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Codex: Space Marine Up for Pre-Order!

Started by Begel Dverl, August 03, 2013, 04:56:54 PM

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Thantos

Yea, lets not jump the gun here. Grav guns may indeed wound vrs armor saves. So your terminators become T2. But if grav guns are S2 AP- then it really doesnt look that bad, and its the equivalent of shooting termis with a bolter. Perhaps more of a problem for Wraithlords and Riptides, but i dont reckon it will unbalance the game (...much more  :shifty:) Plus they are already out at forgeworld with rules in IA?

The new suit of armor with chest mounted weapons which has no mention in any of the fluff... annoys me however. I dont like how they keep doing new stuff and rewriting fluff to suit the new models. There are plenty of things which need a model - the Stormbird, the Tarantula, the Reaper. Without inventing something unheard of before. Id prefer them to do great minis for these forgotten units.

Personally im going to ignore the bits i dont like and keep building my Falcon Guard jump marines chapter ;D Perhaps ill get some nice jump pack traits and tactics to play with in the new dex.




Try and keep it civil Rej, we understand your frustrated with the GW bashing, and i agree it gets a bit much sometimes, since we all want to be part of a positive hobby community. If we wanted to spit bile at GW all day - we'd go to Frothers Unite. But make your point without personal insults please.


The Man They Call Jayne

Grav guns are from the heresy series I think. A series where the imperium is at is height of technology. Sticking the stuff into 40k just imbalances the whole thing. We can be reasonable here, but these are unlikey to be less powerful than a bolted in terms of S. AP could be - which would be nice, but it still renders all the MCs they have been releasing useless. People who have just spent £50-75 on a now T2/3 pointsink now have very fragile glass cannons.
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Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Ok, from what I can see so far this is a very mixed bag for first wave rumours. I love the idea of it not being Codex: Ultramarines and a potential return to Traits. I may actually be able to get my 4th ed Chapter back without having to use a separate codex for the First Company. :P

The grav weapons I'm a bit iffy on. It depends on how widely available and how much they cost as to how I'll react to them.

The new units though, as Thantos said, there's plenty of stuff that doesn't have models which they could use without introducing new ones which have no precedent at all. Prime example would be the Tyrannofex. It wasn't needed, they could've quite easily just kept Carnifexes more useful than a chocolate fireguard while bringing in the Trygon, but that would've been sensible so didn't happen. Hopefully soe existing units will get models too in order to counter this.

So far not terrible and could still go either way. Not entirely sure about the idea of a second tactical unit though. As has been said, the whole point of Tactical Squads, and Marines as a whole really, is they're all-rounders. They're not supposed to excel in 1 area. If it's specialists and they're limited, then fair enough, if not then GW'll have their work cut out justifying it as anything other than money grabbing.
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May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

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Mkoll wins.

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Narric

Rej, I apologise up front that my Marine & GW bashing can be harsh, and more often than not uncalled for.

Here is my stance.
I do not dislike Warhammer 40k, & Fantasy as games as a whole. They are great outlets for my creativity, and can be pretty inspirational (Horus Heresy that I've read so far, being an example). I however, do dislike GW as a company. I'll first use Codexi and Rulebooks as an example.

Today, the Warhammer 40k Rulebook is £45. This isn't much of a problem, if you purchase the Dark Vengeance Box set, as you get the obvious duo of armies, which do look pretty good, and it is a reasonable price. However, a similar book printed independantly, in a bulk of 250copies, would cost you £34 (through Azimuth print).
Codexi as we all know, are now £30 per book, and supplemets are the same IIRC. Thats roughly a 100page book, full colour, feature three unique sections for a specific army or race. Now I could take a PDF containing the exact same content, and purchae in bulk six thousand, or sixty thousand copies of a given book, a individually they would cost ~£23.
Now I understand GW is a company, and they need to make a profit to meet their costs, but charging an axtra £7-9 per Codex or Rulebook seems a bit overkill.

Another thing I don't like is the limitations of the kits, combined the overabundance of variety of kits, that pretty much kills any real need to be creative and do conversions. Notice how more people are going with just a single kit for a single squad?
Why bother converting a truly awesome Sternguard squad from the contents of a Command Squad box and your own collection of bitz, when you can just buy a Metal/Finecast/Plastic kit that is specifically for making Sternguard?

