1850 space marines, advice needed!

[Zackdanials]

Howdy.

Been experimenting with different lists for a local league, I tend to do ok but I think I could do better. The meta's neither one thing or the other, various unbound lists, a wraith guard/aspect warrior list, demons etc. Some people have uber competitive lists and others are fluff based. I usually take combined arms (just cause one HQ two troops is the way I learned) but I'd like to experiment a bit.

First try:

First Company Task Force:
5xSternguard Veterans, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod
5xSternguard Veterans, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod
5xSternguard Veterans, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

Skyhammer Annihilation Force:
10xAssault Marines, Flamer, Eviscerator,  Vet Sgt w/Power Weapon
10xAssault Marines, Flamer, Eviscerator,  Vet Sgt w/Power Weapon
10xDevastator Marines, four Grav Cannons, Drop Pod
5xDevastator Marines, four Grav Cannons, Drop Pod

Librarius Conclave:
Librarian, ML2
Librarian, ML2
Librarian, ML2
Librarian, ML2, Jump Pack

First question, does this army count as battle forged, and is it even legal? I'm a bit confused as to how it works with multiple formation/detachments.

Anyways, that comes in at just under 1850 points. The idea here is for one hell of an alpha strike, two of the sternguard squads dropping in the first turn along with the Skyhammer force. The devastators concentrate on any armour, TEQ or monstrous creatures hanging around, the sternguard toast/bolter people (taking advantage of their primary threat rule which gives them preferred enemy against one enemy unit) while the assault squads can hopefully take on anybody else with their flamers, power weapons and eviscerators.
I'm not sure where to put the librarians, the plan was to put one in each sternguard squad until I remembered one squad won't be dropping until turn two so I can't take advantage of empyric channeling until then. The libby with jump pack is obviously for one of the assault squads, if I leave them close enough to the sternguard before their charge I could get the bonus that way, or attach a libby to one devastator squad and two sternguard squads.
For powers I would probably be going for a mix of biomancy/divination for buffs/de-buffs and re-rolling misses.

What do you guys think? Obviously I'm completely lacking in anti-air. If I swapped the first company formation for the one with a stormraven and two stormtalons I have about sixty points left over for upgrades, but that means I possibly wouldn't have anything on table until turn two (can I even do that?) and boots on the ground wise I'm only left with about forty marines.

Any advice would be grand.




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[Zackdanials]

Oh and forgot to say, the main disadvantage I can see is if I roll badly on my first turn I'll be left with about fifty toughness 4 3+ save marines standing around in front of the enemy lines without an invun to be found (barring powers). The counter attack could really hurt.


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[Waaaghpower]

You want ten Devestators over ten Assault Marines.
Why?
Because you can *combat squad.* Five Boltguns might seem like nothing, but you don't need more than that to force the pinning tests and/or deny Overwatch. So, with 2 full squads, you can combat squad, waste Boltgun fire against measly targets whom you don't care about. Then, fire the Grav Cannons as intended, and laugh.

Make sure to use Ultramarine Chapter Tactics for the free Devestator Doctrine on turn one.

This is definitely battle-forged, by the way.

You are taking this as a tourney list, right? Because if you showed up with this for a random pickup game, I would depart towards the door using a forward-thrusting hip movement to garner momentum. It's maybe not the cheesiest possible list, but it makes use of both of the Space Marine's most obscenely powerful formations.


Oh, and watch out for Interceptor, and REALLY watch out for Coteaz.

[Zackdanials]

Combat squadding is the plan for the ten man devastator squad, although I was thinking maybe two Grav cannons in each squad so I can effectively split fire.

As a battle forged space marine force don't i get one use of each of the doctrines per game? Or is that just gladius forces? I haven't got my codex to hand. As for chapter tactics it's a salamanders army, not particularly useful in this list I'll admit.

It's not a tournament list per se, just depends which of my league opponents I come up against since we're not forced to use the same list each time (I'm looking at you wraith guard)

Why Coteaz? I don't know his rules. And cheers for the reply.


