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Powergaming/Whats Fair/What will you Play?

Started by Arguleon-veq, December 16, 2012, 12:01:21 AM

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Wargamer

For all intents and purposes, Drop Pods don't scatter. You place them down, roll for scatter, and then when it turns out you can't place the pod there, the rules state you reduce the scatter enough to make the drop legal. Never, in all my time playing 40K, can I recall a Drop Pod scattering off table, which was the only 'mishap' it could actually suffer.

So, for 35pts you get an unstoppable alpha-strike. "better army deployment" feels to me like a piss-poor cop out, and you're basically saying "you have to give up all mobility, and potentially lose out on holding cover and/or desirable firing solutions, because if you don't you're screwed."

That is not acceptable. That kind of area denial ability needs to cost a lot more than 35pts. If a Pod was 350, then it'd be fine, but it's not. The whole package typically wraps up as a 150-200pt unit that can easily inflict double that in direct damage, not to mention the fact the enemy has to focus-fire the cargo down, further increasing the survivability of your main force.

I've seen this too many times. Almost every game involving the Drop Pod has resulted in me wanting to say "fuck you" to the guy I'm playing and either walk away from the table, or smash the Pod into pieces and then walk away. It is clearly not a unit built with balance or fun in mind.
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

Quote from: Liberate the Warhammers
People who have no sense of Sportsmanship have NO PLACE designing any Gaming system

Arguleon-veq

Ive had drop pods scatter off the table a few times and lose it and the whole unit to mishaps. Ive actually gotten so paranoid about it that I will not ever drop within 12'' of a table edge just in case even if there is a perfect place for me to land. My friend regularly has his Furiosos in Pods scatter out of Frag Cannon range.

If Drop Pods were really that effective they would be dominating the meta game but they arent, at all. Because they arent very powerful.

Now they have the added problem that they actually get shot in your opponents turn thanks to intercept on quad guns and icarus lascannons which ive lost first blood to a few times.

Plus getting a few plasmas/meltas in range turn 1 is no different to a devi squad getting first turn and firing their lascannons.

Im usually very happy when I see a few drop pods landing in my lines turn 1. I make sure that they cant land to get a rear shot on the few tanks I have and that they cant get in double pen range of them with meltas by placing my infantry around them. So they drop in and take a long shot at damaging a tank on the front armour from more then 6'' away or they do a few wounds to my infantry. Then whatever dropped in usually gets totally wiped out thanks to all my army shooting and then charging to finish off if they need to.

My Eldar have played Sternguard/Pedro combi spam pod lists a few times and ate them up every single time because even 20 combi weapon sternguard landing in your lines cant kill enough in 1 turn to justify how much it costs for them to be lost immediatly after as the whole enemy army swamps them.
X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

Naser Al-Istikhara Cyrus

#17
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on December 16, 2012, 10:59:52 PM
Ive had drop pods scatter off the table a few times and lose it and the whole unit to mishaps. Ive actually gotten so paranoid about it that I will not ever drop within 12'' of a table edge just in case even if there is a perfect place for me to land.

This is a thing? I thought this couldnt happen :P

*rummages through rulebook*

EDIT: Just checked, turned out i was wrong.

Also, drop pods got a nice boost with 6th - because half of the drop-pods arrive on turn 1 garunteed, and the other half arrive on turn 1 on the roll of 3+

EDIT Mk II: Checked up on the above and realised i was wrong  :facepalm001:

I only started playing 6th a few weeks ago, and the redshirt at our LGS was directing our first game, and said that reserve rolls now start on turn 1. I never checked up on the rules on that; i took his word for it because i knew that he knew 6th better than me at the time.
Quote from: Narric on August 15, 2011, 12:09:07 AM
You make it sound like it could be wearing a top-hat and monocle, but for the sole reason it'd have been painted by Gareth that it would still look terrifying........I have to say I agree. XD
Quote from: Greg Mun

Aun

#18
I played an all-drop-pod vanilla space marine army before, simply because I enjoyed the theme and the concept of the army rather than trying to be beardy. Frankly I'm fairly confused about the rampant hate for drop pods I'm seeing as I never really bowled anyone over with mine.

The strength of Drop Pods lies in their capacity to deliver a squad close to the enemy and deliver a vicious alpha strike, but there are many armies that I played against that the Drop Pods where anything but competitive against (Orks, Tyranids, and really any melee centric force) and in general the vanilla space marine units lack the capacity to take more than a single special weapon which is where the real bite of a drop pod unit lies, not with mass bolters.

