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Orks, Great for 6th

Started by Arguleon-veq, July 13, 2012, 10:37:21 PM

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Arguleon-veq

After years of Orks being pretty poor for the second half of 5th Ed we now have an army that can compete again thanks to the rule changes.

Flyers are obviously the key issue with 6th. They are massivly overpowered and undercosted and to make matters worse, very few armies in the game can reliably deal with them. Orks have one of the best units around for it:

Lootas

They were great anyway, but now they are fantastic as both anti flyer and anti tank. They put enough glancing hits on anything short of AV14 to kill them and thanks to the weight of fire, can even bring down flyers.

The second unit that has really got a boost are:

Nob Bikers

T5 For instant death now.
Due to T5 only S10 ignores their FnP
Every Nob is a character so half your hits with your bike guns have precision shot.
Every guy gets look out sir, so you can wound allocate like 5th essentially.
Warboss is T6, so you put S10 hits on him.

I am currently running a list that is roughly this;

Bike Boss
8 Bike Nobs
3x15 Lootas
3x20 Boys [Nob with Claw in each]
At 1750 Points.

So far it has smashed a Mech BA list, smashed Necrons and beat Guard twice that were running 6 Vendettas each. Ive also watched a list similar to mine but with less boys and an extra Bike Boss table 3 Vendetta Guard in about 4 turns.

Im really thinking Orks are the way to go for my competative 6th Ed army. My Wolves dont cut it because I cant deal with flyers. I dont own any Vendettas or Hydras for Guard and im not prepared to buy any but for the first time in a long time I think my Orks can really cut it.
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Matt1785

I will admit that they are better, and I believe that most armies are better... just don't forget that you can't allocate wounds based on Toughness value... the front person gets hit until they're dead... this also goes well for CC although I will admit that I see Nob Bikers making a good return to the game after having been totally countered mid 5th as you stated.

Overall I don't know that any army stands out as "Crap" now, and that's great.  I was watching an Ork player at my LGS getting whipped by Tau (Lots of S10 guns...)... which is great, I think that this Edition has really turned things around.

Lootas as you said are always good, but definitely have become a multi-tasker due to the new damage rules... just stinks that you can only harm 3 units a turn.. way overkill with 15 Loots (Depending on rolls).

El ShasOcho

Actually, as OP says Nobs are all characters, so due to "Look out, Sir" rolls, they can pass wounds around the squad, effectively bypassing the closest to shooter rule and returning to wound allocation shenanigans.

Quote from: Lee Lee Declis on August 06, 2010, 03:14:38 AM
Although, it must be said, one should always have a Fantasy in

Rej

I've heard it stated several times that Nob Bikers are all characters, same with Paladins, and I had a look through the character section of my Rulebook but I can't really find the part that seems to definitively suggest this.

i don't dispute that it is the case, but can someone explain to me why they are all considered characters?

Is it simply because they can be taken in units of 1? Or?

I don't think I like the idea of an entire squad shouting Look out sir! and diving every which way to take and dodge bullets in the midst of battle...
Phew...

The Man They Call Jayne

"I don't think I like the idea of an entire squad shouting Look out sir! and diving every which way to take and dodge bullets in the midst of battle..."

Really? Sounds like Orks at the best of times to me.

The would allocation thing is because Nobs are all Squad Leader type unites, like a Wolf Guard, or an Aspiring Champion, and Nob Bikers is a unit MADE of sqaud leaders.
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crisis_vyper

Well, Orks have the flyers, Orks have the Nobs, Orks have the anti-flyers, and orks have the horde shooting stuff....

Personally if I were to play with my Orks, I would have 3 squads of 10 Lootas, 3 Dakkajets, 2-3 Battlewagons, and a whole lot of boyz on them. Makes for a very intimidating army.

El ShasOcho

Currently I have 2 dakkajets, 10 lootas, almost 60 boyz, and some other stuff. I think I will end up running a unit of Koptas with that, might grab some nob bikers for their awesome survivability/speed/power, and either more lootas or some meganobz to take advantage of 2+ being much better now.

Quote from: Lee Lee Declis on August 06, 2010, 03:14:38 AM
Although, it must be said, one should always have a Fantasy in

Arguleon-veq

It says what is a character or not in the appendix at the back of the book where they have the statline for every unit, some strange ones are like wraithlords

Dakkajets are pretty terrible though, too lightweight and don't have high enough strength to threaten other flyers. .
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Cammerz

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on July 14, 2012, 01:33:08 PM
It says what is a character or not in the appendix at the back of the book where they have the statline for every unit, some strange ones are like wraithlords

Probably because characters can issue and accept challenges and they reckon it'd be cool. Dreadknights and C'Tan shards also get this staus.

crisis_vyper

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on July 14, 2012, 01:33:08 PM
Dakkajets are pretty terrible though, too lightweight and don't have high enough strength to threaten other flyers. .

I say you are not right there, as Dakkajets are nasty for what they throw out. With the hull point system in place and the low armour of other flyers (Stormravens are much higher of course) they can gun down a lot of things. Str 6 is all that is needed to do some real damage.

