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New Daemons

Started by Arguleon-veq, February 25, 2013, 03:06:14 PM

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Arguleon-veq

Not out yet but they will be in a few days and we have info on them in the new WD. It looks like the expected nerf to flamers and screamers has happened, in the batrep a unit of 6 screamers don't kill a tactical terminator unit, something they would easily do before. Lysander charges a unit of flamers for no damage so their weapon can't be as good anymore.

Seems like they have gone the way of fantasy in that if you want abilities on a unit they have to be joined by a herald, so if you want FnP on plaguebearers you need a herald in there.

There seems a lot of randomness to, you roll every turn to see what effects a warp storm has on your entire army?

That skullcannon thing is S8 large blast but with poor AP.

Soulgrinder can get Skyfire. The new fly things have poison 3+.

Daemon princes are HQ.

Looks like horror units are psykers and mastery level is to do wiith the number of models in the unit.

No Daemonic Assault confirmed. All Daemons CAN Deepstrike but none have to.
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Chicop76

#1
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on February 25, 2013, 03:06:14 PM
Not out yet but they will be in a few days and we have info on them in the new WD. It looks like the expected nerf to flamers and screamers has happened, in the batrep a unit of 6 screamers don't kill a tactical terminator unit, something they would easily do before. Lysander charges a unit of flamers for no damage so their weapon can't be as good anymore.

Seems like they have gone the way of fantasy in that if you want abilities on a unit they have to be joined by a herald, so if you want FnP on plaguebearers you need a herald in there.

There seems a lot of randomness to, you roll every turn to see what effects a warp storm has on your entire army?

That skullcannon thing is S8 large blast but with poor AP.

Soulgrinder can get Skyfire. The new fly things have poison 3+.

Daemon princes are HQ.

Looks like horror units are psykers and mastery level is to do wiith the number of models in the unit.

No Daemonic Assault confirmed. All Daemons CAN Deepstrike but none have to.

Personally I think the deep strike helps your army survive to get across the board. marching to the enemy is a poor tactic against shooty armies. I would like to see how they fare now.

For the screamer and flamers i am glad I didn't go out and buy a bunch of them lol. Anyway making Princes HQ choices hurt me big time, but I can see why. The more I hear the more I think my army comp is destroyed and the more new models I have to buy to make up for it. I have lots of daemons and can do two mno forces, but changing daemon princes into HQ choices will force me to buy more models. If they mess up the army too much I may just quit completely. just waiting and seein how it goes.


Arguleon-veq

#2
Got the Codex today so I will go through most of the options in  the book.

The first thing I will point out that is huge is that there are very few options you can actually buy, its all random gifts, they have 0 results which usually get you a better weapon so its ok if you want those and they are cheap but they are nowhere near as custamisable as they were.

Khorne - +1 S on charge
Tzeentch - Re roll saves of 1 and +3LD for psychic tests
Nurgle - Shrouded and slow and purposeful
Slaanesh - Rending, fleet, +3 to run

All daemons are unstable now, not fearless.

HQ

Kairos; Massive nerf, much needed though. 1 re roll per turn not re rolling all saves for himself and nearby units. Slight point decrease and does know loads of psychic powers and is essentially 2 lvl4 psykers, nowhere near as good as he was though.

Bloodthirster; Usual flying tough guy he has always been. Combat monster.

Lord of Change; Lvl2 Psyker can be Lvl3, can take divination or lore of change. The problem is that you want him flying but the lore of change only has 1 power that can shoot other flyers and thats not good at it whereas divination has none. He is still great for flying around and blowing ground targets away with his powers and he still has a great statline.

Great Unclean One; Lv1 can be upto Lvl3 on plague or biomancy. 6 T7 wounds with shrouded is pretty awesome.

Keeper; Lv1, upto Lvl3, telepathy and excess. Probably too easy to kill to be honest.

Prince; 210 with armour and wings which is a bit much IMO, can be Lvl3 though and take a whole range of lores.

If you take a great daemon, daemon princes of the same allegiance count as HS rather than HQ.

1-4 Heralds as a single slot! but you can only take the one slot for them so 4 max.

Heralds; Super cheap and provide upgrades for their units, eg nurgle can give FnP, Khorne can give rage or hatred, slaanesh move through cover, tzeentch +1S to psychic shooting attacks. You pay for these and each herald can only have 1. Good choices though and you can get decent weapons for them for cheap. Slaanesh and Nurgle heralds can be upto Lvl2, Tzeentch can be Lvl3.

Skulltaker; Still a character smasher and only 100 points.

Tallyman; His tally is noweher near as good.

TROOPS

WAY cheaper. 3 of the 4 options are 9 points each, the other is 10. 10 is the squad starting size.

