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Opinions about Dark Angels

Started by crisis_vyper, January 14, 2013, 01:02:54 AM

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Arguleon-veq

With regards to if the are going to be a top tier army, my mate was telling me yesterday that his wraithwing list [usual build and that he had just got top 3 at one of the biggest tournies of the year with] got tabled 3 games in a row against Ravenwing last week. He was facing something along these lines;

Sammeal;
Ravenwing Command; FnP, Dakka Banner
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
6 Black Knights; 2 Grenade Launchers
Darkshroud;

1850 Points

Now the guy using it is one of the best 40K players in the UK but I was still thinking 'Ah thats not too bad'. Then I started to think about it, and it really is.

You have 12 scoring as the attack bikes have to split from the parent units. They all go into reserve and outflank, the speed and having multi meltas make them a huge threat to armour when they arrive [and you should get 4 in turn 2], so theres the barges dead or your manticore etc. You would think the command squad is easy enough to get rid of but thanks to scout if they arent going first they can hid fairly easily and if they are they simply turbo boost back and forth across the back of your lines always ending up within 6'' of the darkshroud for a 2+ cover save, plus you have to get through sammael before you get to the actual command squad anyway.

The mobility of the bikes lets them move to the banner and they put out 96 twin linked bolt shots. The pair of grenades on the black knights means you should get at least 1 hit so you are reducing your main targets toughness.

That 50 man guard horde? dead in a single turn. 6 wraiths led by a tooled up destroyer lord, dead in 1 turn. The black knights plasma also act as a nice little bit of anti flyer but they dont need it anyway as they have 12 different scoring units.

Got an army you think can outrange it early game? it cant because of the 36'' effective range on those bolters coupled with scout.

I ran the numbers on it going first againt THE wraithwing build which people are screaming cheese at because its winning virtually every single tournament out there and will make up at least half of the top 10, you have a really big chance of actually flat tabling that build in turn 2 before the necron flyers ever get to hit the table. So that is killing 18 wraiths, 2 destroyer lords and 3 barges, in two turns.

My wolf/guard who have been doing really well against the top necron and daemon builds can kill the banner i f i go first thanks to the manticore, if i dont, i lose my entire horde in 1 turn and so lose the game. Even when this list does lose its power trick in the dakka banner it is still a nightmare because you have to kill 12 scoring units so it can then just simply play the objectives to take the win.
X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

Lord Sotek

#76
Wow.

That is just... Ugly.

How on earth is -anything- supposed to manage against 12 meltaguns, six multimeltas, six twinlinked plasma guns, and the 44 bikes they're zipping around on? Even if you were IG and absolutely maxed out on Hydras and Hellhounds to take advantage of their cover-save denial, you're still dealing with that much T5 3+ armor; I still don't think you could put much of a dent in this.
Quote from: Saulus on March 17, 2011, 06:16:56 PM
Often I hear delusional ramble like "I painted and collected my army as ultramarine tyranid hunters....but Pedro is really good, so now I'm using him, but I'm just going to call him Jimbob-Fistpumper, cause that fits with my

Chicop76

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on February 17, 2013, 12:54:29 PM
With regards to if the are going to be a top tier army, my mate was telling me yesterday that his wraithwing list [usual build and that he had just got top 3 at one of the biggest tournies of the year with] got tabled 3 games in a row against Ravenwing last week. He was facing something along these lines;

Sammeal;
Ravenwing Command; FnP, Dakka Banner
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
6 Black Knights; 2 Grenade Launchers
Darkshroud;

1850 Points

Now the guy using it is one of the best 40K players in the UK but I was still thinking 'Ah thats not too bad'. Then I started to think about it, and it really is.

You have 12 scoring as the attack bikes have to split from the parent units. They all go into reserve and outflank, the speed and having multi meltas make them a huge threat to armour when they arrive [and you should get 4 in turn 2], so theres the barges dead or your manticore etc. You would think the command squad is easy enough to get rid of but thanks to scout if they arent going first they can hid fairly easily and if they are they simply turbo boost back and forth across the back of your lines always ending up within 6'' of the darkshroud for a 2+ cover save, plus you have to get through sammael before you get to the actual command squad anyway.

