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Best in Codex; Chaos Space Marines

Started by Arguleon-veq, February 01, 2013, 06:06:34 PM

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Arguleon-veq

I am going to make a series of 'Best in Codex' threads for them to be a handy reference for any players starting a new army or for people looking for something to add to their force. The basic aim is to outline the best option in every slot in the codex.

Special Characters

Whilst not a slot in itself there are a great many special characters in each codex now. For the Chaos Codex this is a tough one as I dont think any are really that game breaking and whilst some are great fighters they dont really add much to your army but here is my choice;

Typhus: You are getting a very durable character in typhus who happens to be the match of most other characters in combat. Couple that with the fact that he unlocks some very other good choices [Plague Marines as Troops and Plague Zombies] you are left with a very effective character who isnt the most expensive you will see either. The thing that pushes him over the line though is that he is also a Lvl2 Psyker and he gets to use one of the better Chaos Lores.

HQ

Chaos Space Marines now get 5 choices for none special character HQ's and whilst some are nice new additions that bring a lot of flavour to the army such as Warpsmiths, I think this option takes it;

Sorcerer: As most of you will know, psychic powers are a huge advantage in this edition of 40K and whilst Chaos Sorcerers can not take arguably the best lore [Divination] they can still choose from two pretty good ones in Biomancy and Telepathy. What really makes the Sorcerer such a fantastic choice is that you can make him a Lvl3 [which will often mean 3 psychic powers a turn] for a measly 110 Points! Something which I think is one of the best bargains in the game. That Lvl3 also gives you a 50% chance of getting the exact power you want from your chosen lore. That is not to say that Chaos Lords are a poor option, they can unluck other Troop Choices and Nurgle Bike Lords and Khorne Jugger Lords are very powerful options.

TROOPS

Now Chaos Space Marines have only two true troop choices so I will only pick from those;

Chaos Space Marines + Chaos Cultists [DRAW]: Neither option here are particularly powerful but they arent terrible either. They both provide fairly cheap numbers for your army and in my eyes it is just a personal choice between 3xthe numbers against 3xthe durability. Not having a terribly effective troop choice isn't so bad for Chaos Space Marines as we can make so many other units into troops.

ELITES

We get a pretty massive 9 elite choices but unfortunatly most are pretty poor. I personally believe that pretty much every choice besides the cult units are pretty poor and even half of those are not fantastic. That leaves me with a choice between Plague Marines and Noise Marines;

Plague Marines: Whilst Noise Marines do get to ignore cover with cheap sonic weaponry they also lose mobility for it and it does them little good against heavily armoured enemies. Plague Marines are fantastic in a fire fight thanks to the ability to take two special weapons even in a 5 strong unit. They fight great in combat thanks to two close combat weapons each including the very dangerous plague knife for poisoned attacks. Couple that with their blight grenades which let them take a charge from enemy units without them getting their extra attacks for charging and their durability [with T5 and Feel No Pain you will find fewer durable units in the game] gives us a very dangerous unit that can march into bolter or special weapon range and simply shrug off return fire and take an enemy charge with little fear. You pay for all of this as they are the most expensive cult option but it is points well invested.

FAST ATTACK

Strangely this is the most stacked slot in the Codex with three very effective units. Chaos Bikers are very cheap for what you get and get even better when given the Mark of Nurgle of Khorne. Spawn are also a great choice now as they are fast, durable and pack a serious punch on the charge the Mark of Nurgle almost making each one a monster in its own right but despite being fantastic [so much so that you will probably want to include at least one of these two units in your army] they dont compare with this;

Helldrake: One of the best flyers in the game right now and flyers are pretty scary for a lot of armies to deal with as it is. They get an invulnerable save, they get to vector strike [which now ignores cover!] it regains hull points, it has a 360 line of sight and the choice of two great weapons. The only thing that is a struggle about taking this option [besides the fact that the official model is a metal dragon....] is what weapon you will give it. The Hades Autocannon is great for dogfights, tank busting and for instant killing the ever present wraiths. The Baleflamer is great against power armour, jinking bikers and hordes of infantry and it doesnt even stop the drake from being effective against other flyers as it can still vector strike them.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Now this is quite a tough one for me as although nothing is amazing they have a few solid choices in Obliterators, Defilers, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends and Havocs;

Obliterators: I am really not sure if this is the best option. I think Oblits edge it though thanks to their versatility and the option of taking the Mark of Nurgle which greatly increases their survivability, no longer will Lascannons instant kill them. They give you efffective fire support without being a pushover in combat and their various weapon options let you choose the right tools for the job.