Bloodletters; Pretty much as they were but way cheaper.

Plaguebearers; Lose 1T and FNP but gain shrouded and defensive grenades and are way cheaper, I think its a good tradeoff for them. 3+ cover in terrain is pretty great and they can get FnP easily from a herald.

Horrors; Massive change. 0-10 are a Lvl1, 10-15 are Lvl2, 16+ Lvl3. They roll on a very shooty lore. I think they will be nice when joined by divination heralds as you should get a turn from 16; 2D6 S6 AP4 Shots, a D6+2S Blast and a D6+5S AP2 beam. Re rolling misses at least thanks to divination. Its very balanced though as psychic defense really shuts them down.

Daemonettes; Fast and dangerous thanks to rending, a steal at 9 points each.

ALL viable, great internal balance.

ELITES

Crushers; Lost their amazing save. Still a great unit for the points cost though IMO. 4 WS5 S6 Power Wep attacks each on the charge. Sure they only have their ward but they have 3 wounds, S8 may cause them issues though. Cost what a terminator is costing these days and they are now fast because they are cav. So faster but easier to kill, a fair trade off IMO.

Flamers; Nerfed, thats not to say they totally suck but they are nothing to what they were. Same cost. You are getting 2 wound jump infantry for fairly  cheap and has a flamer, but it is now pretty much just a flamer not auto wounding on 4's and not ignoring all saves. Probably better against none MEQ armies as you will be wounding better in most cases.

Beasts of Nurgle; Pretty awesome. Super hard to kill and put out decent damage. They also have a fantastic rule called attention seeker where if a frienly unit within 12'' gets charged, you can then charge that unit in their assault phase once they have made the charge as the beasts run in desperate for attention lol. Pretty handy in game too.

Fiends; Pretty much as they were, a handy unit, fast and dangerous.

Again, ALL viable so great internal balance.
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Arguleon-veq

FAST ATTACK

Flesh Hounds; Popular before the WD update and I think they will be again. Best unit in the book IMO.  Can have 20 in a squad, they are beasts that have 3 WS5 S5 attacks on the charge for about the cost of a marine but with an extra wound and to top it off............they scout. Awesome. Plus you can use fantasy chaos hounds which look great as them if you want to do them on the cheap.

Screamers; Same as they were but they exchange all their attacks to do the snazzy lampreys bite, still a good unit but again people will complain because they arent utterly broken like they were. At the end of the day they are fast durable jetbikes that are good in combat and can deal with tanks.

Plague Drones; Not sure what to make of them to be honest. Fast, tough and can put out damage if they upgrade to poison 3+. A good unit but I prefer flesh hounds.

Furies; 6 point jump inf with S4, pretty aweome. Would be a nightmare for fragile gunlines like guard and tau.

Seekers; Super cheap outflanking, speedy cav, a solid choice.

Hellflayer Chariots; Cheap but too easy to kill IMO.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Soul Grinder; Great in combat, great armour, great shooting and it gives you an anti air gun [your only anti air gun] for free. 3 S7 skyfire shots. CSM players will wish they had these. Only 165 with what is essentially a battlecannon.

Skullcannon; I quite like them. Decent AV12 chariot and its gun is BS5 S8 large blast, it has poor AP but it does ignore cover which is really nice against hordes.

Burning Chariot; I want to like them. Its a fast skimmer with 3 HP and it has essentially D3 short ranged lascannon shots and a baleflamer but its just so easy to kill. Maybe reserve them and deepstrike them in so they get to alphastrike? lascannoning back armour or burning down marines.

Calvacade; 3 chariots for 120 points isnt bad and they are fast. Not sure what to make of them I will wait till I try them or see them in action before I make a judgement on them. I think when you compare them to things like sentinals etc they are pretty good.

I think almost all options in the book are pretty useable which makes the book pretty fun IMO. Nothing seems utterly broken but everything is decent. In all pretty much everything got cheaper due to losing eternal warrior and fearless but I think that balances well.
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Arguleon-veq

SAMPLE LIST - 1850

[Mixed god, using a bit of everything]

Lvl3 Lord of Change OR a Bloodthirster

20 Horrors
Lvl3 Tzeentch Herald with Divination and +1 S to his units shooting attacks.

20 Plaguebearers
Herald of Nurgle with FnP Locus and a lesser gift [for a better weapon]

12 Daemonettes
12 Bloodletters

15 Flesh Hounds
15 Flesh Hounds


Soul Grinder with Phglem
Soul Grinder with Phglem
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Chicop76

3 more days to get my book in hand. Anyway I see my army list is going to change very much.

