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Need a little help....

Started by DeaNos, June 09, 2012, 03:35:27 AM

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DeaNos

i have this so far.....


HQ

Autarch - 92 pts
mandiblasters
power weapon
avenger shuriken catapualt

Seer Council - 305 pts
Farseer - runes of witnessing, spirit stones, doom, fortune, mind war (160)
Warlock - conceal (40)
Warlock - destructor(35)
Warlock - embolden (30)
Warlock - enhance (40)
Waveserpent - TL shuriken cannon, twin linked catapults, spirit stones, vectored engines (130 pts)

TROOPS

5 Rangers - 95 pts

10 Dire Avengers - 157 pts
Dire sword, pistol, bladestorm.

ELITES

Fire Dragons - ....

FAST ATTACK

Shining Spears - .....

my game plan is to have the seer council and autarch in a wave serpent go down one flank choping everything they meet, including powerful characters. the rangers are to sit on the home oblective and pick off/ soften up some infantry while the DA advance unleashing torrentual fire backed up by fire dragons with the shining spears zooming around hitting MEQ units with the exrch star lance opening trrop transports. im looking at 1000 point list, i want to keep my HQ as is or make it a greater killing group. right now i feel it lacks a lot of anti tank and i will be out numbered im guessing.

this is my first eldar list ever so open up the citics and comments

thanks in advance :)

DeaNos

also thinking of adding in swooping hawks for haywire grenades. two groups of 6 maybe

Tom

Quote from: DeaNos on June 09, 2012, 03:35:27 AM
HQ
Autarch - 92 pts
mandiblasters
power weapon
avenger shuriken catapualt

Seer Council - 305 pts
Farseer - runes of witnessing, spirit stones, doom, fortune, mind war (160)
Warlock - conceal (40)
Warlock - destructor(35)
Warlock - embolden (30)
Warlock - enhance (40)
Waveserpent - TL shuriken cannon, twin linked catapults, spirit stones, vectored engines (130 pts)
I know you said you want to keep your HQ as it is but I'm going to be honest and say I don't think these 537 points are that well spent in a 1000 point list... First, eggs and baskets spring to mind, second, the seer council is a bit of a specialist group and an expensive one at that and third the Autarch seems like a very odd addition. 6 models that cost you about 400 points need to make a very special unit to be worthwhile and I'm not sure these are. I won't spend time explaining in more detail if you're really set on taking them but I think you might need to re-think your HQ here.

Quote from: DeaNos on June 09, 2012, 03:35:27 AM
TROOPS
5 Rangers - 95 pts

10 Dire Avengers - 157 pts
Dire sword, pistol, bladestorm.
The rangers are OK, I don't like that they're so static but I think they should be alright in cover somewhere as long as flamers don't turn up anywhere near them.

The Dire Avengers will be shot to bits before they get in range. With only an 18" gun they're going to have trouble getting into range without being shot at at least once and they won't come out of it too well with T3 and 4+ save. I think a wave serpent is a must for a lone dire avenger squad. I would also suggest the Exarch has dual catapults rather than the sword, you don't want them in CC and you do want them shooting.

Quote from: DeaNos on June 09, 2012, 03:35:27 AM
ELITES

Fire Dragons - ....

FAST ATTACK

Shining Spears - .....

Fire dragons should be kept basic and small, they're really a one-shot weapon and there's not much 5 fire dragons won't slag if they're in melta range... which again will be you're problem. Fire dragons aren't survivable, aren't fast and have a very short range. They need a tank. The falcon with holofields is fantastically durable and can sit back and fire away at vehicles before a target comes in range for the fire dragons.

I very much like Shining spears... but not in a 1000 point list. They're too expensive for what they do (monsters and small elite squads) and whilst they're very good at that you're not going to find targets for them at 1000 points.

Quote from: DeaNos on June 09, 2012, 03:39:29 AM
also thinking of adding in swooping hawks for haywire grenades. two groups of 6 maybe

Like the spears Hawks are expensive for what they do. I would not include them for anti-tank as I don't think they're survivable enough to get where you need them. I think their tank-hunting abilities are a bonus and they're best at removing small squads from the backfield that your opponent thought were safe then perhaps pouncing on isolated vehicles.

Just a few thoughts... basically you need to really consider that HQ slot, why are you so attached to a super-expensive and not very point-effective squad? What do you really expect them to do? I don't think they're going to chop everything they meet at all.

Consider them up against 5 assault terminators with storm shields for example, the council won't be able to get past the 2+ and the Autarch will be wounding on 5+ with the terminators still getting their 3+....
Council - 15 attacks (assuming you charge), 10 hits, 9.7 wounds (assuming doom), 1.6 unsaved
Autarch - 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2.22 wounds, 0.7 unsaved

3 terminators strike back, 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 0.6 unsaved (assuming fortune)

On average you're just winning that combat and that's against a squad that's half the cost of yours that's throwing out a low number of high strength power weapon attacks (just what you want to save with your re-rollable 4++).

