News:

For the most up to date reports about what is going on with the forum, and the latest topics of interest, throw us a like on Facebook, and if you're wanting some light banter with the seasoned and spiced members, join the Second Sphere Members Group.

Main Menu

New Eldar Review

Started by Arguleon-veq, June 01, 2013, 11:13:36 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Arguleon-veq

So I got my book today, I've been waiting for Eldar to be re-done for ages and really liked the look of the Wraithknight so I was really looking forward to this one.

Universal Rules:

The first is a very fluffy rule that gives them hatred but minus LD against, Slaanesh units, very fitting and nice and balanced.

The second is a very nice rule that lets a unit shoot before or after running which again I think works very well for Eldar and goes some way in making up for the short range of a lot of their weapons.

Psychic Lores:

You get two new lores, one for warlocks/spiritseers and one for farseers.

The warlock lore is fantastic, each power can be used as either a curse or blessing and almost all are very nice, the big drawback being that they are cast from LD8 warlocks.

The farseer lore is very up and down. The old powers like doom, guide and fortune are all in there and very nice unfortunatly most of the other powers are pretty terrible and most cost 2 warp charge points. Thankfully our farseers can take divination.

HQ

Farseers: Lvl3 Psykers with access to divination for a bargain cost, great choice.

Autarchs: Not much has changed to be honest although they do get access to some snazzy new items.

Avatar: About equal to the old one, more points, slightly better stats.

Warlocks: You can still have a council and these guys are each Lvl1 psykers. Singing spears no longer lose you an attack which is nice. You can get a pretty tasty bike council, with the right powers you can end up with a council with a 2+ save/3+ cover/4+ Invun with Fearless and re rolling all saves. Still viable although still a massive amount of points.

Pheonix Lords: Same as always, decent enough but not really that great for what they cost. Can be useful for certain powers such as Karandras' infiltrate.

TROOPS

Anything to do with guardians got +1BS, WS and I which is great.

Bikes: Already the troop of choice these guys just got way, way better. They got a big points drop [20+%] they got the stat increase above and their shuriken weapons got better.

Shurikens are now AP2 on a to wound roll of a 6 and they can wound things they wouldnt normally be able to [looking at you wraithknights].

Rangers: The other reliable eldar troop choice got a slight boost. No more pathfinder upgrade but they got a big point drop too.

Guardians: Went up in points but with the increase in stats and weapon power its probably worth it. Can have a weapon platform for every 10 guys[which now has its own statline]. Can be fairly survivable thanks to warlocks with conceal [which gives shrouded].

Dire Avengers: With the increase in price I thought these guys would be amazing, turns out they stayed about the same, not really worth it.

Wave Serpant: I am really not sure what to make of this. With a twin linked scatter laser+shuricannon you are looking at a nice little gunboat who gets a 4+ cover with a holofield. What makes it an effective gunboat are these things;

Laser Lock - If a model has a scatter laser, it fires first, if it hits, other weapons on the same model are twin linked.
Serpent Shield - The actual force field ability of this has changed, its ok. You can though deactivate it and use it as a gun that gets multiple S7 shots at a great range, ignoring cover and pinning.

Thanks to this your looking at 6S6 hits and 4S7 hits a turn on a fairly durable transport for 145 points. Whats also nice is that thanks to laser lock your looking at it being decent anti air [which the list lacks] as you average about 2.5 S6 hits and 1.5 S7 on a flyer.

Is it worth the cost? I really dont know. I do like them but will they survive long enough to justify the points?
X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

Arguleon-veq

#1
ELITES

Fire Dragons: Big jump in points and without access to some of the former exarch powers [the best ones!] as all exarchs now pick from a list of them.

Howling Banshees: Very little change so still not useful at all.

Scorpions: Went up in points but they stayed decent enough, still better than banshees but still dont really cut it.

Harlequins: Went back to how they were before they messed with the shadowseer rules, you have to cast veil of tears now but at least its on LD9. So we go back to the enemy having a spotting range of 14'' which means you should get to charge without getting shot which is obviously very important.

Wraithguard/blades: Slight points drop and the warlock can always give them shrouded which is nice. Other than that they are the same, wraithcannons will be nice against all the monsters around but not really that competative. The new gun is a really nice flamer but wraithguard already have problems getting into range without lowering that range even more for a big points cost.

The combat wraithguard are just poor, they arent that good in combat.