However, there are two units that can take mass special weapons: sternguard and command squads, but both of those have their own significant drawbacks. Sternguard are expensive if given many combi-weapons and dont score (unless of course Pedro is involved). A unit of sternguard optimized for drop pod insertion will run 335 points and will only be able to fire those special weapons a single time (though once will probably be enough to destroy their target).
Command squads are also not cheap requiring the purchase of a Space Marine Captain and will never be capable of scoring an objective. Due to their small size they are also vulnerable to being destroyed regardless of the presence of an Apothicary. The points cost for drop pods themselves are also not inconsiderable; considering that after they have deployed their cargo they are essentially worthless kill-points.

A correctly built army should also not completely crumple to a drop pod strike. For example, if a squad of Sternguard equipped with combi-meltas manages to destroy all of your anti-tank capacity in a single turn when it deploys (which is at most two units it can destroy) then there is a clear lack of redundancy in your army list. A drop pod strike can cripple certain aspects or units in your list (as it should) but if it entirely obliterates an aspect of your strategy then the problem isn't in the pods.


I think that most of the dislike for drop pods doesnt stem from any actual over-effectiveness. Nothing substantially changed with 6th edition to make drop pods broken.
Instead, I think its a frustration over the fact that drop pods cannot be countered in the same manor as Rhinos or other transport options which usually allow an opponent several turns to neutralize them.
However, the squads in drop pods have a vastly shorter average life span than those carried in other transports for a variety of reasons (seclusion from supporting units, a perceived greater threat index by the opponent, etc.) making drop pod deployment virtually suicidal on the part of the participant, and in my opinion this is where the skill and balance of drop pods lie.
Essentially, the unit you deploy, usually very expensive, is going to be destroyed the turn after it makes its deployment. So what do you trade it for?

The example 335 point sternguard unit (equipped with drop pod and 10 combi-meltas) has the capacity to destroy two Leman Russ battle tanks (300 points minimum) if it deploys in combat squads, making it a fair trade in points considering said sternguard unit will probably be wiped from the face of the table by the indignant imperial guard player.

Waaaghpower

Aun, the problem with Drop Pods isn't that the unit inside is too cheap, or it is too sturdy, it's the free VP from first blood. Yes, a 335 point sternguard unit will cost a ton, but it is also a near automatic VP unless you get the worst rolls of all time.
Super Mario 3D World is The. Best. Thing.

Aun

Quote from: Waaaghpower on December 17, 2012, 03:41:23 AM
Aun, the problem with Drop Pods isn't that the unit inside is too cheap, or it is too sturdy, it's the free VP from first blood. Yes, a 335 point sternguard unit will cost a ton, but it is also a near automatic VP unless you get the worst rolls of all time.

Its extremely far from a near automatic. The roll-off for first turn can deny the drop pod player first turn giving the opponent exactly the same opportunity as the drop pod player to claim first blood (a single turn).
And regardless, while a single victory point from first blood is important, its hardly game changing. A single stray lascannon shot blowing up a leman russ can do that.

Its a very weak argument that drop pods are broken because they have an (arguably) high possibility of gaining you First Blood and it isnt one I've read here or heard elsewhere.

Zen

Quote from: Waaaghpower on December 17, 2012, 03:41:23 AM
Aun, the problem with Drop Pods isn't that the unit inside is too cheap, or it is too sturdy, it's the free VP from first blood. Yes, a 335 point sternguard unit will cost a ton, but it is also a near automatic VP unless you get the worst rolls of all time.
Aun does have a point though; yes, the VP from First Blood is almost guaranteed (and only if you're clever andlucky enough) but the unit will find itself isolated and would give off a VP of their own depending on the scenario. Anyway, coming down from the sky and surprising the enemy isn't a "Win All, Be All" strategy. It does have its drawbacks e.g. they need proper ground support if they are to survive and achieve the overall objective otherwise they find themselves isolated and surrounded.

Also, there are about a dozen other things that are almost akin or worse than Drop Pods.

loeldrad

#22
I don't think I or anyone In my group that I play with have ever refused a game (at least to the best of my knowledge). I don't get to play 40k enough to be picky about my match ups haha but even If I had that luxury I can't really see denying a game. Although I do only really play with friends and we have a good understanding of whats coming to the table. If someone suggests they are trying out a themed list next time we play I'll bring a themed list, if they want to go super competitive I'll go competitive too. Communication goes a long way. Unfortunately though, playing against randoms at shops I personally would just assume they are going all out unless they say otherwise.

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on December 16, 2012, 10:59:52 PM
Im usually very happy when I see a few drop pods landing in my lines turn 1. I make sure that they cant land to get a rear shot on the few tanks I have and that they cant get in double pen range of them with meltas by placing my infantry around them. So they drop in and take a long shot at damaging a tank on the front armour from more then 6'' away or they do a few wounds to my infantry. Then whatever dropped in usually gets totally wiped out thanks to all my army shooting and then charging to finish off if they need to.