Then there is also how they advertise on their website. Did nobody else notice that during the Apocalypse 6th ed release, the Baneblade was treated like a new release, yet the Ork Stompa was not? I'm not saying this becuase I'm anti-imperial, but I would have preferred to have seen the Ork kit, as it would have given the release the image of greater variety, instead the Imperial armies were the most numerous. What are people going to buy? what they see the most of. Their sales are defined by their releases, which are in turn defined by their own preferrences, which are defined by sales. Oh so it seems.

The last thing that pisses me off, is how they treat their own community. When I first started, I remember their being community driven campaigns. Anyone remember the "Nemesis Crown" campaign for Fantasy? That got me into collective Dwarfs! Their site was split between a store, and a hobbyists dream. You could see what their staff were up to, you could understand what they did. GW felt like it would except people into its ranks. Now the website is just a webstore. its hobby pages only done to increase sales artificially.
And in this category is all the lawsuits I've heard GW prosecute against people. Chapterhouse being a more well known case, and the lawsuit against the american writer being a recent one. The case against Chapter house was a bit overbearing. CH were simply supplyiing products that GW had yet to even hint at releasing. CH was enabling Hobbyists to field the best builds to play the game GW had made. Do I think CH didn't deserve what happened? In some ways, yes. They used names and referneces to 40k and Fantasy like hashtags are used on twitter nowadays. in a way it was/is making money of anothers' IP. DO I think GW should have takenCH to court? NO! The Designers of Chapter House should have been treated as equals, and for the more skilled, offered places within GW/FW. The Lawsuit against the American Writer for using the term "Space Marine" wasn't the act of a company that cared for its community, or how it presents itself. It gave GW the appearence of a bully who picks the pockets of the weaker kids, just 'cause. Did the Writers' work have anything to do with 40k or Warhamer at all? not as far as I heard. What grounds did GW really have for persuing this?

I understand this may not seem the best of reasons, and I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with them. However, this is my thoughts on the matter, and unless I see a true change in the right direction from GW, I will not change my opinion.

Arguleon-veq

#19
The Grav Guns are fine, DE Poison doesnt stop monster spam, Kroot Sniper Insanity doesnt stop it, Grav Guns wont stop it. They really arent very powerful.

Lets see what they actually get before we start calling them broken. Eldar didnt seem too bad at first but its becoming clear that they are utterly brutal on a Tau level. Marines have been very weak for a very long time.

Something that is happening in 40K and Fantasy these days is that there will be a book that is considered weak for years and they suddenly start to do very well as the meta changes. Nids were considered poor for a long time and then they recently had about a year of being a very powerful army again without getting a new book [they are back to poor now though thanks to Eldar and Tau!]. In Fantasy the current Orcs and Gobs were considered pretty poor and now they are winning big tournaments pretty often.

So not only should we not call out books as broken/weak before we even see them, we need to actually let them settle too. 
X-Wing Tournaments;
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The Man They Call Jayne

I thought Eldar were evil from the moment I picked up the codex. I was thrashed by a rookie with the dex against a fairly sturdy Tau list because of Jet Bike Spam.
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Deraj

I hate agreeing with something as inflammatorily worded as what rej did, but I agree wholeheartedly. People are blowing stupid things way out of proportion, or just complaining with approximately half the story, or... complaining because apparently that's their real hobby, not playing a game, painting models, etc. If people don't play the game the exact same way or for the exact same reason, they're idiots. And to keep being on GW's side: I would much rather have the GW of today than the GW of 5-10 years ago. We get tons of choice, new codices, and yes, change.

Also; we've had graviton weapons for more than a year now in forgeworld, though those ones make you take a strength test or take a wound and have the concussive special rule. I'm just hoping either the primogenitors being in the codex or having supplements is something that happens, that would be great for fluff players, and I loved the farsight one.

crisis_vyper

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on August 04, 2013, 08:17:03 PM
The Grav Guns are fine, DE Poison doesnt stop monster spam, Kroot Sniper Insanity doesnt stop it, Grav Guns wont stop it. They really arent very powerful.

That grav gun would be utterly horrible vs hordes (5+-6+ saves).

Quote
Lets see what they actually get before we start calling them broken. Eldar didnt seem too bad at first but its becoming clear that they are utterly brutal on a Tau level. Marines have been very weak for a very long time.

Always considered them strong, but the lack in some departments can be rather worrisome (Hard to kill 2+ saves reliably in close combat). But of course that saying Dark Eldar allies would cover that gap.

Quote
Something that is happening in 40K and Fantasy these days is that there will be a book that is considered weak for years and they suddenly start to do very well as the meta changes. Nids were considered poor for a long time and then they recently had about a year of being a very powerful army again without getting a new book [they are back to poor now though thanks to Eldar and Tau!]. In Fantasy the current Orcs and Gobs were considered pretty poor and now they are winning big tournaments pretty often.