FAST ATTACK

Swooping Hawks: Fairly useful, fast tank hunters with the old grenade packs which are fairly nice, may be worth a unit of 6 just for those.

Warp Spiders: The extra rules for monofilament weapons made these pretty good as did a slight point drop. Thanks to the eldar special rule and the fact they are new jetpack troopers they can shoot a target then drop back an average of 10'' to leave you 22'' away, hopefully out of charge range!

Shining Spears: The main problem with shining spears wasnt their points cost [although that was a problem and its been fixed a little] it was the lack of attacks, which they didnt fix at all. Give them a pistol!

Vypers: Still the same cost for double cannons but now at extra BS with the chance of AP2. Not bad, not great.

Crimson Hunter Flyer: I really wanted to like this, its weapons are great [2 bright lances and a pulse laser] it can have BS5, it should bea great air superiority fighter and then go on tank killing runs late game, instead thanks to AV10 all around it will get blown out of the sky by a strong breeze. Quadguns will ruin it and so will any other flyer. If it had been AV11/11/10 it would have been lovely. The DE flyer has this but gets 1 less decent shot at 1 less BS but instead gets the option of a 5+ save and for less points. So AV11/11/10 would have been perfect in my opinion. Instead the one place we could have gotten decent anti air is wasted.

Hemlock Flyer: A psychic flyer with decent ground attack potential and its great for pinning or making enemy units run thanks to its terrify psychic power and the ability to effect LD of enemy units, coupled with warlocks lowering enemy LD by 3 with the right power you could be running broadsides off the table left right and centre IF it had better armour. Exactly the same problem as above.

X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

Arguleon-veq

HEAVY SUPPORT

Dark Reapers: A little cheaper, got slow and purposeful and can now have 10 in a unit. Still not really survivable enough though and you can get better firepower elsewhere.

Support Batterys: Of the 3 choices shadow weavers are nice and cheap and pretty effective, 3 S6 barrage blasts that can get to S7 and AP1 for 90 points is a pretty good buy.

Fire Prism/Night Spinners/Falcons: Pretty much like they were, still not really worth it for the fire they  put out with the drop they have taken in survivability this edition.

War Walkers: The boost to shuricannons certainly helped the basic load out as did the extra BS, a lot like vypers for a very similar cost. One of the only places in the book with skyfire, you can but it for their missiles but i dont think 110 points is worth it for 2 S7 skyfire shots on such a vulnerable hull.

Wraithlords: Got a bit better and they werent too bad anyway. Weapons got cheaper and they can now have a sword and two of the same weapon without it just becoming twin linked. 2 bright lances, 2 flamers and a sword makes quite a nice tank buster whilst still being good in combat and against hordes, well worth the 165 points it would cost.

Wraithknight: A jump monster with awesome firepower and great combat stats. A lot of people will run 3 of these and most will run it as what im going to call the Sun Knight. 300 points for a shield, suncannon and scatter laser so your getting a 5+ invun on those 6 T8 wounds and your putting out 3 twin linked S6 AP2 blasts.

The basic option gives you two single S10 AP2 shots but the fact it can instant kill on the roll of a 6 to wound makes it pretty good at hunting other wraithknights and it saves you 60 points.

I think one major issue is if that people start bringing snipers and poison to deal with them, its just like killing 6 marines which isnt hard at all. I think 2 sun knights and 1 gun knight are what people will run.
X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

The Man They Call Jayne

Dark Reapers in units of 10? That is a nasty amount of AP3 firepower is they are still AP3. Crisis teams are worthless without Shield Generators on them if they are in range of these guys. And if crack shot is an option no cover either.

I am glad the Wraithknight costs a decent amount. Maybe they are finally dealing with the whole powerful and stupidly cheap issues they have been having.

Harlequins do sound nasty though if they are basically invisible until almost charge range.

Overall then, would you call this a balanced codex compared to what has already been released in 6th?
Jaynes Awesome Card Counter: +5

Secondspheres Crash Card Counter +4



Jonagon

I thought wraithblades were at a pretty sweet spot in terms of CC, good enough to rock through most things, without being overkill against most targets. Plus you can get them as troops fairly cheapily which seemed nice to me..

But I don't actually know anything about this game.  ;D

Arguleon-veq

Your looking at 300pts for the 10 reapers but it is putting out 20 S5 AP3. Battlesuits and regular marines will get blown away but you dont see too many normal marines on foot these days.