The mobility of the bikes lets them move to the banner and they put out 96 twin linked bolt shots. The pair of grenades on the black knights means you should get at least 1 hit so you are reducing your main targets toughness.

That 50 man guard horde? dead in a single turn. 6 wraiths led by a tooled up destroyer lord, dead in 1 turn. The black knights plasma also act as a nice little bit of anti flyer but they dont need it anyway as they have 12 different scoring units.

Got an army you think can outrange it early game? it cant because of the 36'' effective range on those bolters coupled with scout.

I ran the numbers on it going first againt THE wraithwing build which people are screaming cheese at because its winning virtually every single tournament out there and will make up at least half of the top 10, you have a really big chance of actually flat tabling that build in turn 2 before the necron flyers ever get to hit the table. So that is killing 18 wraiths, 2 destroyer lords and 3 barges, in two turns.

My wolf/guard who have been doing really well against the top necron and daemon builds can kill the banner i f i go first thanks to the manticore, if i dont, i lose my entire horde in 1 turn and so lose the game. Even when this list does lose its power trick in the dakka banner it is still a nightmare because you have to kill 12 scoring units so it can then just simply play the objectives to take the win.

This is why I haven't played a game since that book came out. Chaos Marines is not that bad, but Dark Angels devoured a nice helping of wtf.


crisis_vyper

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on February 17, 2013, 12:54:29 PM
Sammeal;
Ravenwing Command; FnP, Dakka Banner
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
4 Bikes; 2 Melta - Attack Bike with Multi Melta
6 Black Knights; 2 Grenade Launchers
Darkshroud;

My list is slightly different than this for this point level as I use some Land speeder typhoons, a Librarian and a second Darkshroud instead of the Black knights and Command Squad.

The Librarian is my go to Warlord as I have more flexibility with my Warlord traits as compared with choosing Sammael as my Warlord. The preferred Warlord trait for my Ravenwing is the the Strategic Trait as I can take advantage of every trait there. In addition, I will be able to get some helpful psychic powers that will help with some psychic shenanigans and also gain some psychic defense for my army.

The second darkshroud allows me to have more freedom of movement as my Stealth bubble have just increased and if  one of them went down, the other will take its place. The Land Speeder Typhoons will provide me with some long-ranged firepower with some anti-infantry blast template and also to block line of sight towards the Darkshroud. In return the Typhoons also get the stealth rule and have some fun of their own.

To bulk it up to 2k, I will put in either the command squad or some black knights and I call it good. Typhoon launchers + rad Grenades = fun times. If I can get the Divination power that allows me to ignore cover saves, I am set for that game.

Waaaghpower

I want to play against this. It looks like it might be fun.
Yes, it's OP and spammy, but I can still see some weaknesses. It has a lot of shots and is really fast, any vehicles near it are going to blow up pretty quickly. But on the other shoe, melta shots aren't worth jack against a horde and they still can't get through cover any better than a pistol. Plasma cannons would work with their blast, but not just guns. Bolter shots would be the only anti-horde ranged weapon, and frankly... meh.
So, they kill hordes in close combat. But if the hordes are strong enough to fight back... The moment you are tarpitted for even one turn, the advantage of the marines is lost. They lose their mobility. And (personally,) if you get within assault range of one of my units, everybody will be assaulting you momentarily.

It's still a very powerful list, especially good against mek armies or heavily armored units, I'm just saying that it is vulnerable to certain things.
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Lord Sotek

Quote from: Waaaghpower on February 18, 2013, 11:58:52 PM

It's still a very powerful list, especially good against mek armies or heavily armored units, I'm just saying that it is vulnerable to certain things.

Hmm.... What odds would you put on a Shoota-Loota Horde versus this list?
Quote from: Saulus on March 17, 2011, 06:16:56 PM
Often I hear delusional ramble like "I painted and collected my army as ultramarine tyranid hunters....but Pedro is really good, so now I'm using him, but I'm just going to call him Jimbob-Fistpumper, cause that fits with my

Chicop76

Quote from: Waaaghpower on February 18, 2013, 11:58:52 PM
I want to play against this. It looks like it might be fun.
Yes, it's OP and spammy, but I can still see some weaknesses. It has a lot of shots and is really fast, any vehicles near it are going to blow up pretty quickly. But on the other shoe, melta shots aren't worth jack against a horde and they still can't get through cover any better than a pistol. Plasma cannons would work with their blast, but not just guns. Bolter shots would be the only anti-horde ranged weapon, and frankly... meh.
So, they kill hordes in close combat. But if the hordes are strong enough to fight back... The moment you are tarpitted for even one turn, the advantage of the marines is lost. They lose their mobility. And (personally,) if you get within assault range of one of my units, everybody will be assaulting you momentarily.

