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Points for Stats - A Thought Experiment

Started by Narric, January 03, 2014, 10:00:10 AM

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Narric

This idea kinda started with the Sisters of Battle: First Impressions thread where Cofffee Grunt stated that there is only 2pts Difference between a Space Marine and a Sister of battle, despite the SM having +1 WS, S, T, I, and They Shall Know No Fear.

Here are the rules for this little thought experiment, which could possibly result in a cinematic style cost for units of the game.

Rules
- 1pt per stat pt per model, +5pts for each Universal Special Rule, and 7pts for each Race Specific special rule
- Weapons are the same as model statline lines, with a change being 1pt per 6" of Range and Templates being 3pts, Rapid Fire is assumed standard so opts, Assault is 1pt per shot over 1, and Heavy is 2pts per shot. Pistols halves the weapon total. Each additional Special Rule costs 5pts regardless of rule.
- CCWs and Armour are included in the

To start this off I've done it for a couple of units from various Codexi

Tau Fire Warrior
25pts per Model
Pulse Rifle = 12pts
Carbine = 15pts
Pistol = 4.5pts

Tau Fire Warrior - TODex v475
25pts per Model
Pulse Rifle = 16pts
Carbine = 16pts
Pistol = 4.5pts
Def Nades = 10pts

Tactical Space Marine
49pts per model
Boltgun = 10pts
Bolt Pistol = 4pts
Frag Nade = 10pts
Krak Nade = 11pts

Chaos Cultists
25pts per model
Autopistol = 2.5pts
Autogun = 7pts

Sister of Battle
38pts per model
weapons same as Marines

The first thing I found strange was how the TOdex actually made the Rifle and Carbine equal, meaning a straight swap actually makes sense. Secoondly, Fire Warriors and Cultists should cost the same, but Fire Warriors pay more for their standard Gear.

The difference between a SoB and an Astartes is also much wider, becoming 11pts of difference to the codex stated 2pts.

I currently only have rulebook statlines which is an absolute pain to go through 'll best honest, but which other units/models should I run through this test next?

CoffeeGrunt

#1
I think the problem here is that you're taking these units in a vacuum.

For example, compare the Fire Warrior and Space Marine. For 5pts more than the cost of a Shas'la, you get +2WS, +1S/T, +2I, +1Ld, +1Sv, They Shall Know No Fear, Krak Grenades, Frag Grenades, and a Bolt Pistol.

The Shas'la gets a Pulse Rifle, with +1S and +6".

Seems like a raw deal, right? Especially given how under equipped the Fire WArrior seems to be in comparison.

However, you must bear in mind the rest of the Codex and that unit's place in it. With Markerlight support, that Fire Warrior can become more accurate than the Astartes, as well as Ignoring Cover. 12 Shas'la with 6 Pathfinders costs about 180, the cost of a fully-manned and well-equipped Tac squad.

If you pointed both of them at a Guardsman squad in Ruins, the Space Marines would probably kill one or two, more if the Guardsmen don't Go to Ground. The Fire Warriors would likely remove the entire enemy squad.

The Fire Warrior's role is not the same as the Space Marine's. Each Astartes squad is self-contained and can do anything pretty well, but gets no support from the army as a whole, and doesn't support them back. Fire Warriors are there to capture Objectives. If you want them to have a chance of taking out vehicles, you have to pay 2pts per model for EMP Grenades, and then they're only 3pts cheaper. Give them Bonding Knife, and you've got a Fire Warrior that costs the same as a Sister, but operates in an entirely different way.

Sisters are as well equipped as Space Marines, and only really lose out in Close Combat. However, their ability to grab special weapons is vastly superior, I believe a 5 girl squad can take twice the burniness that a 10 man Astartes squad can. They can take Repressors to get an AV13 front transport to rush into battle with, and with Fire Points and the Heavy Flamer on the Repressor, can torch entire squads. They even have a token 6+ Invuln, which is still something, if not much.

The thing is that you can't charge them all for different things. Supporting Fire isn't as good as They Shall Know No Fear, but both beat something like Shield of Faith or Shadow in the Warp.


Some well-reasoned arguments here.  Have your first point of Karma!   ;D
-MT.
The only constant in the universe is change; the Wise adapt.

Narric

Dude, the costs are compared to each, not actual codex costs. under these rules, a Fire Warrior with his basic equipment (do they get Def Nades and or Pistols in new codex?) is only 37pts, while a Marine is 84pts including his rules and gear.

Considering a units place would essentially throw out any kind of unbias rules, such as the ones I posted, and make this entire exercise completely useless, as then we're just comparing GW given Codexi.

Another thing consider is that Spec & Heavy Weapons would have adjusted costs also, making some more cost effective than others and thus changing how an army list builder would consider for his list.

The last thing I can point out is I don't have full access to 6th ed codexi, so Iim litterally working with bear bones. The units I've used are either from an Older codex (Tau & Sisters), Memory (SM) or the Codex in front of me (Cultists). Had I access to my full collection of Cedoxi, I could probably make this better, but as it stands I'm working with what I've got.

