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6th edition daemons :(

Started by Chicop76, July 28, 2012, 05:59:36 PM

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Chicop76

I believe wit a possibilty of 5 flying monstrous creatures swooping down with 2 or 3 possible extra flying creatures added from allying from Chaos Marines I was thinking this army would be boss in 6th, but the more I read and look at all the rules I am string to realize this may not be the case.

1. At first I thought that I could deep strke with my MCs in swoop mode, but I read you have to move over x distance to swoop. Meaning my Tzeentch flying MCs might get blown during deep strike before being able to swoop, yet a swooping Fateweaver would be an awesome sight to behold.

2. Khorne took a hit. My weapons being ap 3 hurts my play style. Before I used Khorne to deal with storm sheilds and terms in general. Now they would do nothing against my hated foe. Another problem is lossing the extra intitiative on the charge. Big change on my charging Bloodthirster.

3. +5 feel no pain for Nurgle :(.

4. Flamers of Tzeentch looks more attractive thanks to overwatch. I'm more eagar to take larger squads which can pretty much wipe out any unit that dumb enough to charge them after deep strike.

That is a few of the changes I noticed. Although the fact you come in through reserves faster does enhance the army as well.


knightperson

Daemons in 6th edition can rock. I just came from a local tournament where my Daemon list actually took first! Khorne and Nurgle might have been weakened a bit, but the Tzeentch / Slaanesh (mostly) alliance that I've been playing is quite strong. At 1750 points, my list consisted of two chariot Heralds of Tzeentch with Breath of Chaos and Master of Sorcery, a Lord of Change upgraded with the same, 4 squads of 7 horrors (one with The Changeling because he's fun), 2 squads of 12 Daemonettes, 2 squads of 3 Flamers of Tzeentch, a squad of 4 Screamers, and a flying Daemon Prince of Khorne.

I should note that the day before the tournament I got my grubby mitts on a copy of White Dwarf with the Chaos Daemons Official Update, which improved the Flamers and Screamers. With the TO's assurance that such things were admissible in the tournament, I raced home to fiddle with my list a tiny bit. Flamers got cheaper and gained an extra wound, but their invulnerable save got downgraded to a 5+. Screamers got more expensive, but got 3 melee attacks at AP2 with armorbane and the ability to strafe units while turbo-boosting. I haven't had an opportunity to try them yet, but the WD update also had rules for 3 types of Slaanesh chariot, at least one of which is truly terrifying.

Anyway, things that make the Daemons very strong in 6th Edition:

Fearless no longer comes with the No Retreat rule. Gone are the days when a space marine or two will get to grips with a Pink Horror squad and kill them off twice as fast as they should because of all the No Retreat wounds. We lost the ability to Go To Ground, even voluntarily, and we don't have the option of voluntarily falling back out of melee with a Dreadnought, but this is a VERY beneficial trade for us.

Deep Strike Mishaps only kill a unit 1/6 of the time rather than 1/3. I still managed to award First Blood to my opponent via Mishap in 2 of 3 games, but mostly because my good luck was being spent on other die rolls.

Overwatch in general. At least the shooty daemons like Horrors or Flamers can no longer be safely eliminated by a single model with decent melee stats. A decent-sized Horror squad, even with snap fire, can pose a threat to a lone Space Marine, so assaulting Tzeentch units is no longer an auto-win.

Related to the above, Breath of Chaos can be used in Overwatch. I can not possibly overstate how useful this is! Even a single Flamer is dangerous for an enemy to assault no matter what the assaulting unit is. Flamers have to be dispatched in shooting, and now that they have 2 wounds each that takes more firepower than it used to.

With the new hull point rules, glancing vehicles to death with Breath of Chaos is actually viable. With some reasonably lucky Deep Strike rolls (neatly balanced by TWO mishap-deaths) in my 3rd game, 2 squads of Flamers killed a BloodClaw Dreadnought in a single round of shooting, while my Lord of Change glanced another one twice, then finished it off with a B of C overwatch.