******************************

So what do you think are the most effective choices in each slot? have an arguement for any I have not included?
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Chicop76

I wouldn't hold my breath the Daemons will lose Etrnal Warrios. The Avatar is a deamon and does not have it. Also chaos dameons and marine daemons since the material has split has been different.

Hopefully I hope they lose it with a reduced cost to the units. Flamers and screamers is still really good and losing eternal warrior is not a big them for them. The biggest impact will be on the codex MCs, but everything else can fuction with out it.


Narric

You have some interesting Choices. Without playing with one, I don't know how effective a Forgefiend really is, so I'll take what you say with some salt.

I'll give some thought to this myself, and might post my own opinion sometime.

Chicop76

Forgefiend vs Oblits:

The Forgefield as it self is not really all that great. 4 auto cannon shots on a bs of 3 with a chance to re roll to wound once per game. Against a vehicle not great or troops.

However if you take the Ectoplasma Cannon the unit starts to have bite. You can opt to take two cannons which can slice and dice anything in the game almost. Against vehicles it's not bad. It's basically a plasma cannon with +1 strength. Throw in that it can re roll to wound once a game it can get rid of annoying units and can instant death some.

The problem I see with the above unit it can easily hit 200 points, rather expensive if you ask me. With armour 12 it's not that durable. The +5 invulnerable and ignore shaken and stun helps, but in the end it still dies to glance death or one lucky shot.

I say it has average armour that is great anti not vehicle everything, but vehicle. The problem is although not a glass cannon it is still a wooden cannon. It's the second house on the wolves list.

Now the Oblits. You can easily take 3 for an upgraded Forge Fiends cost, so you can take one vehicle that fires 2 strength 8 plasma cannon shots, or 3 units at tougness 4-5 maybe a better invulnerable save which can fire 3 strength 7 plasma shots with 6 wounds. Not to mention you can deep strike Oblits and they have more versitility in what weapons they can fire. Reason I say this if you space your models right it can only hit 1-2 models, really one model if you space exactly 2" apart in a line which works well with small units like 5 or 6. If playing against a player like that the ability to switch weapons like an assault cannon for example would be helpful, although if said target happens to have a good save I would say that wouldn't be a good choice. Anyway this is why I lost faith in blast weapons and large blast and template weapons hapen to be better.

Now people scream that Oblits not being able to fire the same weapon twice is a limitation. Let's list the weapons shall we.

1. Assault cannon
2. Heavy Flamer
3. Lascannon
4. Multi-Melta
5. Plasma Cannon
6. Twin flamer
7 twin melta
8. Twin plasma gun

Ok let's say you are firing at a target 24" away. Let's see your choices is lascannon or multi melta. If 12" away the muli- melta is the obvious choice. Heck 6" away the twin melta turns into the better choice. How is this a limittation. Anything outside of 24" if you standing still you only can use lascannon shots and I think the plasma cannon. If you have this unit enter via ds or just walk up the board the 24" problem is not really a problem. The other weapon choice my not be the super choice, but it's still a good choice. Darn I can't shoot my lascannons at you and I am forced to used my multi-meltas instead, dumb oblits are so nerfed. Keep in mind not many people are using armour 14 vehicles as much and even armour 13 isn't all that common, Necrons are an excepton which on pen means that they go to being armour 11.

Let us argue if you in flame range. Do I use my heavy flamers or my re roll to wound flamers. Man such limitations. Hope I do not go against the huge number of models that have a save of +4 which would make the differance in which flame weapon to use.

Oh look they have a twin linked plasma rifle, so if I can't use my plasma cannon which weapon now becomes a no brainer. Heck if I am within 12" the rifles now become the better choice. Man I fired those 6 plasma shots last turn now I have to use my three plasma cannons instead to make up for that, or my twin melta which I get less shots, but higher strength and much saver to use.

I see not using the same weapon system twice as a minor annoyance which can be dealt with very easily if you use your noggin. Honestly it's not even a limitation. You have 8 weapons to chose from. What other models does that. Too many vehicles on the field I can deal with that, marines I can deal with that too, swarms no problem got something for that too, terms and MCs you kidding right.

Not going into the marks and powerfist they are super good. With marks they easily become much better. 3 marks are actually good on them. One gives them better toughness, one better invulnerable, and one helps them make sure they get good use of those power fist.

One or two weapon destroyed results the fiend is done. The Oblits not only a range threat, but a close combat threat as well. Those 3 melta shots for some reason didn't take out that tank, I bet those 9 powerfist hits will. Forgefiend is pure range with ok melee and Oblits are both.