I actually think most books so far havent been too bad;

Chaos - Pretty weak besides the 3 helldrake build and even then its really only top level when you throw in something like Orks for reliable/cheap troops.

Dark Angels - Pretty weak besides dakka build lists. Standard dakka build is lacking in mobility. Ravenwing are very nice but really short on anti air and things that ignore their jink are brutal for them [dark reapers do this by the way].

Daemons - Pretty standard and at the mercy of a lot of random dice rolls.

Tau - Seriously powerful.

Eldar? - Im not sure yet, I guess we will have to wait and see. Nothing jumps out as me as unbeatable and I really dont think they are on the level of Tau.

One serious implication of the new Eldar book is that it has made an already powerful Nid codex much more powerful. Now that nearly every army cant throw in cheap anti psyker runes of warding Nids can now Iron Arm/Endurance/Enfeeble till their hearts are content.

What it also does is allow Tzeentch Daemon builds to get some play time which is something I think can be pretty powerful now.

As for wraithblades im really not sure, the axes do give you a 4++ and a S7 AP2 attack, but its just 10 attacks. Plus they have to actually reach combat. They are a lot like the Necron close combat units and they dont work too well.
X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

The Man They Call Jayne

Ian assuming that the Wraithknight is a 2+ save? If so, and if fortune is still a thing, that is going to be amazingly hard to kill while obliterating anything it touches.
Jaynes Awesome Card Counter: +5

Secondspheres Crash Card Counter +4



Chicop76

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 02, 2013, 12:17:43 PM
Your looking at 300pts for the 10 reapers but it is putting out 20 S5 AP3. Battlesuits and regular marines will get blown away but you dont see too many normal marines on foot these days.

I actually think most books so far havent been too bad;

Chaos - Pretty weak besides the 3 helldrake build and even then its really only top level when you throw in something like Orks for reliable/cheap troops.

Dark Angels - Pretty weak besides dakka build lists. Standard dakka build is lacking in mobility. Ravenwing are very nice but really short on anti air and things that ignore their jink are brutal for them [dark reapers do this by the way].

Daemons - Pretty standard and at the mercy of a lot of random dice rolls.

Tau - Seriously powerful.

Eldar? - Im not sure yet, I guess we will have to wait and see. Nothing jumps out as me as unbeatable and I really dont think they are on the level of Tau.

One serious implication of the new Eldar book is that it has made an already powerful Nid codex much more powerful. Now that nearly every army cant throw in cheap anti psyker runes of warding Nids can now Iron Arm/Endurance/Enfeeble till their hearts are content.

What it also does is allow Tzeentch Daemon builds to get some play time which is something I think can be pretty powerful now.

As for wraithblades im really not sure, the axes do give you a 4++ and a S7 AP2 attack, but its just 10 attacks. Plus they have to actually reach combat. They are a lot like the Necron close combat units and they dont work too well.

Funny I was doing the dance of joy now I can now use my Tzeentch. What's funny is I said the same thing as I went strait to runes of warding when I bought my codex.

Oh it just mean you'll see a bunch of space wolf allies now since they can cancel within 24" at a 4+ or 3+. You just don't have to worry anout killing your self now.

Banshees=blind. Also I think they are cheaper. They seem to come off like damonettes. Wraithnight with blindshield plus banshees can be a dangerous combo to I 6 models and lower. Heck even I 8 models have a decent chance of blind.

Honestly if you run banshees you need blind. They also need spirtseer??? Something to keep them alive before they assault. It's almost like I have Harliquins here and Banshees there who do I take. Hmm outside of 24" one unit can't get shots and on average they can be 14" away and be good. That means 6" move and 11 " for easy assault. Thinking about with fleet they might can get away with moving and assaulting 14" out. Oh wait math wrong on average is 13" away and with fleet, so outside of 14" they have a decent chance of moving and assaulting.


Irisado

There's absolutely no justification for giving Guardians, and Guardian style units, the same WS/BS as Aspect Warriors, so I disagree with the assertion that this is a good change.  It was not needed at all, and, in the case of Defender Guardians, fails to fix the disconnect between a long range weapon platform, and an excessive short ranged gun.