My Eldar have played Sternguard/Pedro combi spam pod lists a few times and ate them up every single time because even 20 combi weapon sternguard landing in your lines cant kill enough in 1 turn to justify how much it costs for them to be lost immediatly after as the whole enemy army swamps them.

Couldn't have put it better myself. I used to get frustrated vs pod lists but playing against them enough (two marine players I play with used them a ton over the past couple years) I finally learned to just turtle up your entire army in the corner like Arg suggests and the effectiveness of pods just drops hard. Trickling directly into someones entire army is never going to end well for you. To me that's personal experience of finding ways to beat things that seem difficult by experimenting with different tactics. If I refused to play against it I never would of figured it out. Now I can't even remember the last time I was beat by a Pod spam list.

Wargamer

I feel it's worth clarifying that I do believe you can use the Pod in a non-beardy fashion. The problem, of course, is that nobody ever does. I played a few Vassal games with someone a long while back who had his entire army mounted in pods, but I honestly had very little to fear from him because his army was, for want of a better word, a proper army. He had Tactical Squads, a Chaplain, some normal Dreadnoughts, etc. There were no units in the list that screamed "This is what the Internet says I should be using", and I was fine with playing that force. The sad truth is that the Pod Army worked against him; he got half his forces on the table in rapid-fire range turn 1, and had double the firepower coming back at him.

I seriously think attitude counts for a lot. I don't buy new models anymore, partly through cost but mostly because I doubt I'd want to. As such, my armies tend to be built around what I own, which is almost all 3rd Edition models. There's newer stuff in there, but I don't physically own the 'auto win' models. Nor do I want to. I want to be able to bring a force where my Troops matter, where my vehicles (Dreads as Marines, Russ as Guard) can make themselves felt, where my specialist units matter, but aren't a crutch the rest of the army has to use, etc.
I don't feel that's possible anymore, not against a lot of players. Now, bringing a 'normal' army is a death sentence, because you can bet your opponent won't.

Really, the Powergamer can be easily spotted by one simple rule; there's no background on the tabletop. Space Marines don't deploy Venerable Dreadnoughts or Sternguard Melta-squads unsupported into the middle of the enemy army. They don't deploy anyone unsupported into the middle of the enemy army! Moreover, if you're using Drop Pods you sure as hell shouldn't have anything in your army that cannot fit inside a Pod unless it can deploy under its own power... yet just about every army I see with a Pod has a Land Raider as well. Strange, seeing as Pods are pretty much exclusively used as a first wave assault vehicle, which precludes the deployment of ground vehicles...

This kind of thing spreads to other armies, of course, it's just that Space Marines are by far the most common offenders of this general attitude, if only because there's so many more Space Marine armies out there.
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

Quote from: Liberate the Warhammers
People who have no sense of Sportsmanship have NO PLACE designing any Gaming system

Arguleon-veq

Drop Pods dont even get first blood reliably with turn 1 anymore anyway. They usually give it away as you see so many Quad Guns and Icarus Lascannons. The Quadgun doesnt even have to blow it up, it can glance it to death. It only needs 2 glances to kill it as the Pod loses a hull point just by landing.

''I seriously think attitude counts for a lot. I don't buy new models anymore, partly through cost but mostly because I doubt I'd want to. As such, my armies tend to be built around what I own, which is almost all 3rd Edition models. There's newer stuff in there, but I don't physically own the 'auto win' models. Nor do I want to. I want to be able to bring a force where my Troops matter, where my vehicles (Dreads as Marines, Russ as Guard) can make themselves felt, where my specialist units matter, but aren't a crutch the rest of the army has to use, etc.
I don't feel that's possible anymore, not against a lot of players. Now, bringing a 'normal' army is a death sentence, because you can bet your opponent won't.
''

I hardly buy models anymore either as its just too expensive. I think 6th helps a lot of older models though. Troops really are super important now, and they dont need transports anymore. Dreads are about as effective, sure they get glanced to death and grenades are better against them but they can stand and shoot [making that fist mounted heavy flamer a very tasty option] and its way easier for them to get a cover save. I think Russ are fantastic again now, especially since they get the heavy vehicle rule in an FAQ. So they can move 6'' and fire everything and now glances wont stop them shooting, which is huge and weapon destroyed results are random so your main cannon gets to keep going for longer.

If anything this edition is one were a lot of armies actually benefit from a more balanced/mixed approach to list building.
X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

Wargamer

#25
But that is entirely the wrong answer yet again. "Oh, Pods are easy to deal with - just buy a piece of terrain as part of your army!" No. My army does not drag bunkers around behind it, and I am entirely against the idea of players being allowed to do on principle. The only time I am in favour of being able to buy Icarus Lascannons and the like is in Planetstrike, where the Defender is already allowed to pretty much build the board however they want.