Not saying the fiend is crap. I am saying I will go Oblits over the fiend almost every time.

Also the #1 reason that Oblits is aweaome is that when taken with the tallyman they become what I say just retarded. They can easily rack up tallies. Anyone that says a heavy flamer that ignores saves is not scarry clearly never had it happen to them or an Assault cannon that ignores saves. The other tallies are worthless, but getting 20 kills with theses guys included is not hard to do.

Oblits is a no brainer and easily the best Heavy choice.


Arguleon-veq

I was tempted for Oblits but only if they have MoN and that is a big limitation. As I dont want to be picking units based on what marks they take. I may change it though as it was a close call. Your analysis of the weapons having to change doesnt stack up though. If they are out of 24'' range, which they often are then it is a big drawback. Plasma Cannon or Lascannon isnt great when their primary role in a Chaos army is usually anti tank, something the plasma cannons arent very good at.
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Chicop76

#5
Quote from: Arguleon-veq on February 01, 2013, 11:48:51 PM
I was tempted for Oblits but only if they have MoN and that is a big limitation. As I dont want to be picking units based on what marks they take. I may change it though as it was a close call. Your analysis of the weapons having to change doesnt stack up though. If they are out of 24'' range, which they often are then it is a big drawback. Plasma Cannon or Lascannon isnt great when their primary role in a Chaos army is usually anti tank, something the plasma cannons arent very good at.

24" inch range is the only real limit I see with the unit. However it can easily be overcome with deep striking. In turn one they can fire at targets that are 25-30" away if they move. However since they will be firing lascannons turn one they can close in next turn and shoot at targets that was 26-36" to get within shooting range turn 2 with the second weapon.

I am used to using hive guard and with oblits I would move them with my army instead of them staying in terrain.

Also keep in mind that the 24" limitation is a limit if the other player is running or trying to stay out of range which eldar can do, which plasma cannons can easily take out dark eldar vehicles. Also keep in mind unless you are playing a vp based game objectives is a major factor in this. You vae to get within the objectives to win.

Elites:

This is a hard cat since 5 units can become troop options. If I count the abiltity to become troop option is would make the 5 choices turn into the best troop instead of the best elite. Anyway keeping with the best Elite I wanted to throw my 2 cents.

Plague Marines at almost 25 points a piece is not bad. Taking an icon grants them fear which isn't that great for them. The plague knives, blind grenades, and rapid fire goodness makes them really good with other options can't really come close to what this unit can do. Also throw in toughness 5 with FNP. The only draw back is int 3 and the lack of armour killing close combat. Against most things it's a very good unit.

I like to mention a few other units though. It is hard to beat the plague marines, but the title is best elite choice. I think the plague marines would be the best troop choice over the best elite choice.

Noise Marines to me is a better option that the Plague Marines. At base cost 10 man squad Plague is 240 points vs the Noise Maines 190 points. It's a 50 point differance, but don't let the points fool you since the Nois Marines at base is not that useful.

For 20 points each a noise marine can take a sonic blaster. A squad of 10 can fire 30 shots standing still or 20 shots on the go for only 200 points. It's a bolter that ignores cover. The great part about this is that anything with +5 saves is dead. With that many shots you can take out huge chunks of guard squads. A 10 man squad can on average kill 14 guardsman not moving. 30 Noise Marines can nearly wipe out a 50 man guard squad with the guard player not being able to do anything about it. Against regular marines and other units not as destructive however. A 10 man squad however can kill 3 maybe 4 marines with 3 shots a piece as a 10 man squad. Much more than any other standard squad shooting.

I think the blastermaster is a waste of points. It's rather expensive but it can drop a strength 8 ap 3 blast on marines for an easy kill. If you get 2-3 marines under the blast that's 6-7 marines dead within 24". Also it can provide range anti tank if need to. I think 5 man squads work well which will give you more blast to throw around. If you take this however you hitting 230 points which is 10 points less than plague marines. I think cost wise it's just too much for what it does. Like I always said blast works only as good as how your opponet sets up his men. Against some players you might hit 7 models while against others you only get 1. However daemons can allow you to move models which makes the blast more appealing.



The Doom siren is cheaper than a heavy flamer which have a better ap. The problem with this weapon is that to use it well you have to move the unit. Putting them in a rhino really takes away from sonic blasters. One of my ideals is to take a 5 man with a rhino and doom siren for 145 points. It's not too expensive and you can roast marines out of the top hatch or you can jump out and do the same. Even still if a marine type unit gets rather close it's better to lose the extra shot and use the Doom Siren.