What about 15 wyches? even cheaper than the terminators

Autarch - 6 attacks (assuming you charge), 4 hits, 3 wounds (assuming doom), 1.5 unsaved, 0.75 through FNP (assumed FNP)
15 wyches strike simultaneously - 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 1.85 unsaved (assuming fortune)
Council - 15 attacks (assuming wound allocated to Autarch), 10 hits, 9.7 wounds, 4.85 unsaved, 2.4 through FNP

Again you only just won that combat, this time against a squad that's almost a third of the cost of yours... now I may have made some errors above but I don't think so, I just think you might need to consider the HQ.

DeaNos

cheers for that, my plan with the hq was to create a unit that hits easy and first i know wounding on 5's but was hoping doom would help the autarch and witchblades wound on a two, although the enemy still gets there armour save... i was also hoping the farseer would use mind war to down another model in that unit either the seargent or a character model.

with the hq for eldar ive read everyone should be taking a farseer and i agree but what unit is it best to run him with?

its a shame with the shining spears becuase i really liked the idea of shooting the enemy up with strength six shots then charging to finnish them off.

ill have a reread thru the codex and make up a new plan.

but would u suggest taking two squads of guardians as trrops with a heavy platform and direavengers in a serpent for troops? if thats a good basis i can work with that and expand on it. HQ's would u suggest a farseer and a pheonix lord or something else.

Tom

Quote from: DeaNos on June 10, 2012, 02:10:59 AM
cheers for that, my plan with the hq was to create a unit that hits easy and first i know wounding on 5's but was hoping doom would help the autarch and witchblades wound on a two, although the enemy still gets there armour save... i was also hoping the farseer would use mind war to down another model in that unit either the seargent or a character model.
Trouble is that if you use mind war you lose your run move so might not be sure of making it into assault and it's not that reliable. The biggest disadvantage would be not casting doom or fortune both of which I think you need in the assault.

Quote from: DeaNos on June 10, 2012, 02:10:59 AM
with the hq for eldar ive read everyone should be taking a farseer and i agree but what unit is it best to run him with?

I always take a Farseer because I think they're the best value HQ unit... well Eldrad probably is but not everyone likes using characters, I don't usually. I keep my Farseer in a wave serpent with a unit of Dire Avengers, usually give him Doom and Guide. Generally speaking keeping him in a vehicle is a good idea as they're squishy otherwise. The exceptions are if you keep the Farseer in a unit of Fortuned wraithguard or seer council. Both of those get very expensive and although they are very resilient I don't think they're generally a good idea at 1000 points.

Quote from: DeaNos on June 10, 2012, 02:10:59 AM
its a shame with the shining spears becuase i really liked the idea of shooting the enemy up with strength six shots then charging to finnish them off.
That's tricky because the range is only 6" which just happens to be your charge range. Unless you're right in close (and so started the turn only just outside 12" which is risky) you run the risk of killing off the models in charge range leaving your spears exposed. That and 3 S6 shots isn't that spectacular...

Quote from: DeaNos on June 10, 2012, 02:10:59 AM
but would u suggest taking two squads of guardians as trrops with a heavy platform and direavengers in a serpent for troops? if thats a good basis i can work with that and expand on it. HQ's would u suggest a farseer and a pheonix lord or something else.
I'd recommend two wave serpents full of dire avengers and a farseer with doom, guide, spirit stones and perhaps runes of witnessing as your basic block to start with. At 1000 points a single HQ is enough.

Saulus

Everyone takes Farseers but not everyone takes seer councils. THe Seer's power comes from its ability to buff certain units curing certain times of the game. You've got some Avengers about to bladestorm a swarm of somethings, guide a doom ensure that its a 1 turn affair. Next turn the pathfinders are taking down a MC, get some extra AP1 hits and rends with guide and doom the next turn. Having that seer in a vehicle helps to bus around for that 6 inch range on guide.

I run one seer with my Avengers (for such example as above) in a Falcon (can guide the Falcon while flying around, doom targets of opportunities). I also take another seer with my "Ghost Council", a bunch of wraithguard in a serpent (an expensive tougher variant of a bunch of dragons, which is standard I feel). Each Eldar unit must make their shots count and do so much damage that the strikes back matter less and less. That's the main reason why mechanization is even more important for Eldar. Notice as well that Imperial Guard veterans tend to always have armour transport? Same reason, high point cost, high damage potential, low survivability outside the armour.

To add a little option to Tom's fine suggestion, every time you want something death-starry and expensive, you swap out a Dire avenger squad with guardians, and scrap the serpent to cover the costs (and may I suggest EML, plasma mode is pinning and requires less BS to operate effectively).

Just keep a focus on the Eldar being an army of specialists that are good at what they do. Dragons AT, Banshees MeQ, guardians dying. And its up to you and the farseer to prioritize which you need when. If you invest too much in one unit, you begin to relatively lack another unit's abilities. So with a big Seer Council and Spears you've got two expensive units that run up to something and SMASH it in melee. But that cost you a Fire prism for support? Some guardians to die or at least avenger your pathfinders on the obj.?
No fear. No mercy. No matter what.