It's still a very powerful list, especially good against mek armies or heavily armored units, I'm just saying that it is vulnerable to certain things.

Just remember he can make your orks toughness 3 and bikes 4, so bolter fire would be wounding your orks on 3s.


Wargamer

Quote from: Chicop76 on February 19, 2013, 03:25:17 AM
Just remember he can make your orks toughness 3 and bikes 4, so bolter fire would be wounding your orks on 3s.
He has to be within 12" to do that. Being within 12" of a horde combat army is probably not what your typical Ravenwing player wants to happen...
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Arguleon-veq

Hordes aren't the way to beat this list. Its at its very best against hordes, it can stay out of range of shootas very easily and gun them down. Just the bolter rounds it puts out kills 38 Orks a turn even when they are in cover. It doesn't matter about the black knights getting within 12'' because whatever they are grenading will die.

Its the bolters that are the killer in this list.

I think realistically your looking at this list killing 3 Loota units or a Shoota Horde and a Loota unit a turn. Obviously 3 units of Lootas going first is going to cause issues by killing 2 or 3 bike squads but I that's if all your lootas can draw LOS as you should be deploying first and they have scout. Then you have the added problem of them getting all the late game obj steals and contests with all that scoring.

This list can even forget about shooting up a shoota horde, you can just put all your 96 twin linked bolters (so 32 into each unit) into the lootas. The 6 black knights then drop the toughness of a shoota horde, shoot it then charge it. If your lootas are only 10 strong your looking at losing 3 loota units and 30 shoot boys in a single turn. Which probably means a turn 2 tabling.

X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

Waaaghpower

I'm confused. How are 31 models getting 96 twin linked bolt guns?
Super Mario 3D World is The. Best. Thing.

Chicop76

Quote from: Waaaghpower on February 19, 2013, 12:36:11 PM
I'm confused. How are 31 models getting 96 twin linked bolt guns?

Dakka banner gives them savo 4. That means on bike shoot 4 times with twin linked shots. The banner has an aura effect of either 6" or 12" I do not remember.

I agree wth Argul it can easily gun down hordes. Dealing with the damn things they can easily get within shooting range and than fall back and repeat. For shooting range on bikes should not be underestimated with 12-24 inches of movement which makes the short range meaningless. Throw in scout they can cover 24" by turn one easy and still fire although they can't assault if the decide to use the scout move.

With just 6 bikes I lured an army to one part of the board and turboed to the other side an was ale to kill off stragglers on the other side. A well played bike army is very annoying. In my opinion hit and run is the best way to go and enter combat only when you kited the eney down enough to make sure you would win.

Bikes are weak against high strength, long range, and mobile units. Your shooter or lootas forgot the strength 7 ones would be your best bet, but armour 3+ is still annoying to get through.


Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Ok, having read through the codex in detail I can now give a much better review of things I like and dislike about it.

Like:
The fact that HQ models pay Space Wolf prices for Terminator armour, not SMurf prices. It still works out a little cheaper for company masters given the bonus special rules, but it's nice nonetheless.

Most of the Special Characters are decent. Not overly keen on Azrael's combi-plasma being Blind just because, but new edition, new rules so no major gripe.

Chaplains (Including Interrogator Chaplains) are quite well balanced I feel.

The relics (barring the Mace of Redemption) are decent without being over powered. I can't remember all of what Shroud of Heroes does, but to me it seemed a little overcosted if anything.

Infravisor, porta rack, displacer field, power field generator, conversion field. All fun toys to use and very well balanced. Auspex isn't too bad either. May be some others here that I've missed

There can, finally, be no more bitching about the cost of heavy weapons in Long Fang squads given that Dark Angels get both lascannons and plasma cannons for cheaper, and can include them in their Tacitical Squads for as much as they cost in Devastator squads.