This is the reason why I would take noise over plague. The icon of excess. If you throw in sonic blasters, doom siren, and icon that is 245 points for 10 to 240 the 10 plague. However the more Noise you add the more cost efficent the unit becomes over the plague. For all this gear you get a unit with range fire power, no need for flames since their guns are flamers, a heavy flamer that kills marines and feel no pain. Grant it that the Plague Marines have toughness five, but giving FNP to Noise Marines gives them more surviveabiltiy. Not saying that the enemy won't snipe the icon bearer which is not impossible to do, but all in all that is why you give the icon to the character and look out sir rolls come to play.

Another thought is to make and assault squad at 18 points a model with the icon providing fnp. Not saying this is dumb. I think it's more fluffy to do so with an int of 5. However you obviously not trying to win games by doing this.

Mutilator:

For some reason this unit is not liked. Oblits get love, Pallidans which are a obvious good version of this model get love, but this model no love.

Basically the Mutilator is a two wound terminator that get random weapons. Marks of Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, or Slaanech works with these guys. It is really hard to say which mark is the best, toughness 5 against those power fist is a no brainer to me.

The main drawback I see to them is # of attacks and S&P, which means no nunning. The S&P is the reason I would probably never bother with them.

However it's still a good unit with these 5 weapons optins.
1. Chainfist
2. Lightningclaws
3. Poweraxes
4. Power mauls
5. Power swords

Since it's a pair they have 3 attacks with 4 on the charge. That being said they can switch between chainfist and axes dealing with terminators, claws and swords vs. Marines, and mauls and lightning claws against anything else for the most part.

Against vehicles the first assault should kill it. I can't see how any vehicle and survive 12 chainfist attacks heading towards it. :facepalm001:

Aginst MCs it would be a toss up. Once the fist been used Mauls or Axes would be the next alternative. I personally think they are a poor match up against a MC.

Aginst anything else it's pretty much slice and dice.

Chosen:

I think chosen is up their because I can take take either a lot of plasma or melta. Not a great troop option, but great speialist option. They are cheap compared to your other options. They can put range pain on terminators which not too many other options can do. Out of the ones mention so far they can mist terminators and or MCs with minor loses. Noise are great , but not really great vs terminators, a 10 man squad shooting 30 times can kill 2 a turn. Plague Marines have 2 meltas which doesn't do much. The poison attacks help with re rolling wonds and also against MCs , but it's not enough to actually win combat unless said untis are severly weakened and they engage to finish it off. Mutilators against Terms and MCs are about equal footing which both can die at the same time. While on the other hand Chosen can rapid fire said unit and it ceast to exist.

The winner is Chosen due to versitility and if you wanted you can give them FNP or make them toughness 5.


Chicop76

Oh. I wanted to point out that your Best HQ option with the Mark of Tzeentch unlocks thousand sons as troop options.

I also wanted to point out the the Chaos Lord is being overlooked. Like the Sorceror both have acess to disk, steeds, nurlge babies, or juggernaut. Juggernaut and Khorne Lord is rather good. Anyway the Lords can unlock Plague Marines as troops as well at almost 1/3 of Typhus cost.

Also the Daemon Prince is not a bad choice. It hits at 155-160 with really good stats. If given the scrollsof magus the negative side effect is not really hurtful. I personally would take two psyker powers. By taking two one have to be in the mark you have to take while one can be in biomancy. Biomancy can make the prince very deadly. You have 3 out of 3 powers which would help the prince. Taking the axe as well will make the prince into a chop it dead melee beast. On scenerio is a str 9 tougness 9 12 attack monster that wounds on 2s or an intitative 8 monster with 15 attacks that wounds on 2. The prince is not cheap, but could easily be well worth the points.


The Man They Call Jayne

You say Sorcerers have access to 2 good disciplines in Biomancy and Telepathy, they also have access to Pyromancy, or were you suggesting that Pyromancy just isnt very good in comparison? With the right powers from it, you can have a guy that can put out alot of hurt in one turn.
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Brassclaw

I agree with most of the OPs opinions, but i think Kharn has a better chance of getting his points back. Typhus does let you have plague marines are troops and plauge zombies, but Kharn gets you Berzerkers has troop which isn't a bad alternative. Kharn can also take out tanks with relative ease. He is also a steal at only 160pts. If hes not the best choice, he comes in a close 2nd. Of course i might be bias.

Irisado

I would disagree with this idea that there is a best unit in each section.  There are so many variables in games of 40K, and among the players, that trying to say that one unit is flat out better than all the others in every situation is an anathema to my way of thinking.  In fact, I've seen quite a lot of variety with Chaos lists posted on other fora, so it would appear that a number of people hold different views about which are the best unit combinations.