1. May or may not buy more horrors. Deny the witch is not big since most units need a 6. If squad is big enough deny would work on a 5. I see that aegis will be a problem now which makes sense.

2. Fateweaver getting nerfed is no biggy, but I would like to see the Lord of Change being useful without spending up to the cost of Fateweaver. I use LOC anyway in the past.

3. Seems like heralds are nicer now.

4. Bloodthirster smash will go back in my list again.

The big thing though is I have to read the codex. I can still get by without buying more daemons, but may have to buy more if I want them to be able to win.

I am kinda glad about the change which would get people of the band wagon. I think nerving screamers and flamers should had been done in the white dwarf update. I think the update like 3-4 months ago should had reflected what was in the book now. I'm glad I didn't go around buying more screamers and flamers.

I think what I like is that I can run 5MCs with a decent amount of troops now. The codex comes off like tyranids which I do not mind.


Chicop76

#6
Hello! As you all know Daemon players have received a new codex. I have read a lot of negative traffic on the book. This post will focus in depth on the new codex. As of now I do not have the codex which I will pick up tommorrow. Therefore I can only go by what other people has said about the Daemons so far.

I hear people say this is the new horde army. While you can easily field over 100 models I wouldn't really call this a horde army. A good example is for 1200 points you can field 120 Daemonettes easy. Looking at what is said about the model the reduced cost will allow you to throw out roughly almost double the amount as before.

I would like to go into a lot of detail, but I want to wait till I get the book. From what I read the army dynamic has been revamped. I hear the codex is worst, but again I want to wait till I get the new codex.

I do know this however my old list has been destroyed. Not really mad on the flamer nerf. Personally I think it's still a very good unit. However I think going to the update extreme than making them worst than the original is a bit much.

I'm glad that daemons didn't get the sister's treatment. The cool part is the army can be very heav y psyker orientated. For example from troops and hq you can hbave 11 psyker units easy.


DEF Knight

I've glanced at it a couple of times so far. It's so incredibly different than the old book, and all of it's mechanics are so unique and layered in their application, that I'm still having some trouble taking it all in. I'd say Khorne came out a bit the worse for wear and Tzeentch got hosed, but that's not worth much because there's probably around a couple hundred different things I'm not thinking about or taking into consideration.

Again though, thew fact that I can't really give any considered opinions at this point is somethign I really like. It seems like a deep codex, really deep. I'm definately liking what I'm seeing out of Daemons, and out of 6th in general.

Arguleon-veq

Merged the topics as they are about exactly the same thing, not sure why a new one was started.

I wouldnt say this codex is any deeper or more layered than any others to be honest, I think all that it really has that others dont is the whole locus ability from heralds. It is badly designed though so there are huge amounts of page flicking if you want to know all about a specific unit, this makes it seem more complex than it is but they only do that to try and make pirating harder, not that it works.

It is a fun and balanced book though IMO. Although I think three soul grinders 30 scoring plague bearers and 60 flesh hounds is pretty brutal.

Yeah you can be very psyker heavy, I worked out a Tzeentch listwith 27 psyker levels in it at 1850.
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DEF Knight

Well I do maintain it's somewhat more layered-

Most units are designed quite asymmetrically and have fairly distinct abilities, and depending on god, each daemon get different basic bonuses on top of that.

These affect weapon choices, as there's one pool of weapons with some god-specific variation to choose from, so different models will have more or less use for those weapons. However, those weapons can, at least sometimes, influence the whole squad in subtle ways.

Most gifts affect the whole squad.

The Loci all affect the whole squad.

Most Psykers have access to powers that affect the whole squad. Most squads can get Psykers


It seems to me that there's generally 4 different force multipliers or more available to most units, and your units have access to multiple occurrences of those force multipliers.


so I get a unit of Daemonettes. In addition to the regular icons or whatever I can take gifts or weapons or both on my sergeant, which can potentially unlock radically new abilities or bonuses to the whole squad. Then I can either take a special character herald, who's special abilities are designed around supporting your units, or more standard heralds, who have access to Loci, buffing the whole squad yet again, more gifts or weapons, again more potential force multipliers, and psychic powers, all of which provide bonuses to the squad. Finally there's two over-arching issues of: or the top tier items there's a limited pool of them for your army, so you need to decide how they're spread out, and the warp storm goes off every turn, this needs to be kept in mind (armour, for instance, has greater value than at first glance because your invul can suddenly take a hit)

That's a lot of decisions to make for a single squad. There's a lot more there than "get squad x. pick a special weapon or two. pick a special power/wargear or two. maybe get a special character buff"




aside from that does anyone have any input on the Tzeentch psychic powers? I'm having trouble making up my mind on them.

Arguleon-veq

I think your looking too much into it.

