

[Charistoph]

You're both arguing with each other about the fact it's BS5. You have both said it's BS 5. The only thing you disagree on is wording and how you both got to the point it's BS5. You do realise how silly that is right?

The reason why the origination of the BS 5 is important is because it determines how a specific FAQ ruling and the rule of absolute stat modifiers interact. 

Unusual Suspect's position is that it is always at BS 5, no matter what, because the Snap Fire condition placed on a vehicle by Shaken and Stunned results is treated exactly the same as id it was shooting at a Flyer.  Since it ignores that Snap Fire condition (which it always has ignored that cause), it ignores the Snap Fire condition of shooting at a Flyer.

My position is due to the fact that a vehicle's temporay status has never affected a Seeker's ability to fire, the ruling has no bearing because a vehicle's BS was never used to shoot the missile, so a Snap Fire condition on it placed by new circumstances due to the target's condition is a case of matching stat modifiers.

It is worth pointing out that this can easily be solved by precedent.

The only time, in three editions the Seeker has ever been considered part of a vehicle's arsenal is for Weapon Destroyed results. That's it. For every other rule query, the answer has always been that as long as there is a Markerlight token, the Seeker can be launched, and if a Seeker is launched it is resolved at Bs 5.

It does not use the parent vehicle's Bs. It does not use the designator's Bs. It uses Bs 5. It always uses Bs 5. It is not resolved as Snap Fire because Snap Fire applies to units, and the Seeker Missile is not a unit. It is an independent weapon system that hitches a ride on a unit, but resolves its attack independently of said unit.

In short, Seekers don't give a klkn whether you're a Flyer or not, or whether the parent vehicle is shaken or stunned. Once a Seeker is airborne, it hits on a 2+. Always. No exceptions. End of.

Since we are bringing up precedent, Seekers fired from a non-Flyer against a Flyer before 6th Edition (in Apocalypse), specifically the Sky Ray, were resolved at BS 3, not at BS 5.  In which case, the condition of being a Flyer CAN affect the ability for a Seeker to hit.  Admittedly, rules and format have changed since then, and that's part of why we are having this discussion.

[Wargamer]

Yeah... I would give no credit to any source that requires Apocalypse, since Apocalypse is a "make your own rules up as you go" expansion.

Imperial Armour volume 3 has the same ruling, however: the Skyray's markerlights were effectively Skyfire weapons (if upgraded to an AA mount), and Seekers launched hit on a 4+, not 2+.

The hole in this argument, of course, is that there is nothing in the current rules to support that application, because that was a specific exemption from the normal Seeker Missile rules, not an application of the standard rules.