Combinations is the key word here, as whether a certain unit will work depends heavily on the other choices in your list, and the kind of attack that you want to employ, as well as the opposition that you're likely to face.  As a result, it's the interaction between the squads you include which matters, rather than simply looking at one unit in its own right.

None of this means that certain units are not better than others, or easier to use effectively than others, but to try to pick the best unit for all situations just doesn't work in my view.
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DEF Knight

Quote from: Irisado on February 04, 2013, 12:16:43 AM
I would disagree with this idea that there is a best unit in each section.  There are so many variables in games of 40K, and among the players, that trying to say that one unit is flat out better than all the others in every situation is an anathema to my way of thinking.  In fact, I've seen quite a lot of variety with Chaos lists posted on other fora, so it would appear that a number of people hold different views about which are the best unit combinations.

Combinations is the key word here, as whether a certain unit will work depends heavily on the other choices in your list, and the kind of attack that you want to employ, as well as the opposition that you're likely to face.  As a result, it's the interaction between the squads you include which matters, rather than simply looking at one unit in its own right.

None of this means that certain units are not better than others, or easier to use effectively than others, but to try to pick the best unit for all situations just doesn't work in my view.

This topic isn't "what unit is always the best at everything forever" it's "what is the best overall". There very clearly can be a best. If one unit reliably performs better than another 70% of the time, clearly it is a better buy. If one unit can do the exact same job of another, for fewer points, clearly it is better. Perhaps not in every scenario or build, but this isn't "every scenario or build" this is a debate over what would reasonably perform better, more often. Perhaps one unit only truly shines in a certain combination or using a specific army build, that could easily be the case, but if so the entire point of the thread is to bring that up, and explain why. Could you really tell me that Guard blobs or vets aren't superior to Penal Legionaires, because sometimes Penal Legion are better than those other two occasionally, other than being far less effective most of the time, for far higher points?

Combinations are all well and good, but combinations are made up of individual elements. Do I want my Obliterators and Warp Talons supported by Khornate Berzerkers or Noise Marines? It's kind of hard to decide that without looking at which of those two units individually.

Again, the point of this is not to say "well this definitively is the best unit for every situation" if it was the list would be short, it would say "Obliterators lol" but it's not unreasonable to point out what unit is going to more often than not be worthwhile. When you have multiple strong, and often times similar, contenders for the same slots, all with a bevy of options and special rules, and associated costs and drawbacks available to them, it's probably a good idea to start sniffing out which units will over or underperform, comparitively, in most or all situations, or at most or all jobs.

Irisado

I read the topic very differently to you.  The way in which the opening and closing paragraphs are constructed, and the way in which some of the unit commentaries are written, suggest to me that it is all about saying unit x is the best in every situation against all opposition.

To answer your question about combinations using your example, it would depend whether you were going to deep strike, and you would perhaps then want a close assault unit in position to engage any survivors from shooting, in which case you'd go for the Berzerkers, or whether you just want mobile fire support for the Warp Talons, in which case you'd go for the Noise Marines.

That's what I mean by discussing combinations, and avoiding absolutes.
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Arguleon-veq

Yes its not trying to say that a unit is better than all units in every situation its about trying to find the most effective unit from each slot as in HQ, FA, HS etc. Obviously each of these units wont be best at everything, just the most effective from that part of the codex.

If somebody was wondering about starting a chaos army and wanted to know which boxes they should pick up first for the start of a good force they could look in on this thread and see that if they got a Sorc, Plague Marine Squad, Helldrake and a pair of Oblits that they would have a nice starting collection that they could take to the field with some success. It could save somebody going out and getting a unit that costs a lot of money and they use it a few times and never want to use them again as they just arent peforming for them.

Youve talked me around on Oblits Chicop I will put them in instead of Forgefiends.

In the UK at least the only Chaos list that has placed top 10 at the last two big tournies has included 2x helldrakes, loads of plague marines and oblits so it would seem those are pretty solid choices, they are running bike lords with spawn instead of sorcerers though.

Yeah Jayne I was just saying that Pyromancy is pretty poor, it can work I agree but I think the range on a lot of the spells is a little lacking. I dont think any of the special characters really match up to a make your own lord or sorc to be honest. Lords can be great im just leaning towards the sorc for cheapness coupled with that power a really good lord does set you back a fair few points.
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DEF Knight

The thing is to take Plague Marines as troops you need a lord with Mark of Nurgle, that's one of the reasons that player has him. Also, T6 lords are pretty spiffy...