Daemons have more access to Flying Monstrous Creatures than most other armies. With 2 in HQ and 3 in Heavy Support, we could conceivably field 5 of them, which would be a decent counter to flyers. In my games the FMC's successfully Vector Struck several units, some of them flyers, although they didn't actually kill any of them. Much of that can be blamed on poor dice rolls and my choice of relatively weak monsters. Both my Lord of Change and my Daemon Prince were "only" Strength 6, which makes it hard to damage AV11 flyers, but a Bloodthirster or two with Unholy Might "might" (pun noticed but unintentional) do better.




I've been a fan of Breath of Chaos for quite a while now, and the changes to it in 6th Edition have only increased my love. While B of C no longer bypasses Feel No Pain, the fact that it can wreck vehicles rather than just slowing them down for a turn is huge. And as I mentioned earlier, Breath of Chaos Overwatch is wonderful!
Cured of what I'm suffering from, but suffering from the cure.

Chicop76

I need to find that WD update for my army.

Anyway Boc looks to be worth the price tag more than.ever. when you say flamers are cheaper I am curious if they are now cheaper than the breath of chaos upgrade, if so that would be insane.

The two elements mentioned above seemed to had benefited a lot from the new rules. Besides taking Nurgle and Khorne HQ and Heavy Support I do not see the need to field them anymore. Daemonettes are now beter than taking letters due to many reasons, mainly rending is now ap 2. Rending is much better now since you can not allocate away the rending hits like befoe, now you take the rending hits and the regular hits which will greatly improve rending models .

With the new alliance rules I not see the point in even taking plague bearers when you can now take plague marines instead. The marnes now offer more versitility and cheaper icons to deep strike from. A pure nurgle marine lis

t can now take Epi aka the tallyman. Nurgle Marines with a chance of a 3+ feel no pain save, which only str 10 weapons can ignore it would be some beardy mischeaf indead. I have to look to see if Nurgle bikers would get the fnp, if so nothing would be able to negate that fnp roll unless it's an attack that removes them like a force weapon. One thought would to add Fateweaver, so shooting at Nurgle marines could possibly be a re rollable 3+ save with a 3+ feel no pain, make sure Fate weaver is moving over 12" so the enemy would need 6s to hit on top of a re rollable 3+ invulnerable save.

Another fact is now ap 1 hurts v ehicles much better than before. Daemons is the only army besides guard that can deploy a high amount of ap 1 long range mobile shooting. Almost 20 ap 1 weapons with a range of 24" can be deployed with most of the models can easily move 12_ 24 inches away.

I think my gripe is that I lost my back up Khorne punch. I me@ why bother with bloodcrushers now for one. Skulltaker is now more viable than a regular hearld due to rending on a 4+ since his basic attacks are changed to ap 3 now.

The gtg issue was only for my +5 invulneranle and in some cases my horrors when they was in 4+ terrain. It doesn't hurt Daemons too much, but it hurts my bugs greatly since that's all I do is gtg with my gaunts which alternate with the 4+ feel no pain gaunts which causes all my gaunts to have a 3 or 4 plus save.

With Chaos allies you can run with 6 flying Mcs, 1 Dameon HQ MC, 1 Marine Pince HQ, 1 Greater Daemon summoned HQ, and 3 Heavy Daemon MC princes.  Besides Eldar and Eldar I think the two Chaos armies have the most synergy out of any possible alliance.


Pottsey

Quote from: Chicop76 on July 29, 2012, 10:32:18 AM
Another fact is now ap 1 hurts v ehicles much better than before.
Who so? It looks to me to be exactly the same as before.

Chicop76

Quote from: Pottsey on July 29, 2012, 11:39:05 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on July 29, 2012, 10:32:18 AM
Another fact is now ap 1 hurts v ehicles much better than before.
Who so? It looks to me to be exactly the same as before.

Ap 1 weapons is +2 on the vehicle damage chart, while in last edition it was +1 on the damage chart.