Its no different to usual squads being joined by characters with special rules. As most special rules are passed on to a squad now its not too different to the locus abilities.

Its just unit with mark x have x special rule, but thats no different to grey hunters having counter attack and death company having furious charge. Different special rules for different units. They then get characters who add special abilities to the squad but thats no different to say a character giving his squad stealth or preferred enemy. The weapons are just weapons and almost all the gifts just effect the model its taken on like usual equipment. Then psychic powers effecting squads are just the same as any character with a pyschic power casting blessings. In the end its just the usual stuff with different names. Once you get used to the different names and know what each result is on the tables its pretty standard, its just a case of having to learn new tables.

I quite like the Tzeentch powers its a damage lore but at least its better than pyromancy. I just wish some of the higher strength spells were not blast or beam so that the Lord of Change was more viable as an anti air option. I think the lore of change comes into its own when you can throw a huge amount of power levels at it. Then doing each spell once or if the target isnt great for one of the powers you can boost the first.

I think its one of the most fun books ive seen in a while and the kind of book that you could pick almost anything out of it and still have a half decent army.
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Chicop76

Finally got the book and went through the whole thing. Doing a review is rather hard to do since it's a lot of stuff, etc.

I would say it seems Nurgle stole the Tzeentch love. Nurge have a lot of goodies.

Another problem is that the book is heavy into mitigation and combos. Overall I would say this is a much better book than the last one. I am still going through the book, but you can do much more and do more. The overpowered stuff from last book has received nerfs. I just want to say though army wide the army as a whole has been buffed more than nerfed.

I think I will do this by section. Also army wide special rules I will mention first. I think later on I may go into each god faction and lay out. This codex is like orcs, necrons, and chaos space marines thrown into one book. I would have to say that this army require more smarts to play. Also as a side note this army at game start can take a long time. This army may require note taking skills. Any here is my review.

Well first you have to pick Alignment or it is already done.
Khorne: Furious Charge
Tzeentch: re-roll 1s, +3 psychic leadership
Nurgle: shrouded, s&p, d grenades
Slaanesh: rending and good running/ flatout

I left out the hatred since I am focusing more on all 40k armies instead of army specfic like Greyknights, which I may mention the knights. Anyway I do not want to give too much since that is why you should go buy the book. Also I just listed general info which like Khorne have more details which I left out. Looking at this so far it is much worst than from last edition. Although the cost of some models have been cut in 1/2 and gear more and makes up for what they used to be. Hopefully you will see the big picture after the review.

Warlord Traits:
1. Instant Death
2. Hatred
3. -1 on fear
4. Re roll instability
5 re roll warp storm
6. No scatter

I would say 4-5 is really helpful. 4 allows you to reduce the damage you going to take if you lose combat. Re rolling warp storm is a big help, it allows you to get more favorable options. The no scatter if you choose to dep strike is a very nice option

Daemonic Instability:

It only matters if you lose in combat. If you lose in combat you may take additinal wounds. However there is a chance for your models to get back up similiar to necrons. However do not expect this to happen very often and on the flip side you have equal chance in losing your whole unit. That being said you have to lose combat and roll rather bad for you to lose your whole unit, or get them back. This is where immortal comander really comes in handy. I feel that this will hit Tzeentch harder than the others which will be probably be winning combat more than losing. This is why you have to concider if Nurgle for example is worth taking over Slaanech or Khorne.

Warp Storm Table:
1. Daemonic Insability test army wide. This one will hurt you hard possibly. This is where your heralds come in and cut down on you losing a lot of models. Leadership 7 is for all your troops and 7 is average rolling which means 50% of your army at this leadership can fall pray to Insability.  Your hearld only have leadership 8, but it helps you on passing and losing less models army wide. You have to roll really bad to get this, but you have things to change this or cut down on the chances of you rolling this.

2. Instead of all your units you just have to make instability on a random character. The good part is your characters have a high leadership. Also for it to die you would have to roll reallly, really bad. It can happen, but you may lose Fateweaver for example 1 out of 500 games. It's bad but not like one bad.


3. All daemons get -1 invulnerable saves. On the bright side the Avatar or Khaine will have a -5 invul save, while on the down side yur whole army will have a +6 invulnerable save.

4. Nothing happens

5-8. God specific negatives. I like to mention some can kill your guys and nearby marines as well. On the bright side you have things to re roll or negate this. I would say this is a poor reason to go mono since it is very easy to negate this.

9. +1 to invul saves army wide. Bad side is that the Avatar of Khorne will now have a +3 invulnerable. Finally something positive though.

10. Random enemy psyker dies and you get a free herald. With this codex not a bad ideal to bring extra heralds and models.