And with the Flyer rules and the ace upgrade, they are one of the best dogfighters around.

Arguleon-veq

They really don't gun down other flyers or beat any in a dogfight besides maybe the storm talon which is also a very poor choice. You get 6 hits out of a tooled up Dakkajet. So a single glance vs a vendetta or storm raven who then will blow it away in return. Even the Nightsycthe which is a dedicated transport, outfights a Dakkajet and wins the dogfight between the two. The only place ork flyers are usful is against armies who lack any real anti air.
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crisis_vyper

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on July 15, 2012, 09:37:41 AM
They really don't gun down other flyers or beat any in a dogfight besides maybe the storm talon which is also a very poor choice. You get 6 hits out of a tooled up Dakkajet. So a single glance vs a vendetta or storm raven who then will blow it away in return. Even the Nightsycthe which is a dedicated transport, outfights a Dakkajet and wins the dogfight between the two. The only place ork flyers are usful is against armies who lack any real anti air.

With the third supa gun being the average upgrade, you are shooting 9 twin-linked shots every turn. And with the Waargh!, it will be 18 shots in that particular turn (With warphead, you can definitely increase the number of Waargh). Flyers can fire 4 weapons while they are moving at combat or cruising speed, and thus the Dakkajet can fire its three 3 twin-linked supa shootas. And usually it is best to use the Dakkajet as a flanker so you are bound to get the side armor of the flyer. Not to mention that hitting things without being forced to snap-fire is always infinitely better (even if you are an Ork).

As for the thing about losing every dogfight;

A Night Scythe has a twin-linked Tesla Destructor which does have a good input as well, but it is still 4 shots + the 6s for additional hits for teslas. Not to mention that the additional cost of the Night Scythe (passengers) means that it is usually a more expensive purchase to begin with. The Doom Scythe is also quite good which I admit, but the armor of both vehicles are low enough to be threatened by the dakkajet.

The Razorwing and the Voidraven both have lances and missiles, but their armor is very low as well, and the supa shootas can definitely gun them down fast.

The Stormraven is perhaps the toughest flyer in the game as of this moment, but nonetheless it is also the most expensive flyer around. For the cost of one of those things, you can potentially get two Dakkajets.

And using your point of getting a single glance, a glance is still a glance which is big for vehicles, and with the combined might of the Ork army which is weirdly 'anti-air' in nature, you are going to bring down that jet much faster than any army in the game as of this moment (barring IG and their Hydras). Not to mention that having more heavier guns that could help the Lootas is much appreciated in the bigger picture as well.

With the new flyer rules in place, the more anti-air weaponry that can also double as guns that can shoot ground targets, the better it is for the army so that your units will be able to dish out more damage and not be overwhelmed by air superiority.

Arguleon-veq

Yes the dakkajet does get all those shots which equals 6 hits and 1 glance on any AV12 flyer. There is no benefit to hitting flyer side armour as it is the same as the front. When you run the numbers you see that the dakkajet loses out to pretty much every other flyer. As I've said, sure its nice against armies without anti air but that's about it, it really isn't worth the points when Orks have much better anti air options that can reliably deal with even large numbers of flyers. All those extra points could go on units that are points effective/units that will make your army perform better.

They are fun to use but from a competative standpoint just not worth it, you will never see them in any competative ork lists. If there ends up being a lot of other AV10 flyers around (that are effective), then they will be useful as they could down an AV10 flyer in 1 turn and so avoid return fire (providing they come in second).
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crisis_vyper

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on July 16, 2012, 07:26:57 AM
Yes the dakkajet does get all those shots which equals 6 hits and 1 glance on any AV12 flyer. There is no benefit to hitting flyer side armour as it is the same as the front. When you run the numbers you see that the dakkajet loses out to pretty much every other flyer. As I've said, sure its nice against armies without anti air but that's about it, it really isn't worth the points when Orks have much better anti air options that can reliably deal with even large numbers of flyers. All those extra points could go on units that are points effective/units that will make your army perform better.

They are fun to use but from a competative standpoint just not worth it, you will never see them in any competative ork lists. If there ends up being a lot of other AV10 flyers around (that are effective), then they will be useful as they could down an AV10 flyer in 1 turn and so avoid return fire (providing they come in second).

Flyers will come in bigger numbers as the edition comes by (especially if they are Necrons or IG as of this moment, and who knows what else will come out in 6th). And due to the power of the lootas in 6th, they will target your lootas first before anything else. Once those are gone they will have free reign over your forces. And if they are AV 11 flyers, your Ork Boyz and Nobs will be quite in a pinch to get rid of them reliably (even with the twin-linked dakaguns on the Nobs). Of course given that your Nobs will be killing all those that they could touch, it may not come as a direct disadvantage, but still it is a disadvantage indeed.

Vendettas are good anti-air and anti-tank crafts, but not good anti-infantry stuff. You will have to face off against Valks which has the firepower to punish your forces much more.

The lootas are the main anti-air unit in your army (heck anti-anything) and in the current edition, there is a need to diversify your forces when it comes to gunning down stuff for both ground and air targets. Rolling 5s to hit a flyer is always much better than rolling 6s to hit a flyer.