Also, why would Pods take damage just from arriving? They don't suffer a Glancing or Penetrating hit when they arrive, they're just vehicles with a movement value of 0.

And because I already know I'll have to argue this later if I don't...

Quote from: Codex: Space Marines, page 69, "Immobile"
A Drop Pod ... counts in all respects as a vehicle that has suffered an Immobilised damage result.

Quote from:  6th Edition Rulebook, page 74, Vehicle Damage Table, "Immobilised"
An Immobilised vehicle cannot move - it may not even pivot, but its turret may continue to rotate to select targets, and other weapons retain their normal arcs of fire. Any Immobilised results suffered by an already Immobilised vehicle, or a Flyer with a Locked Velocity (see page 81) instead remove an additional Hull Point

Nowhere in that rule does it state you lose a Hull Point for suffering an Immobilised result. You lose Hull Points due to suffering a Glancing or Penetrating Hit, and that step is resolved separately from rolling on the damage table. Being Immobilised does not, unless explicitly stated as in the Dangerous Terrain FAQ, cause the loss of Hull Points.
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

Quote from: Liberate the Warhammers
People who have no sense of Sportsmanship have NO PLACE designing any Gaming system

Paradoxrifts

I wish more people played the game in the manner and style of the White Dwarf battle reports of fabled yore. Back when the players would be called in and given their pick from whatever was currently sitting in the studio army cabinet, and they just had to make do with the wide range of different and often sub-par choices that were provided to them in order to best their opponent.

Chess is a tactical game that has stood the test of time because it includes pawns, knights, bishops, rooks, queens and kings. In comparison most WH40K players these days wouldn't play a game like chess unless they were allowed to play with nothing but queen pieces. Not that I like chess or anything. The comparison just sort of popped into my head.   

Arguleon-veq

#27
What? That wasnt the answer to dealing with Drop Pods. That has already been answered and its simple army placement and tactics. That was just a way to get first blood against a Pod list without even going first.

I dont know what wording justifies it or if its in an FAQ somewhere but that seems to be how it is being played by people that are far more willing to trawl through the exact wording of rules than I am.

EDIT: Its to do with the new FAQ which discusses failing dangerous terrain tests on a vehicle and becoming immobalised causing them to lose a hull point despite no glancing or penetrating hits.
X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

Naser Al-Istikhara Cyrus

Quote from: Wargamer on December 17, 2012, 12:06:58 PM
Really, the Powergamer can be easily spotted by one simple rule; there's no background on the tabletop. Space Marines don't deploy Venerable Dreadnoughts or Sternguard Melta-squads unsupported into the middle of the enemy army. They don't deploy anyone unsupported into the middle of the enemy army! Moreover, if you're using Drop Pods you sure as hell shouldn't have anything in your army that cannot fit inside a Pod unless it can deploy under its own power... yet just about every army I see with a Pod has a Land Raider as well. Strange, seeing as Pods are pretty much exclusively used as a first wave assault vehicle, which precludes the deployment of ground vehicles...

This, is a really good example of how to tell if someone is either a powergamer, or a noob; as I mentioned in one of my posts a page back.
Quote from: Narric on August 15, 2011, 12:09:07 AM
You make it sound like it could be wearing a top-hat and monocle, but for the sole reason it'd have been painted by Gareth that it would still look terrifying........I have to say I agree. XD
Quote from: Greg Mun

Wargamer

Quote from: Paradoxrifts on December 17, 2012, 10:02:46 PM
I wish more people played the game in the manner and style of the White Dwarf battle reports of fabled yore. Back when the players would be called in and given their pick from whatever was currently sitting in the studio army cabinet, and they just had to make do with the wide range of different and often sub-par choices that were provided to them in order to best their opponent.

That feels a lot like how I build my armies. My Blood Angel list is pretty much built around the following rules:

  • There has to be Death Company, because it's Blood Angels and Death Company are pretty much what distinguish them from everyone else.
  • There have to be two Dreadnoughts, because I love the models to bits.
  • There have to be two 10-man Tactical squads, because all Space Marine armies should have at least two 10-man Tactical squads.
That 'mandatory' selection can easily rock up over a third of your army... if not more. Plus you need a HQ on top of that. There isn't a great deal of wiggle room left for more additions to the force.

Of that list, only one unit is really useful - the Death Company. Tactical squads are a  waste of points and Dreadnoughts are pretty fragile. It's a huge point sink, and against the more typical forces you see these days it's a sink that pretty much costs  me the game before anything else takes place.
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

Quote from: Liberate the Warhammers
People who have no sense of Sportsmanship have NO PLACE designing any Gaming system