11. You can possibly bring 15 models of your choice from the 4 troop options. If you can do this often you can bring on more daemons.

As you can see their or more negatives than positives. After going through the book however it is down to balance out the op items in the book. This book does have some op moments. This table does not come in to play if daemons is taken as allies to another army. Also it only happens every turn on your shooting phase.



At this point I will cover the HQ options. I figured to talk about gear with the unit itself instead of doing it seperately. I just will briefly mention said gear instead of going into detail multiple times.


Chicop76

#12
HQ:

SkarBrand:

I must say I wouldn't use this model due to his point cost and a few other reasons. That being said he is the ultimate combatant that kills all rather easy. Need a tank destroyed send this guy. Need a unit kill send this guy.

He is slightly nerfed, while at the same time majorly buffed. His army wide aura in a way is more usefull, or more harmfull. Anyway here is the low down.

Stats: Almost the same with worst strength and invulnerable save
Cost: Almost 100 points cheaper than the last codex and a decent amount of points cheaper than a Thirster. For what he does well worth the points.

He automatically comes with the instant death trait. It is very good that he can one shot models, but that trait only helps the warlord and not your army as a whole.


Weapons: lost BoC for a strenght 5 no ap flame template, but have 2 melee weapons = 7 atacks 8 on the charge which can eith wound on 2s or hit armour at strength 10+2d4( with 4 hammer attacks)

Aura: rage and hatred which means he's re rolling to hit and have 9 attacks on the charge. On the down side everyone within radius have that.

This model does not have eternal warrior, but with his inititiave and re rolling to hit he is more than likely will kill most models before they can hit him, do not forget he can cause instant death.

Also he turns Khorne Prince HQ into heavy support.

If you want a model that would kill any single model out there this is the one. Against an Archon for example on the charge that is 9 attacks which with re rolling would be 8 wounds which on average would easily kill the archon. Unless he is going up against Draigo which on average thanks to a 3+ invul save will take 2 almost 3 wounds. This model will win almost any fight. If it had eternal warrior it would win any fight.

Fateweaver:

He is no longer an op force multiplier. Still very good and is more powerful overall by it self. Last edition weaver relied on the army to back it up, while this one can be very destructive. That being said I may use him once or twice, but due to his cost I doubt he will see much use. I wouldn't be surprised if Fateweaver disapears altogether from tournaments.

Stats: overall much better. Only ws one model I know that is out there, but he now have 5 wounds. He still have a decent invul save so he is very durable outside of combat.

Artifact: Staff of Tomorow,  this artifact replaces army wide re rolling saves. It allows you to re roll one die of your choice per turn. This is big cause it can be any one roll. A good example is if you fail a tougness test and get turned into a squiq, you can re roll and possibly prevent your self from losing a model. In a way it is god cause you can re roll any roll like a opponent roll.


What's interesting is you can use 4 powers a turn. What's weird is you have to roll 4 on each head and select which powers you are using for what head. An example is one head may be biomancy and divation with two change powers. The other head may have pyromancy, etc... You in effect will have 8 powers to choose from. If all else fails you can always fire 4d6 strength 5 shots and still have one power left over to use.


Fateweaver unlocks Tzeentch Princes as Heavy Support.

Ku'Gath:

Much cheaper than before. Much better stats. I'll mention 2 which is toughness seven with seven wounds. You can not really complain about that.

Like Fateweaver he's helpful which. Instead of re rolling on the storm table you are re rolling on instability which is nice.

He is a level one psyker. Looking at the plague disciplines it's rather good choices which I will cover latter.

Nurgling Infestation: it allows Nurglings to regen wounds

Necro Missles: same as before, but ap 3 instead of 2.

Has a +4 poison and slime trail which disrupts assaults.

He has lost his +4 invul and feel no pain. Still a good model, but I think he is rather expensive. If instability is a problem for you he is a good choice.



Bloodthirster:

Stat wise all I got to say is are you kidding me. Probably the best melee fighter in the game. Much better stats from last edition with the exception of a worst invul save. He starts off at the same cost as before, so far the other HQ options has seen almost as much as a 75 point reduction in cost in some cases.

He unlocks Khorne Princes as Heavy Support.

Weapons Lash and Axe of Khorne:

The Axe of Khorne causes instant death on a 6, while lash is a Tau single plasma shot.

The Bloodthirster can take all 3 reward options, 5 lesser, 2 greater and one lesser, etc. Taking all the options would make the Thirster as much as a Weaver.

Rewards:

You randomly roll on each table to select the reward you like, etc. You can opt for 0 which give you access to artefacts, etc. This can be a rather involed process which you can't do until you actually play the game. Anyway I suggest reading rewards and etc in advance so you will have an ideal on what you want to do. I shall list some rewards, and etc to show how unique your thirster can be.