CoffeeGrunt

Tau get Defensive Grenades as standard, but no Pulse Pistols, (why would they use them?) I'd definitely recommend looking into the new Codex before undertaking this sort of exercise, as working from an obsolete dataset probably isn't helping out.

The unit in the context of the Codex is entirely important, you can't just wash that away. A Marine isn't good enough to be more than twice the price of a Fire Warrior, not even close.
The only constant in the universe is change; the Wise adapt.

Unusual Suspect

Base point costs do not translate all that well.

A Bolter on a BS of 2 is worth less than a Bolter on a BS of 4.  And a Bolter for every 20 points is not equivalent to a Bolter for every 40 points.

Not all stats are equal, either.  The wound statpoint is worth significantly more than any other stat point in the game.  A Fire Warrior with 5 wounds is not appropriately costed at a mere 4 point increase, in the same way a Space Marine with 10 attacks is not appropriately costs at +9 points, especially given the scale of points you're using (I was initially conflating the term you're using with the traditional WH40k points, but they definitely have different scales of power).

I like the idea of a universal point system, but I'm totally with CoffeeGrunt on this one.  Context is necessary to judge the balance of a given statline or a given weapon.  In practical terms, I think this would be passable only on a codex-by-codex basis, with stat differences and special rules costed on a case-by-base basis as appropriate for the context each Codex provides.
I you private dancer.

Narric

Kinda wish I had my copy of Rogue trader, which actually gave detail on how to calculate a models cost by its stats. Got some weird fractions in that house of mirrors :P

I also can see where you both are coming from. It was an idea and I figured I might as well get it out of my system.

Unusual Suspect

It sounds like an idea that will require some modification and localization, not necessarily an idea to be abandoned!  ;)

I for one would love to see a balanced guide for developing one's own units.
I you private dancer.

DEF Knight

another thing to consider (aside from context of codex) is that the effectiveness of stats or equipment does not scale linearly, so the price shouldn't either.

Some stats have certain thresholds of usefulness where a +1 could be more or less useful (armour saves are a good example, or weapons strength for armour pen purposes). Some provide diminishing returns (like WS or BS), others plateau altogether (like strength or toughness) or are wildly dependant on other stats (multiple wounds are far, far more useful to a high toughness model than a low toughness model)

Wargamer

At the risk of dredging an oldish thread...

Long, long ago I did a Dogs of War Generator for 6th / 7th Edition Fantasy where you could build your own forces. The beauty of it was that, back then, you could extrapolate the value of any given weapon, stat or ability using the core rulebooks and the formula worked for most factions (Lizardmen and Chaos screwed it up as I recall).

In order for it to work, however, you had to start at Naked Human - M4, Ws3, Bs3, S3, T3, W1, I3, A1 Ld7, hand weapon. All values are extrapolated from there (ie: -1 Ws = -0.5pts, +1 Ws = +1pt).

After a certain point, abilities / weapons become more expensive. For example, a greatsword might be +2pts, but for Cavalry it jumps to +4pts.

A similar model could work here.

Also, Narric, I can pull Rogue Trader out for you if you like. Won't be until tonight though.


The issue with 40K, of course, is that gear is often universally priced. In Warhammer a Spear is worth more in the hands of a stronger model. In 40K, a Bolter is often more expensive in weaker armies (ie: Guard ICs historically pay twice as much for a bolt pistol as Space Marines do).
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

Quote from: Liberate the Warhammers
People who have no sense of Sportsmanship have NO PLACE designing any Gaming system

CoffeeGrunt

Bolt Pistols come standard for Space Marines, though...
The only constant in the universe is change; the Wise adapt.

Wargamer

Quote from: CoffeeGrunt on April 15, 2014, 01:53:15 PM
Bolt Pistols come standard for Space Marines, though...
They didn't always. Back in 3rd Edition Space Marine HQs lacked any gear at all and had to pay 1pt for a bolt pistol. Guard Officers had to cough up 3-4pts.
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

Quote from: Liberate the Warhammers
People who have no sense of Sportsmanship have NO PLACE designing any Gaming system

Narric

RT would be useful for this, and is where I got the idea from, if only from memory. I have my own copy, but annoying its in storage and inaccessible :P

Wargamer

#12
Well RT also used Save Mods, which are fairer and more easily priced than AP, so if you're going to do this I'd personally make the rule switch for sanity's sake. Plus, it'd make actually playing the game more fun.

But as a rule of thumb I would try the following:

Base stats = Ws3 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv- for 6pts.

Ws / Bs / I = +1pt to 4, +2pts to 6, +4pts thereafter.
S / T  = +2pts to 4, +3pts to 6, +5pts thereafter.
A = +2pts to 2, +3pts to 4, +5pts thereafter.
Ld = +2pts per point.

Weapons and armour: models that cost 10-14pts pay 1.5x normal price for weapons, armour and special rules.
15-19 pay 2x normal price, and so on adding +0.5x every time.

Characters and multi-wound models need more thought.
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

Quote from: Liberate the Warhammers
People who have no sense of Sportsmanship have NO PLACE designing any Gaming system