[Tau Empire] Seeker Missile Fired at Fliers rules clarification

[Charistoph]

Before FW started using the 40K stamp, I considered anything Imperial Armor to be Apocalypse, so that's why I didn't specify.

It's just a good idea to be aware of the history of things, even if they have no real time benefit due to a massive rules/perspective change.

Just out of curiousity, does the IA:3 Sky Ray have the 40K stamp at all, or does the codex model have precedence?  (Not a useless question, one has AA built in, while the other has it dropped due to know Flyer plans at codex writing).

[Wargamer]

Imperial Armour 3 predates Apocalypse by many, many years. Forgeworld, at this time, was still operating under the goals of producing collector's models, and just trying to produce rules that would allow you to field them on the tabletop. It was not produced for Apocalypse because nothing like Apocalypse was even close to existing at that point. As such, it was made for 40k. Oh, and I'm also pretty sure IAvol3 predates Codex: Tau Empires.

[Charistoph]

All of which was before my time.  I think I was introduced to the hobby (well, at least enough to start learning about it) was right around or after the release of Codex: Tau Empire, I think.  I remeber Eldar and Dark Angels came out soon after I started looking into it.

Not that any of that has any bearing on the discussion  at hand.

Anyway, even though Apocalypse wasn't around, anything Forgeworld was still treated as if it was by the shop I was visiting.  So that may color my perspective.

[InsaneTD]

IA:3 predates Tau Empires by about 6 months if memory serves. Still irrelevant to this discussion.

You're both arguing with each other about the fact it's BS5. You have both said it's BS 5. The only thing you disagree on is wording and how you both got to the point it's BS5. You do realise how silly that is right?

The reason why the origination of the BS 5 is important is because it determines how a specific FAQ ruling and the rule of absolute stat modifiers interact. 

Unusual Suspect's position is that it is always at BS 5, no matter what, because the Snap Fire condition placed on a vehicle by Shaken and Stunned results is treated exactly the same as id it was shooting at a Flyer.  Since it ignores that Snap Fire condition (which it always has ignored that cause), it ignores the Snap Fire condition of shooting at a Flyer.

My position is due to the fact that a vehicle's temporay status has never affected a Seeker's ability to fire, the ruling has no bearing because a vehicle's BS was never used to shoot the missile, so a Snap Fire condition on it placed by new circumstances due to the target's condition is a case of matching stat modifiers.

Well unless GW has not put it in the current rule book, there is a rules hierchy, Codex over rides BRB, FAQ over Rides Codex. This would mean Seeker Missiles are always fired at BS5 as that is what it's rules state.

Half the time I think most of these 'Frequently' Asked Questions are submitted by but hurt power gamers who are just upset by the fact their favourite unit just got wiped off the board. In my opinoin, this was already clear in the codex.

[Charistoph]

IA:3 predates Tau Empires by about 6 months if memory serves. Still irrelevant to this discussion.

In terms of a final definitive answer, most definitely.  The Rule changes caused by 6th Edition it allows it to be ignored for the purposes of a final ruling on  this discussion.  IA:3 is only brought up as presenting a past review of Seeker rules.  Nothing more.

You're both arguing with each other about the fact it's BS5. You have both said it's BS 5. The only thing you disagree on is wording and how you both got to the point it's BS5. You do realise how silly that is right?

The reason why the origination of the BS 5 is important is because it determines how a specific FAQ ruling and the rule of absolute stat modifiers interact. 

Unusual Suspect's position is that it is always at BS 5, no matter what, because the Snap Fire condition placed on a vehicle by Shaken and Stunned results is treated exactly the same as id it was shooting at a Flyer.  Since it ignores that Snap Fire condition (which it always has ignored that cause), it ignores the Snap Fire condition of shooting at a Flyer.

My position is due to the fact that a vehicle's temporay status has never affected a Seeker's ability to fire, the ruling has no bearing because a vehicle's BS was never used to shoot the missile, so a Snap Fire condition on it placed by new circumstances due to the target's condition is a case of matching stat modifiers.

Well unless GW has not put it in the current rule book, there is a rules hierchy, Codex over rides BRB, FAQ over Rides Codex. This would mean Seeker Missiles are always fired at BS5 as that is what it's rules state.

Interesting view on it.   You're saying that because the Codex says, "...on all occasions", that's the final word on it because Codex rules trump the BRB rules, at least until an Amendment/FAQ says otherwise.  A worthy argument.

Interestingly enough, I asked one of my LGS TOs about the basics of this discussion, and he said he would rule in favor of the BRB, due to the codex' age.  I don't agree, personally, but he's a bit more generalist when it comes to Tau knowledge.