Lesser Rewards: in this case a lesser reward is silly. The +1 reserve roll is good if in reserve, adam will is somewhat helpful. You also have a range anti- tank and anti- troop. Overall I wouldn't bother with lesser and the 0 option you already have, but you will have another specialist weapon. Out of all of them another axe would give you a +1 attack which wouldn't be bad.

Greater Rewards:

With your weapon option you can get blade of blood which adds +1 attack tx to your axe. It also gives you rampage which adds a possible of 3 attacks if you choose to strike at int 1. Which means 11 attacks at ap 2 at strength 6-7. You can opt for an Etherblade which means 8 attacks on the charge which you can re roll one miss.

The greater rewards have boons like making your Thirster have 6 wounds with it will not die, feel on pain at 4+, re roll failed saves, a str 8 zonathorpe shot, armour and fleshbane

I would personally go with 2 greater and maybe a lesser. All the greater powers are good, but one. Also you can just get an etherblade or another weapon option if you roll bad. If you get two good greater options than a lesser option for the extra attack is not a bad ideal. Imagine a thirster with +1 attack, +1 wound, it will not die, and +4 FNP. Not to bad.


Exalted Rewards:

Ok this is where I say things get crazy. Personally I'm good with just greater reward. First let's cover artifacts.

Eternal Blade: str 7-8 on a Thirster. Not only that but Ws10, Int 10, 11 attacks on the charge at int 10.

The other artifacts are better on other models. However it is possible for your Thirster to have a 3+ invulnerable save. That being said it would be better for a unit to have a 3+ invul save rather than a single model.


RiftBringer: want more daemons in the game hope you get this. I think it's awesome on the thirster. If you cause like 6 unsaved wounds with your 11 attaacks you can easily spawn up to 15 models max. What makes this soooooooo bad is that it happens at the end of any assault phase. If you roll good enough and cause enough woundsit is possible to spawn 30 free daemons in one turn. More than likely you will get 20 a turn with 10 a turn being realistic. What makes riftbringer sooooooooo good is that the more models you have with this ability the more likely you can spawn more models. I say op here if used correctly.

Souleater: basically it can gain wounds up to 10 max. In oneturn your thirster can gain 2 wounds.

Warp Tether: basically you thought you killed the thirster and it came back, if it has it will not die it will be awesome.

As you can see some combos can make some models worst.



Lord of Change:

1. You have acess to the discipline of change.
A. 2d6-4d6 str 5 shots with soul blaze
B. Str 2-7 blast
C. Str 5 - 10 beam
D. Str 5-10 blast

Bolt and gateway are not bad powers and f fire is worth having. Firestorm kinda sucks. I would say go for c or d with the pri power. You can also use diviation powers which is also good. The good part about Fateweaver is that he has all the change powers while the LoC have 2 powers and can get a third. Honestly the change powers are rather nice.

Stats: much better than before besides swaping a 3+ invul for a 5+. It is possible to get the 3+ invul again, but I feel that bloodcrushers for example would benefit more from it than giving it to this unit.

This unit have the same access to awards as the Thirster. If max out you can have this unit hit 305 points which isn't really bad.

Artefacts:

Portalglyph: can you say a drop pod that generates 1d6 daemons. Not realy liking this since on average you will generate 3-4 letters, etc. If you already going the generate free deamons rout why not add this. For the points it does make up for it's points. If left alone you can on average generate 10 models which 42 models is the max amout you can make.

Doomstone: unless you have allied with a psyker battle squad it's not worth taking. However you can lower leadership for the whole game and if dropped under 0. This is where omg what where they thinking. Doomstone forces all none daemons to roll leadership and if failed receive a _5 modifier at the begining of each sub phase. Just dawned on me that this is stupid good. That means army wide leadership checks twice a turn. The psyker battle squad however would be helpful in taking out any annoying units. For example you lower a squad of wraiths to leadership 2. Doomstone comes around and they fail the whole squad dies. Any squad with leadership 10 that failed their leadership would be dropped to 5. At next combat subphase that squad or squads that failed the first time have their leadership dropped to 0 and die. Next turn if your battle squad is still alive you can snipe out another squad with the battle squad. I think stubborn may be a problem though, but for example you dealing with a 50 man blob you can lower them to leadership 2 and when Doomstone comes around the whole 50 man squad gets wiped out. Just looked at the power again and see that it just affect enemy models so battle squad is ok.


Lesser Rewards:

Here you can get a Staff of Change. It's rather good in a way since it makes your Loc strength 8 and since he is a MC he will be ap 2. On the down sideside or upside when you kill something with this weapon it explodes similar to a tank exploding, but at strength 5.