Dislikes:
Azrael's sword is one handed, Ezekiel's is 2 handed but Azrael's is the one with the strength bonus? Makes no sense. Not a power issue, just a common sense one. :P

Ezekiel's Mind Worm powqer is retarded. The only redeeming factor is its short range but that's nothing like enough to balance it, especially given how cheap he is and what it does.

Courage of the lion, combined wtih the fact that everyone's Stubborn is a bit much. An entire army with a 1/54 chance of breaking (assuming Azrael) seems a tad excessive. Especially when you add in ATSKNF so even if they do break it's hardly a major disadvantage for them.

Plasma cannons cost the same as plasma guns. Everywhere. Umm...why??? Plasma cannons are obviously much better and therefore should cost more.

5 strong Land Speeder squadrons seems a bit much to me. I get the idea of it, and I know it'd cost a fair amount, but that many of them wouldn't be that easy to bring down and they could put out an insane amount of firepower while remaining insanely maneouverable.

Flail of the Unforgiven shouldn't be AP3 in my opinion, and Mace of Redemption is undercosted too. Especially as the latter isn't a Specialist Weapon or Unwieldy.

The Darkshroud is more undercosted than I first thought. I wasn't aware that it gave combat res bonuses. Add that in with my previous points and frankly there can be no argument that it should cost more.

Black Knights, given that a plasma gun costs the difference between these guys and normal Ravenwing there can surely be no argument that they're undercosted given everything else they get. (Corvus hammer, 2 combat weapons, Skilled Rider to ignore terrain and improve Jink, twin linking of said plasma etc etc)

Th/SS Terminators are still too cheap to me. Bearing in mind that the Storm Shield doubles the chance of passing an invulnewrable save the additional cost is nothing more than a kop out so that Dark Angels can point to SMurfs and say "at least we pay something".

Standard of Fortitude and Standard of Devastation are simply horrific. I don't see why the third one (the Counter Attack one) even exists as it doesn't even compare. 12" Feel No Pain is just wrong for Marines on so many levels and no army ever needs to be getting 4 shots per Fething model for every unit within 6".

Scouts are too cheap. I get that things tend to get cheaper each edition, but 95pts for 5 Scouts, including Vet Sarge, Camo Cloaks and a Missile Launcher is absurd. Especially by comparison. That's 15pts cheaper than an identical unit for the SMurfs codex. Bit much frankly.

And finally, the fluff. Johnson's hidden away on The Rock? Ok. No mention of him being injured, so what the FETH has he been doing with his time apart from sobbing like a little girl for 10 millenia???

Unfortunately, a lot more downs than ups, though there are more ups than I was expecting to find. Still, if the next codex continues in this vein I sincerely doubt I'll be playing much longer through simple, and complete, inability to compete.
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Arguleon-veq

I don't think there is really a trend as Chaos was pretty weak and out last. I think the DA Codex has the same problems as Vetocks other work, Ogre Kingdoms. Both are interesting with a decent but not totally broken power level....if it wasn't for a few little things.

For Ogres it has to do with core rules allowing monsterous infantry to work best 3 wide so you can put 2 characters in the front rank and if you have a champ the actual unit can't be touched. The obvious way to deal with this would have been to inflate character pricey but instead they are really cheap. Other than that the only other really daft thing is the banner that everyone takes on mournfang, turning them from a good unit into a nigh on unstoppable one.

DA are very similar. The main culprits being grenade launchers and the dakka banner, without these I think we would be looking at a competative army but on the same level as BA an SW. Just two small options that weren't really considered enough. The black knights whilst being a great unit (like mournfang) are pricey and can be dealt with but their grenades make them a whole other threat. The other thing is pretty much ravenwing units in general, they are ok on their own but once you add in darkshrouds etc it gets too much, just like irongut units you add characters to in fantasy.

If DA were comped at tournaments to say; 'no dakka banner, no grenade launchers' there wouldn't be much of a problem. Perhaps let Azreal choose EITHER raven or deathwing to be troops. I've not actually seen a really scary DA list that doesn't include that banner, competative lists sure but nothing too horrible.
X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33