Half the time I think most of these 'Frequently' Asked Questions are submitted by but hurt power gamers who are just upset by the fact their favourite unit just got wiped off the board. In my opinoin, this was already clear in the codex.

It may be sad in just how right you are.



Could I get an agreement, though, in saying that a new codex is most desired, even needed, due to its age and design format?

[InsaneTD]

Sadly yes. While most things are perfectly servable. A few minor and a couple major changes have happened to the glossary of the BRB, and that was just the change from fourth to fifth. The change from fifth to sixth is incredible and means a simple FAQ isn't really enough. Especially as most of the FAQ entries are hold overs from fifth. But we will have to wait. DA, Warriors of Chaos (Look at the starter set, it doesn't look like CSM anymore) SM and then another Xeno's race is the likely order of release. Making us about one and a half, two years away unless the skip the normally Imp/xenos release cycle.

[Charistoph]

Why another Xeno?

Tau is rumored for early 2013, and is the oldest Xeno codex (second oldest over all).  The only other Xeno race even mentioned in rumor is Eldar, and that's for Fall 2013.

But they are only rumors.  Casket of salt, probably not true, tell everyone you know...

[InsaneTD]

Look at what they have done to other Xeno races in the past. Both Crons and DE both took two editions to be updated. Must admit they have treated Imp armies worse, Sisters anyone?

So we all agree Seekers are BS5 against flyers, even if we can't fully agree on why. Still, I wish we had a proper AA weapon in our book.

[Charistoph]

Look at what they have done to other Xeno races in the past. Both Crons and DE both took two editions to be updated. Must admit they have treated Imp armies worse, Sisters anyone?

Orks and Tau had a 3rd and 4th.
Eldar had a 3rd, an Expansion (Craftworld), and 4th.
Tyranids had a 3rd, 4th, AND 5th.

So, yeah, I don't follow that reasoning.

[InsaneTD]

I though both Orks and Eldar both had 5th codex?

[The Man They Call Jayne]

I thought the Eldar one was more of a 4.5 edition Codex.

[Charistoph]

I though both Orks and Eldar both had 5th codex?

Nope, Eldar was the first Xeno codex after Tau, Orks was the last Xeno of 4th.  Codex: Space Marines was the first of 5th.

I thought the Eldar one was more of a 4.5 edition Codex.

Well, yeah.  That whole Blue Period can go to the Warp and stay there.  Not even Nurgle wants it.  I do like the smoothness of the layout that has continued to today, but the parseness of options can suck it.

[Enderwiggin]

Eldar were pretty squarely 4.0 with overtures of what would be 5th edition standard stylings.

Orks are generally regarded as the true first 4.5 codex though, since GW knew their new direction and were designing with the newer edition (less than a year down the road) in mind. Orks released in January of 2008, while 5th was released only a little later that year in July. Playtesting for both would have been nearly impossible to have been done independently due to GW's past codex/edition work examples.

Eldar though, were released years before this. Back in 2006. I sympathized with them for losing their Craftworlds, but I did relish not seeing Saim Hann spam for a little while (until Apoc returned some old school army examples).

[Charistoph]

Eldar were pretty squarely 4.0 with overtures of what would be 5th edition standard stylings.

Orks are generally regarded as the true first 4.5 codex though, since GW knew their new direction and were designing with the newer edition (less than a year down the road) in mind. Orks released in January of 2008, while 5th was released only a little later that year in July. Playtesting for both would have been nearly impossible to have been done independently due to GW's past codex/edition work examples.

Eldar though, were released years before this. Back in 2006. I sympathized with them for losing their Craftworlds, but I did relish not seeing Saim Hann spam for a little while (until Apoc returned some old school army examples).

4.5 isn't anything official, so it can mean whatever you want.  For me, it started with the first codex after Tau Empire that consilidated army list design and got rid of the ad hoc armoury, and when the codecies started being simplified with 'Less Is More'.  So that puts Eldar and Dak Angels at the beginning, and Orks and Daemons at the end.

[Enderwiggin]

I'm not going to argue the finer points, but I do believe that considering 5/7 of the 4th edition codices as "4.5" is a bit short-sighted to the changes GW gradually brought around. Especially given the amount of rules changes that the design team cited as issues from 3rd solved in 4th, which were ignored going back to 5th in some ways.   

Your idea on what constitutes 4.5 codices would essentially leave just Black Templars as the only "true"/originally designed 4th edition codex in the entirety of 4th edition since the Tau 4th is merely a slightly updated 3rd edition codex.