So not only should we not call out books as broken/weak before we even see them, we need to actually let them settle too.

Agreed. I find Tau firebases a little too short for comfort, especially when several armies outranges them in shooting. That and a castling Tau has very poor options once they are surrounded.

The Man They Call Jayne

Castling Tau CAN have it's benefits once it comes to being charged. Having 3 other units within 6" of the charge unit will destroy almost anything, especially if you have some plasma in there as well.
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crisis_vyper

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on August 05, 2013, 11:47:10 AM
Castling Tau CAN have it's benefits once it comes to being charged. Having 3 other units within 6" of the charge unit will destroy almost anything, especially if you have some plasma in there as well.

Realistically, I find 6s to hit iffy, even with all that Tau overwatch special rule. Not to mention that there are a whole lot of things out there that can make a mockery of a firebase in the game these days. Wave Serpents, Heldrakes, Manticores, the list goes on and on. Even with Skyfire and all that Str 7 spam, all it takes is a good strike to open a gap for the end game.





The Man They Call Jayne

Markerlights, you can overwatch at BS 3 or even 4 if you use them right.

But im going off topic.

Right now, with what I see here, I do not like the way it is heading.
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crisis_vyper

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on August 05, 2013, 07:11:11 PM
Markerlights, you can overwatch at BS 3 or even 4 if you use them right.

But im going off topic.

Right now, with what I see here, I do not like the way it is heading.

Markerlight tokens need 6s as well, not the most reliable of ways to shoot. And back to topic.

Personally as to the direction of the rumours, Marines need something for me to have the kick to fight them again. :P

Chris

As a dedicated marine player, I'm quite excited about these rumours... Although I am surprised over how small the gap between rumours circling and release day.

I'll wait and see if the rumours for a september release is true, it could hold off my bid to start Chaos marines for a good while!

salamut2202

#28
Quote from: Narric on August 04, 2013, 06:27:28 PMAnother thing I don't like is the limitations of the kits, combined the overabundance of variety of kits, that pretty much kills any real need to be creative and do conversions.
Good, I'm no good at conversions.

*shoots gun in air*

Am I the only one around here who did not immediately hate the idea of grav weaponry? I guess when I read it I didn't immediately assume whole squads of vets having them, infact I didn't see them being much more abundant then combi-weapons, except may expensive. It's a cool and fun idea, that you increase the gravity in a localized area and so what you wear can very much be a detriment to you. That and that it makes gaunts, kroot, cultists and guard seem like heavy infantry when used against them, which is quite a draw back. Interestingly enough, if it is more abundant that combi-weaponry than the codex keeps itself in check in the way of a wave of codex creeps seeing that what this codex is effective against is.... other heavy infantry!

I'm far more worried about
QuoteThere is a new armour type that at first glance looks to be somewhere between a terminator and a dreadnought - looking more closely, it appears to go over the marine's power armour however.
...Dreadknight is a terminator inside a terminator and most who I've encountered laugh at the concept outright. Is no one else trepedous about more space marines inside space marines (no homo...well maybe some homo) at all? I mean I thought Space marines had their elite heavy infantry. You know, necron warriors have immortals and lych guard, tyranid gaunts have tyranid warriors, eldar have wraithguard, space marines have terminators! I mean who really thought  of the idea of ;

"You know what I think is missing in the space marine armoury? Well armed, elite, heavy infantry!" I will name him Pillock Mcdipshit.

Now Pillock was probably the  one who thought that making a plastic nightwing would be too awesome so Eldar magically was out of a fighter, that tau who were into multifaceted and mobile warfare needed a biggah suit and eviedently had no seen the land speeder when he thought there was a role for the Stormtalon to fill or that the thunderhawk was too good not to have in the normal game so Pillock drew up the concept for its ugly thalidomide brother . Pillock probably gets paid a lot though, so he knows what he's doing. I do fear the next daemon engine that Pillock will dream up though, seeing he's now into the retro thing into taking Eldar Knights and Epice Chaos Warengines into the modern fray.

In Pillock we trust.

Begel Dverl

Has anyone assumed that these Grav-Weapons may be limited or even one of those Legendary Pieces of Wargear?

And, with all seriousness, I assume they could be taken by certain Heroes like Techmarines or Captains.

And besides, it's not like the Grav-Weapon can snipe your stuff from the other side of the board. It's probably a mid-range weapon like 12" or 18" or something.