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6th Edition Daemons and what's better/ new about them.

Started by Chicop76, December 13, 2012, 10:17:51 AM

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Chicop76

I haven't really seen any tactical lately and I have been playing 6th edition Daemons, so I figured I should give it a shot. I'm working on my cell phone and this one is going to take a while since I will try to cover as much as the Daemons as possible. Due to the update I will cover that source material as well. Unfortunately there are some units I haven't used and will use theory to cover them, but experience also helps with this if the model is similar to other models that operate the same. I will use page numbers for the two chaos books and I might do so for the main book. I may also reference FAQ as well. Also any grammar or other errors I will cut and paste when I can get behind a computer and do such.

Playing Daemons rather in last edition or this one is all about placement. The Daemon army as a whole has to deep strike with half the army coming in on first turn. Sadly the army doesn't have nice rules to minimize scatter. I do have to say the more you get used to deep striking the less prone you will be to mishap. I have played several games where I have not mishap at all or mishap maybe once, or twice. Another important thing to remember Daemons is very similar to how Eldar plays. What makes Daemons unique is that it is really 4 armies in one large army. Tzeentch plays like Tau where they focus on shooting attacks, Slaanesh works like dark Eldar/ Eldar with most the army having attack or defensive grenades, and rending with lots of attacks and high initiative, Khorne focuses on high strength, high weapon skill, power sword attacks with some units with a +3 save. Nurgle is mostly poison attacks, high toughness, and feel no pain. The beautiful part of the army is that you can use any of the four forces to create one army. No other army can offer the wide range of unit types and abilities as this one offers. The main drawback is unit customization, but a Daemon Prince and Heralds can be Unique with customizations.

Before I continue I will go over briefly what 6th has done to the four elements.

Tzeentch: by far this faction has received the biggest boost. Namely in over watch and reduced costing units. Mono Tzeentch is more viable than ever before.

Nurgle: another faction that has received a huge boost. Feel No Pain is much better than it was before, yes it's a worst save, but you can save against power weapons, attacks that ignore saves, AP 1 and AP 2 weapons. The only thing that ignores Feel No Pain is instant death attacks. It is possible to get +3 feel No Pain which makes this army very hard to deal with in 6th.

Khorne: I think this force has taken the worst hit out of the 4 other Daemons. They are still playable and it wouldn't be a bad ideal to take them it is just they role has changed big time. The furious charge rule has hit them really hard. This is your best hand to hand faction in the Daemon Army, but they lack grenades. Not only that the lack of the initiative bonus they get for charging is gone. This is big, because they can hit before Initiative 4 units in the open on the charge, but now strike at the same time as those units, which hurts why I take them in the first place is to deal with those initiative 4 models in the first place. To make matters worse over watch has also hit them hard. In 5th marines out in the open may get one or two chances to fire, before the. Khorne Daemons get into contact. Now with over watch the unit you assaulting get extra shooting and you fighting them at the same time. To make maters worst Khorne use to ignore all saves, but their weapons been changed to power swords which means they only ignore 3 and higher. I took Khorne for anti-Terminators in 5th, but with the new rules I have a harder time finding a roll for them. On the bright side they do have a flying creature of death which can get a +2 invulnerable save against all those psychics out there. That being said it is the best anti psyker army in my opinion.

Slaanesh: This army has received new units and in some cases the new rule changes over extra attacks. For example seekers have 6 attacks on the charge, so a unit of 10 can dish out 60 attacks. Due to the Khorne nerf Slaanesh now looks like a more viable option. They were always good with dishing out a lot of attacks, but with rending they can take out terminators as well as swarm models. My complaint is I used Khorne to deal with storm shield terminators and Slaanesh have some problems dealing with them. This is why I can now turn to Tzeentch to do that for me with a unit that is better than the old Khorne Daemons as a whole. The new fleet rules also hurt this army since this was the only Daemon faction that can fleet. Other than the other 3 this faction really didn't see much change in the new edition and plays like they did in 5th with the exception of a few new units.