Greater Rewards:

Can get warpblade which turns models into spawn when you kill them. If you take a staff with this you wil get +1 attack. Only reason I would get this is really for the extra attack. However if you are fighting a heavy character unit this weapon would generate a lot of spawn as you kill them off. Still not really liking this..

Re rolling invuls and +2 invul will allow you to have Fateweaver of old. However keep in mind that this is random and very unlikely it will happen.

Exalted:

Wind of Chaos is and on average strength 7 blast that can be a strength 10 large blast.

Looking through the shooty powers I am use to Tzeentch being the shooty element. However Khorne now have a better BS. That being said Hellfire Gaze on a Thirster would be awsome to have with Warp Breath for two strength 8 shots that can hit on +2 that re rolls.

Great Uncean One:

Stats: one less wound and attack than Ku'Gah and 70 points cheaper and being more expensive than from the last codex. I would say the Unclean on comes out much better overall due to the options it has.

The unit has access to biomancy and plague.

Plague:

Pri power: think of an ap 3 BoC. This is a very good power which can put a hurting on a marine unit.
Plague Wind: pie plate of death. Large blast that kills terms.
Miasma: lowers ws and I.
Visitations: I call this broke op power #2. I will give you 2 unit examples on how op this is.

10 marines take toughness test
8 out of marines save with 2 die on average, due to 2 dead have to repeat 1-6, 1-4
4 live and 4 die. 5-6,1-6
At this point you have 4 marines left with 6 dead on average.

50 guardsmen
25 survive, 25 die
13 survive, 12 die
6 survive, 7 die
3 survive, 3 die
2 survive, 1 die
1 survive, 1 die

On average that attack to a guard blob will reduce the squad to one model with a 50/50 chance living.

To make this worse this is a nova power. Meaning that multiple units can get hit with this. On the bright side it stops as for that unit as long as all it's members pass the test. Need to kill wraiths here you go.


Arguleon-veq

Rancid Visitation and the Doomstone don't work like that. Visitation is 1 toughness test on the unit, not on every single model in the unit and the doomstone effects enemy characters locked in combat with the character with the doomstone at the start of each fight subphase.
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Chicop76

#14
Keeper of Secrets:

Stats: much better with a worse save. That being said the cheapest out of the greater daemon

Rewards: same as the others except restricted to etherblades.

Preferred enemy both Eldar Armies.

Have acess to telepathy and excess

The only worth wild power is Acquinscence which stops over watch and lowers I. The other powers are ok. If a psyker battle squad is taken as an ally than Pavanne would wipe out the unit with choir inflicting a decent amount of wounds on the unit.

Can be mastery level 3. I would say I doubt it is worth really doing that. However still a good cheap model which can dish out a lot of damage.

Daemon Prince:

To give this guy wings and +3 save with being a khorne model the model is almost the same cost of a Loc which have a better ws and I. Throw in mastery level 3 and max rewards this model comes out to be te highest costing model in the army. That being said biomancy and rewards can really help thi model out. The 3+ save is a must, but depending on how you running your army I would say I probably skip out on the wings.

The only thing the prince hve going for him is the ability to actually get a wide range of psychic powers. The problem is almost at the same cost the greater daemons are better. Due to lack of eternal warrior I probaly field a prince and a greater deamon and that is that for me. You can can 5 winged daemons, but it will easily be more than 1/2 your army in points.

I am confused on how to do a chaos marine prince and this one has the same problems. Although this one is much better than the chaos marine prince.

Heralds:

Skulltaker, karanak, changeling, epidemius, and other 4 heralds take up 1 hq slot. It would be nice to have 8 heralds, but 4 is max. I not sure if you can take 5, why would you. Anyway they all have IC and can join the proper units. I think the hearlds are really good and should be taken.

Skulltaker:

Much beter stats and can be given a Juggernaut. Cheaper than last edition. Comes with Abjuration which grants adamantium will to him and the unit he is with.

He must always challenge and issue challenges.

On of the few models that has eternal warrior. He really is the only one, but others can get it while he automatically have it.

Ap 3 weapon with soul blaze which causes instant death on a 6 to wound.

That's it. Why take him. For one if made into a warlord he can cause instant death. Also for his really cheap cost with a Juggernaut he is a threat on the table. In all honestly tx to a certain DA bok and the influx of more terminators I doubt you will see him used. Not to mention Heralds can be better.

Karanak:

Better stats. With scout which the hounds have.

Fury gives him and all modes he joins rage. So if joined to juggernauts they will have rage.

Karanak can re roll hits and wounds on one selected model. Great stats, but lack the ap to be really a threat to some characters.