With that complaint out of the way, most other changes seem sensible, and well thought out, and most Aspects have been changed for the better, so I'm happy overall.  It's just a pity that nothing was done to fix the Howling Banshee delivery issue.
Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Chicop76

Quote from: Irisado on June 02, 2013, 03:07:57 PM
There's absolutely no justification for giving Guardians, and Guardian style units, the same WS/BS as Aspect Warriors, so I disagree with the assertion that this is a good change.  It was not needed at all, and, in the case of Defender Guardians, fails to fix the disconnect between a long range weapon platform, and an excessive short ranged gun.

With that complaint out of the way, most other changes seem sensible, and well thought out, and most Aspects have been changed for the better, so I'm happy overall.  It's just a pity that nothing was done to fix the Howling Banshee delivery issue.

I disagree with that. Black guardians was bs 4 or ws 4. Also in some old eldar rules vypers, war walkrs, etc. Was bs 4.

What they basically did was give them bs and ws 4 from the old rules.


Carrelio

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 02, 2013, 12:17:43 PM

Daemons - Pretty standard and at the mercy of a lot of random dice rolls.

Tau - Seriously powerful.


I have actually found that daemons is among the most powerful books out there (no other codex in my area has curb-stomped so badly that people are tapping out on turn 1, and the best record we've had against it has been a game ending on turn 6 with just a drop pod left alive). Now obviously, this is an ultra competitive tournament list (flying circus).  It is chaos, so it has some random effects, but the effects are often beneficial in the favour of the chaos player in some way (or at worst not dangerously detrimental), but you expect random in chaos.

Tau on the other hand are really not as powerful as everyone gives them credit for being. It's a well written and very balanced book, but outside the riptide (and the sniper drones... random as that may be), nothing stands out to me as being stronger than the other 6th edition books.  And now that people are getting used to Tau again (and not just walking at them...) Tau are settling back in to their place as a tricky tactical army that can be very good if played well, but can't just show up and expect to win.

Irisado

Quote from: Chicop76 on June 02, 2013, 06:32:05 PM
I disagree with that. Black guardians was bs 4 or ws 4. Also in some old eldar rules vypers, war walkrs, etc. Was bs 4.

What they basically did was give them bs and ws 4 from the old rules.

What they did, in relation to Guardians, was borrow a rule for a specific elite type of Guardian from the old, and overpowered, codex Craftworld Eldar supplement from third edition.  If you look at Guardian WS/BS from White Dwarf 127, the second edition codex, the third edition codex, and the fourth/fifth edition codex, you will see that Guardians always had the same WS/BS, and it wasn't the value in the new book.

Black Guardians are a separate entity.  They are specific to Ulthwé, and are not part of any other craftworld.  On that basis, they cannot be used as a model from which to apply to other Guardians, since the two are not the same.

I see what you're saying about the vehicle rules, but most of the time they have been BS3 as well, with only a few exceptions here, and there, such as the Fire Prism.
Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Arguleon-veq

With regards to guardians I think its something they needed from a game stand point. Without it they would have to drop them to a seriously low points value and then we would see hordes of them which really just doesnt fit for eldar at all.

From a fluff stand point I think they should be BS/WS4. Every guardian in an eldar army is an eldar who has walked the path of the warrior so at some point in their lives they have been BS/WS4. They have probably spent a normal mortals lifetime as an aspect warrior. Sure they could be hundreds of years removed from doing that but they are all also psychic and ive no doubt with their advanced minds and bodies can recall their training and their bodies will quickly get used to the rigours of war again with probably only a few months training.

I would imagine that being a guardian, for a time will exempt you from your chosen path. They probably start to train again, ready for war and for anybody that does a sport even if your out of it for ages and are rusty when you start back up, your not starting again, it does come back to you. Ive found it myself recently with boxing after a few years of not training, at first I was terrible but within just a few weeks things start coming together again. For an eldar who will be very unlikely to get really out of shape and have no doubt perfect recall and great control over their bodies if they are training heavily or not, it would probably only take a few months drilling/training to get their skill level back.

The whole heavy weapon issue isnt such a big deal for defender guardians now as you dont HAVE to take the heavy weapon which is nice. I always thought that was silly, so you can have a mobile agressive unit who can unload some shots and then try to fade out of assault range with their special rule.

Or you can sit back with a small unit with a heavy weapon.

As for daemons and tau. Daemons were VERY broken before the new book thanks to that WD update. Since the new book they have really fallen off, 60 flesh hounds looked viable for a time but even they cant take the massive weight of fire armies can get out there. They are good, but in now way broken.