Will's on Fire

Quote from: Chicop76 on July 29, 2012, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: Pottsey on July 29, 2012, 11:39:05 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on July 29, 2012, 10:32:18 AM
Another fact is now ap 1 hurts v ehicles much better than before.
Who so? It looks to me to be exactly the same as before.

Ap 1 weapons is +2 on the vehicle damage chart, while in last edition it was +1 on the damage chart.

But it required a 4 on the old chart with ap1 to kill a vehicle, and it still requires a 4. It's the same chance of killing the vehicle.

- Will

Cammerz

Quote from: Will Vas Fire on July 29, 2012, 12:26:30 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on July 29, 2012, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: Pottsey on July 29, 2012, 11:39:05 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on July 29, 2012, 10:32:18 AM
Another fact is now ap 1 hurts v ehicles much better than before.
Who so? It looks to me to be exactly the same as before.

Ap 1 weapons is +2 on the vehicle damage chart, while in last edition it was +1 on the damage chart.

But it required a 4 on the old chart with ap1 to kill a vehicle, and it still requires a 4. It's the same chance of killing the vehicle.

- Will

If you penetrate a vehicle with an AP1 weapon (I'm thinking Tau railguns here), there is now a 50/50 chance of it exploding. This is a bit better than wrecking it (especially if its a transport), it isn't a massive improvement but at least you don't leave your opponent with a nice big piece of LoS-blocking cover, instead there's just a crater to slow them down.

Pottsey

Quote from: Cammerz on July 29, 2012, 01:37:15 PM
Quote from: Will Vas Fire on July 29, 2012, 12:26:30 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on July 29, 2012, 12:24:22 PM
Quote from: Pottsey on July 29, 2012, 11:39:05 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on July 29, 2012, 10:32:18 AM
Another fact is now ap 1 hurts v ehicles much better than before.
Who so? It looks to me to be exactly the same as before.

Ap 1 weapons is +2 on the vehicle damage chart, while in last edition it was +1 on the damage chart.

But it required a 4 on the old chart with ap1 to kill a vehicle, and it still requires a 4. It's the same chance of killing the vehicle.

- Will

If you penetrate a vehicle with an AP1 weapon (I'm thinking Tau railguns here), there is now a 50/50 chance of it exploding. This is a bit better than wrecking it (especially if its a transport), it isn't a massive improvement but at least you don't leave your opponent with a nice big piece of LoS-blocking cover, instead there's just a crater to slow them down.
A 50/50 chance of exploding is the same as last edition with an AP1 weapon. EDITl: I see what you mean no wreck for cover but same odds to kill the vehicle.

Warptide

You can swoop in deepstrike. It's contentious, but the Nova Open Tournament guys are faq'ing it so you can. The precendent is that vehicles are always considered going at cruising speed. But since it's a flyer it can go faster. I believe.



crisis_vyper

Well, got my hands on the update and I have to say that thanks to Slaaneshi chariots, they are the only army that can spam chariots like mad and their chariots are better than the average chariot too. If you want to go crazy you can have 15 Chariots in a list (and 12 of them being the new Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh). Those things will mow down (pun intended) any infantry unit (and even light vehicles). With Icons around the army, you can ensure that those chariots will land to become a big chariot killer thing. And they are quite cheap units too.

I am already drooling over the countless 4d6 impact hits + attacks from the Exalted Alluress/ Herald of Slaanesh.......


As for the Tzeentch flamers, I always loved them and I started my Tzeentch army because of them. And GW decided to make them even more fun now and improved upon the Screamers to such an extent that they are now really awesome. I love my Tzeentch army even more than before. I can't wait to see if GW make epic chariots for my Tzeentchian bastards. >:D

Chicop76

Quote from: crisis_vyper on July 31, 2012, 03:15:23 AM
Well, got my hands on the update and I have to say that thanks to Slaaneshi chariots, they are the only army that can spam chariots like mad and their chariots are better than the average chariot too. If you want to go crazy you can have 15 Chariots in a list (and 12 of them being the new Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh). Those things will mow down (pun intended) any infantry unit (and even light vehicles). With Icons around the army, you can ensure that those chariots will land to become a big chariot killer thing. And they are quite cheap units too.