Brass Collar: gives the unit he joins +4 deny the witch. That being said with another model it can get down to a 3+ deny the witch. However he can cause psykers to suffer perils more often. Good for Khorne bad if you also have a bunch of psykers as well. I say a great mono Khorne model.

Herald of Khorne:

Comes with a crap blade. Stat wise better than most other hq models with only 2 wounds. With Juggernaugt it ups the model to 100 points which makes him much better against same costing models in other books.

Have access to rewards as well, but not as many 3 lesser, greater and lesser, one Exalted. It wouldn't be a bad ideal to take two lesser for the extra attack. However axe of khorne is a good upgrade with juggernaught which will give you str 5-6 ap 2 attacks. If you go with greater rewards you have a good chance of making your guy more durable. Something like 4 wounds and it will not die would be nice. 

However one thought is to make what I call the true names herald. The thought process in this is to attack him and another herald the bloodcrushers. Thanks to will the whole unit will have a 3+ invulnerable save. Storm Shields at a very low cost. Skulltaker can come in handy in the front with eternal warrior which will help with strength 8-10 weapons, unless you just do 4 khorne heralds on juggernaugts where str 10 would be needed for instant death.

Already at 130 points and can kick butt however you can add locus which can give rage, hatred, and bonus DtH. At this point your guy can hit 155 and be a force multiplier in your squads. However for under 100 points you can force multiply and have a decent weapon as we'll. If anything the locus is mostly available to the heralds and hatred at least would be a bad ideal to get

The Changeling:

The main thing here is that the Changling can gain most of the stats of a target model. I still think it cost to much for what it does. The problem is you do not have the same weapon, wounds, or saves as the model it's copying.

The Blue Scribes:

I expected more from this unit. On the bright side it can randomly select any power from any disciplene with no charge or suffering perils. The problem here is it's still too random and it's only one power. I rather have more of an option.

If it feels I just barley covered the last two units it's because it's not much going on there, but a one gimmic thing with not great stats.

Herald of Tzeentch:

Have powers from diviation and change and can be mastery level 3 for under 100 points. Can take rewards which in a way I really do not think it is worth bothering. +3 invul 20 man horror squad seems nice to me in a way though.

What I said for the lord and for khorne herald applies with this model.


Have 3 locus. More blue horror tokens which isn't bad. If you lose 5 horrors instead of 5 hit back you will get 15 hits back possible, +1 S to spells for the unit which means strength 6 shooting horrors, and random strength which they already at average strength for rolling.

The problem I see with the herald is rather or not to keep him basic, disk, or chariot. Before a chariot was a no brainer. Now it is harder to determine. I think you should put him in with the squad to get the bonus to spell strength or the increase in blue horror tokens. The added psyer powers would be very helpful to the squad in my opionion.

If you go the chariot route than taking a staff str 5 ap 4 orwarpbalde str 3 ap 3 wouldn't be a bad ideal. If you take both that's +1 attack for 3 attacks. If you make a sweep attack that's 3d6. Attacks that hit on 3s or 4s. Against poor saving armies the high strength weapon can deal out decent damage or you can switch to ap 3 to kill a few marines. The best part of the staff is that yu can generate an explosion for additional hits or generate spawn. The problem is y it has to be a character or MC.

After raking units with the chariot you are free to fire what powers you choose to use afterwards.

Epidemius:

He has better stats and can allow units to get +2 poison on a roll of 6. His tally has been nerfed which works as an aura effect and for only nurgle daemons. Also they made the tally count higher and harder to get the bonuses.

To add salt to the wound the bonuses is no where near what they use to be. For nurglings who are near enough at max tallies they would have t4, s4, poison+2, and +4 feel no pain. Which would be really good for that unit. The real goal is to get the +2 poison and the +4 feel no pain would be nice. If you want old 5th edition plague bearers at a reduced cost than the tally man is the way to go. Also he cost the same. That being said he is worth playing especial if a herald is with him with the grimore. That would mean a possible 3+ invul with a 4+ feel no pain.

Herald of Nurgle:

Stats: much better than last edition and has I 4

Weapon choices is the balesword and plague flail. Bale causes instant deah which is good for Mc's, but in this case etherblade is better than both weapon options.

Can have mastery 2 and pick from biomancy and plague disciplines.

Loci: can get +2 poison on 6s, provide fnp,  extra attack. I would say fnp would be a no brainer

Can upgrade to Panaquin which at toughness 5 makes him rather hard to kill. I would like to point out that biomancy can make him even tougher. With str 5 that can be 6 and biomancy can possibly up it to 9. All kinds of awesomeness can or cannot happen here. May be slow, but has the potential to be as strong or even stronger than some MCs.