Tau on the other hand can blow armies away in a few turns flat, even other competative armies. How else do you deal with tau besides coming at them? you cant deepstrike on them because almost the whole army will have intercept and very few armies can out-shoot them. Im actually playing a long game against them and operating outside their 36'' sweet zone but a lot of armies cant do that. If people are having riptides as their main competative unit, thats the problem. They dont put out anywhere near enough firepower and are only really good for soaking power and intercepting units with a large blast.

What really make tau are missile broadsides and markerlights. Ive yet to see a competative tau list that doesnt run at least 6 missile broadsides with 6 missile drones in each unit. Your looking at each unit putting out 20+ S7 hits with markerlight support and thats without the extra S5 hits it should get [another 10]. Your looking at every missile side unit killing 7+ marines. Add to that their durability and you have a brutal army.

Tau are as far away from a tricky tactical army as you can get if you want to play them as a competative list as they can simply line up and win the game against most other lists when you bring the right units.
X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

Chicop76

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on June 02, 2013, 10:40:52 PM
With regards to guardians I think its something they needed from a game stand point. Without it they would have to drop them to a seriously low points value and then we would see hordes of them which really just doesnt fit for eldar at all.

From a fluff stand point I think they should be BS/WS4. Every guardian in an eldar army is an eldar who has walked the path of the warrior so at some point in their lives they have been BS/WS4. They have probably spent a normal mortals lifetime as an aspect warrior. Sure they could be hundreds of years removed from doing that but they are all also psychic and ive no doubt with their advanced minds and bodies can recall their training and their bodies will quickly get used to the rigours of war again with probably only a few months training.

I would imagine that being a guardian, for a time will exempt you from your chosen path. They probably start to train again, ready for war and for anybody that does a sport even if your out of it for ages and are rusty when you start back up, your not starting again, it does come back to you. Ive found it myself recently with boxing after a few years of not training, at first I was terrible but within just a few weeks things start coming together again. For an eldar who will be very unlikely to get really out of shape and have no doubt perfect recall and great control over their bodies if they are training heavily or not, it would probably only take a few months drilling/training to get their skill level back.

The whole heavy weapon issue isnt such a big deal for defender guardians now as you dont HAVE to take the heavy weapon which is nice. I always thought that was silly, so you can have a mobile agressive unit who can unload some shots and then try to fade out of assault range with their special rule.

Or you can sit back with a small unit with a heavy weapon.

As for daemons and tau. Daemons were VERY broken before the new book thanks to that WD update. Since the new book they have really fallen off, 60 flesh hounds looked viable for a time but even they cant take the massive weight of fire armies can get out there. They are good, but in now way broken.

Tau on the other hand can blow armies away in a few turns flat, even other competative armies. How else do you deal with tau besides coming at them? you cant deepstrike on them because almost the whole army will have intercept and very few armies can out-shoot them. Im actually playing a long game against them and operating outside their 36'' sweet zone but a lot of armies cant do that. If people are having riptides as their main competative unit, thats the problem. They dont put out anywhere near enough firepower and are only really good for soaking power and intercepting units with a large blast.

What really make tau are missile broadsides and markerlights. Ive yet to see a competative tau list that doesnt run at least 6 missile broadsides with 6 missile drones in each unit. Your looking at each unit putting out 20+ S7 hits with markerlight support and thats without the extra S5 hits it should get [another 10]. Your looking at every missile side unit killing 7+ marines. Add to that their durability and you have a brutal army.

Tau are as far away from a tricky tactical army as you can get if you want to play them as a competative list as they can simply line up and win the game against most other lists when you bring the right units.

I can get 30 hounds across the board just fine, although they usually have endurance and sometimes stealth on them with a 3+ invulnerable save. I learned I always go first. If not keep my hounds back or at least out of rapid fire range. 3+ possible 2+ hounds are hard to deal with.

Right now i'm re working my list so I can get endurance more often. Invisibility is really hard to get depending on how i run. A lot of Slaanesh helps. The problem i see with daemons is if you take every reward and power you can spend like 500 points on just upgrades rather easily.

the randomness is not there in a flying circus list that takes fateweaver.


The Man They Call Jayne

Had a gander at the Runes of Battle (i think?) The ones that are either a blessing or a curse, and some of them are really nasty.

Harlequins seem to be unpleasant again though with Veil of Tears as a power now. being invisible untill almost charge range is bad.
Jaynes Awesome Card Counter: +5

Secondspheres Crash Card Counter +4