I am already drooling over the countless 4d6 impact hits + attacks from the Exalted Alluress/ Herald of Slaanesh.......


As for the Tzeentch flamers, I always loved them and I started my Tzeentch army because of them. And GW decided to make them even more fun now and improved upon the Screamers to such an extent that they are now really awesome. I love my Tzeentch army even more than before. I can't wait to see if GW make epic chariots for my Tzeentchian bastards. >:D



Sadly you can use nurgle marines and nurgle bikers as a way point. With the ability to challenge a Bloodthirster is now more attractive since it can challenge the power fist weilder than kill the squad next go around. Man I need to see what you guys are talking about with the Daemon units. Is all that stuff in the new white dwarf that is out or an older one.


Cammerz

Quote from: Chicop76 on July 31, 2012, 03:27:33 AM
Quote from: crisis_vyper on July 31, 2012, 03:15:23 AM
Well, got my hands on the update and I have to say that thanks to Slaaneshi chariots, they are the only army that can spam chariots like mad and their chariots are better than the average chariot too. If you want to go crazy you can have 15 Chariots in a list (and 12 of them being the new Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh). Those things will mow down (pun intended) any infantry unit (and even light vehicles). With Icons around the army, you can ensure that those chariots will land to become a big chariot killer thing. And they are quite cheap units too.

I am already drooling over the countless 4d6 impact hits + attacks from the Exalted Alluress/ Herald of Slaanesh.......


As for the Tzeentch flamers, I always loved them and I started my Tzeentch army because of them. And GW decided to make them even more fun now and improved upon the Screamers to such an extent that they are now really awesome. I love my Tzeentch army even more than before. I can't wait to see if GW make epic chariots for my Tzeentchian bastards. >:D



Sadly you can use nurgle marines and nurgle bikers as a way point. With the ability to challenge a Bloodthirster is now more attractive since it can challenge the power fist weilder than kill the squad next go around. Man I need to see what you guys are talking about with the Daemon units. Is all that stuff in the new white dwarf that is out or an older one.

It is in the current White Dwarf ie. WD392 August 2012

Chicop76

Quote from: Cammerz on July 31, 2012, 07:21:53 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on July 31, 2012, 03:27:33 AM
Quote from: crisis_vyper on July 31, 2012, 03:15:23 AM
Well, got my hands on the update and I have to say that thanks to Slaaneshi chariots, they are the only army that can spam chariots like mad and their chariots are better than the average chariot too. If you want to go crazy you can have 15 Chariots in a list (and 12 of them being the new Exalted Chariot of Slaanesh). Those things will mow down (pun intended) any infantry unit (and even light vehicles). With Icons around the army, you can ensure that those chariots will land to become a big chariot killer thing. And they are quite cheap units too.

I am already drooling over the countless 4d6 impact hits + attacks from the Exalted Alluress/ Herald of Slaanesh.......


As for the Tzeentch flamers, I always loved them and I started my Tzeentch army because of them. And GW decided to make them even more fun now and improved upon the Screamers to such an extent that they are now really awesome. I love my Tzeentch army even more than before. I can't wait to see if GW make epic chariots for my Tzeentchian bastards. >:D



Sadly you can use nurgle marines and nurgle bikers as a way point. With the ability to challenge a Bloodthirster is now more attractive since it can challenge the power fist weilder than kill the squad next go around. Man I need to see what you guys are talking about with the Daemon units. Is all that stuff in the new white dwarf that is out or an older one.

It is in the current White Dwarf ie. WD392 August 2012

Thanks! Just bought my White Dwarf today. 16 chariots are possible in an army list wow. Unless you can no longer take a chariot as a HQ choice like you used to than you will be knocked down to 12.