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[GoodTower]

You have to watch out for Coteaz because his “I’ve been expecting you” Special Rule means that any squad that appears from reserves within 12” of him (like, for example, a five-man unit of devestators with, say, two grav-cannons in it…) AUTOMATICALLY gets shot at by his squad at FULL BS after YOUR movement phase. There is NO LIMIT to the number of times that he can do this. What this means is that my unit of 5 devestators with Coteaz sitting in a Rhino and holding two Grav-Cannons is actually a 24” across sphere of death that will (thanks to the sergeant’s signum, and maybe Coteaz's Prescience) inflict an average of 7-8 casualties on Space Marines per round of shooting. That means that when your thirty-five Skyhammer marines jump out of their Drop Pods at close range to Grav-Cannon and Assault my army shouting “Ha!” my Coteaz-led Devestators kill EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM before you have the chance to fire a single shot. So we shout “COUNTER HA!” because our cheese is cheesier than your cheese and you’ve been out-cheesed. (By a unit that costs a grand total of 240 pts. In a double-demi Gladius Strike force, BTW). Naturally my Coteaz Devestators will be right in the middle of my army (i.e. –exactly where you need to deep strike for your Skyhammer tactics to work) – so 240 pts. Of Marines and Inquisition can literally annihilate your +- 1,000 pts. Of Skyhammer in a single turn of shooting ON YOUR TURN.

Having explained WHY Waaaghpower warned you to “REALLY watch out for Coteaz” (And I have to say I think the Skyhammer Annihilation Force and it’s very obvious cheese is going to lead to a proliferation of Coteazs among Imperial players and maybe even other armies as well)  I want to chime in and agree with him in terms of where this list is appropriate. On the one hand I applaud you for optimizing some of the cheesiest rules currently available from GW to create what should be well-nigh unbeatable army. On the other hand you should be keenly aware of the fact that fighting this army is NOT going to lead to fun, story-driven games of 40K that people will talk about for years to come. This list is appropriate for no-holds-barred tournaments, utterly ruthless league play, and people you want to annoy. If you spring this cheese on your buddies they will be understandably upset and you’ll garner a reputation as a cheese-monger. Just some friendly feedback!

[BigToof]

Not sure how much psycher you need, but having the conclave be all level 2's might be a bit much.  Alternatively, switching out to Tigerius also is pretty good if you don't mind named characters.

I personally like the new Raven Guard Kill Team for a null deployment type with the Skyhammer.
Kind of gross, but a lot of fun

Best,
-BT

[Zackdanials]

So I get the feeling you think the list may be a bit cheesy then. It may come as a surprise but I was never going for that, I just wanted to stand a chance! that's the problem with the league, while not being confined to a definite list is easier it means you come up against so many different things. I usually run fluffy blood Angels or salamanders and do ok, this list is basically aimed at two players. There's an obnoxious brat with grey knights (psychic spam) and a really talented bloke who runs a wraithguard formation with wraithknight (strength d spam). Both these armies kick my ass without breaking a sweat, the closest I've come to winning was against the eldar player when I lost by one point after seven turns. So it's not a list for friendly games

As a reply to you big toof ML2 is a bit much I agree, I could lose it on the jump pack librarian and use the points for a few combi-weapons in the sternguard. I'd like to keep the other three though as both the eldar and grey knight player rack up a fair few dice.

Thanks for your replies guys, does anyone know if these formations can use doctrines? I'm at work so no codex alas.


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[Waaaghpower]

You only get doctrines in special circumstances, unfortunately. Ultramarines get one of each automatically, a Gladius Strike Force gets one of each (But only for the models within the Gladius Strike Force,) and Battle Demi Companies get a single use of just the Tactical doctrine (But only for the models within the Demi Company.)

Something worthy of note, as an army of Salamanders, you get Master-Crafted on one of your Character's weapons. This means that Combi-Weapons on all of your Sternguard and Devestator captains would be a remarkably effective tool. (Not to mention the obvious benefits of Master-Crafted Eviscerators and Force weapons.)

Also, if you can shave points to give Jump Packs to all of your Librarians, having four of them in one squad makes for a ridiculously powerful combat deathstar. If you can manage to get Invisibility on one, and roll the rest on Biomancy, (Maybe using one Mastery Level to grab Prescience,) then you've practically got a guarantee for rerolls to hit, the opponent needing 6s on you, always activating Force for all of your Librarians, and one guy will always get +3 S, T, A, and I.

[Zackdanials]

Ouch that'd be nasty. Knowing my luck they'd deep strike mishap...is there any way of getting a reroll on the psychic tables? I know it's easy to get warlord trait rerolls but I'm not too sure of psychics


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[Waaaghpower]

Two ways - An Imperial Fists relic (I *think*, but I don't have the book,) or Tigurius, neither of which really help you.