The new chariots look cool, but the one with 4 hps is the on to look out for. Personally I would opt for a herald and run 3 for around 250 points, I know it is a few more points than it really is, anyway that is 12 d 6 auto hits plus attacks from the 3 hearlds. The only dislike I have for these units is that they are sitting ducks and relatively easy to kill, unless the other side decided not to pack anti armour, still it is a very cheap unit and can kill standard troops relatively easy with 72 initiative 10 auto hits that is possible, plus rending.

The flamer points are now retarded. I can now feild six for under 150 points, really! With 6 that unit can easily take out any vehicle with 3 hull points. Two like units can take out any vehicle unless it is a flyer which can be immune to templates. The sick part that unit still has warpfire which is 18 shots with good bs, str, and armour pen, sure marines can save which you will only kill two with it, but against Tau that is 8 dead Tau easy. My only gripe is that lost bolt which gave Tzeentch extra str 8 ap 1 shots, although with the new rule changes it's not a big deal since Boc can glance vehicles to death now.

Screamers are my salvation now. I actually saw some one complain about the higher cost. The extra attacks, armourbane, ap 2, extra wound, etc. This unit is my Khorne replacement easy. I would be leary sending these guys against Paladins, although it's real possible they can devistate other units with a marine initiative rather easy. If you send 5 of these guys against some stormsheild terms, minus overwatch, that would be 3 dead storm sheild terminators which is a good amount. I wouldn't try to take out a land raider with these guys, I would use this as a mop up squad. If you running 18 flamers and 15 of these guys it would be rather hard for your enemy to figure out which one is worst. Do I kill they squad of 6 flamers that vaporize my squads or do I kill these guys that eat my squads. More than likely the enemy would target the flamers like they always do and leave these guys alone. What ever the flamers do not kill these guys can easily mop up. I wouldn't send these guys against models that have a toughness higher than 5 or high initiave multi attack, high weapson skill models, Avatar of khaine is a nono.

Thinking about it some i just realize that aginst feel no pain Daemons are a bit weaker aginst it, before flamers and ap 2 weapons used to negate it and now they are able to save against these attacks. However once 6 flamers flame a squad you will have to have really good feel no pain rolls to save against 30 wounds. 20 wounds will still kill most units.


BigToof

I'm actually surprised that they put out quite as many models as they did in this new release, especially with only a WD-style update.  If this is a trend, it's very exciting as it means that we can see evolving armies and models that don't have to adhere to Codexes that are already gathering dust.

I actually like the Screamers more than the flamers, as they offer solid AP2 and the flamers still have to get so, so close to do their damage (i.e. maybe just one shot like before).

Appearance-wise, the Chariots look great, and can actually be a good movement denial unit if you zip them up into the faces of tanks, as they can't tank shock through you.  Which would set them up for Screamers...

Best,
-BT
BigToof Points:

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Waaaghpower: 1
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Chicop76

Quote from: BigToof on August 01, 2012, 04:52:43 PM
I'm actually surprised that they put out quite as many models as they did in this new release, especially with only a WD-style update.  If this is a trend, it's very exciting as it means that we can see evolving armies and models that don't have to adhere to Codexes that are already gathering dust.

I actually like the Screamers more than the flamers, as they offer solid AP2 and the flamers still have to get so, so close to do their damage (i.e. maybe just one shot like before).

Appearance-wise, the Chariots look great, and can actually be a good movement denial unit if you zip them up into the faces of tanks, as they can't tank shock through you.  Which would set them up for Screamers...

Best,
-BT

Usually I deed strike my flamers real close to flame my target. Also the ability to move 12" realy help them get in close and flame some more. With 9 flamers my record so far is 1k points in nids on my initial drop. Flamers can get the drop on targets when they deep strike in. The 12" movement usually makes them a target as well. Most people do not take kindly to a 3 man unit wiping out a quarter of their army. Although the Masque really helps out with flame distrubution.