Before I go into units it is important to understand that the whole army has changed thanks to rule changes. I will now cover those changes

Daemons:

On pg. 35 Main Book: Daemons have fear and +5 invulnerable( unless stated otherwise, for example Fate weaver have a +3 invulnerable save)

P. 35 MB: Fear causes leadership checks every time a Daemon is in base, before combat begins and can lower WS to 1.

The new rules basically for all intents and purposes added fear to daemons. To be honest I am so used to going against armies that's immune to fear I forget to even use it. That being said it is still a good ability. It turns units like horrors into decent melee combatants against armies that succumb to fear. It works against Ork Nobs since they usually don't have 10 in a squad which would make them fearless.

Pg. 27 Chaos Daemon Codex:

Daemons have fearless, Daemonic Assault, Daemonic Rivalry

with Daemonic Assault it forces you to split your army in two with half arriving in turn one. You have a 66% chance of getting what you want to come in and a 33% chance of getting the half you did not want. I use to split my forces equally in half, but now I divide my army into shoot/ melee or troops/ non troops depending on the scenario and what I have. I have found deep striking troops on objectives on turn 3 or higher have turned many games around where I won. In my opinion this is what makes Daemons fun to play, because it's like a box of chocolates. Anyway this gives you the advantage of not being shot at and gives you the opportunity to shoot first and earn first blood. In 6th Daemons is the only army that can have their army in reserve where all other armies have to field half their armies. The advantage to the Daemon player is that he can avoid getting shot first and come in via ds to shoot first earning first blood.

Daemonic Rivalry simply states that you can't have like say a Nurgle Herald join a group of horrors. You can only join units of like gods so a Tzeentch Independent character can only join a unit of Tzeentch. The FAQ states that Daemons can't join any units unless it is also a daemon unit in case you wanted to put a Nurgle Herald in a unit of Plague Marines.

Pg. 36 MB Deep Strike: in this edition it is easier to come in and harder to mishap. On the second and third turns you can come in on a 3+ and automatically on turn 4 which is much better than what it was in 5th which you have a better roll on the second turn and auto come in on the 4th turn instead of the 5th turn. Also losing a unit on a mishap is on a 1 and you have a 50% chance of going back in reserves if you happened to mishap. This change allows you to get a bit more reckless with your deep striking. Some of your units can cover 36" of movement in one turn, so if they get placed by your enemy you can still get back in the fight.

Next I will cover the Daemon abilities. I decided I will also divide the rest into HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support. I was going to divide the book into the 4 chaos gods, but looking how everything is listed I figured it would be easier for me to do it the other way.

I wanted to mention a few things I wanted to say, but forgot.

The Warlord pg. 111 MB: In 6th you have Warlord traits. The possibilities and who should be your Warlord are many. I would say make your Warlord durable. Ku'gath would be a good warlord or an independent character that joined a large squad. There are 18 traits, but I wanted to mention the one or two that are must haves for Daemons.

The strategic traits are a Daemon players dream. Strategic Genius allows you  to re roll your reserve rolling. This allows you to deploy your Daemons quicker and helps you to keep units you want in reserve stay in reserve like scoring units. Personally I like this trait the best. There are other traits, but this one helps out your army as a whole and really helps with your armies dynamic.

Another tidbit is Fortifications. In general you really shouldn't bother with them as a Daemon player. That being said the Sky shield Landing Pad on pg. 115 MB is a good option to take. It allows your units to have a +4 invulnerable and accurate deep striking. The plus side you do not have to worry about the enemy blowing it up while you are off the board. On the down side enemy units can infiltrate on it and limit how many units you can deep strike on the pad. If you are going to go this route having two wouldn't be a bad ideal. I have not used one yet, but for some of your units it would really help out. Also it insures that you can keep your army within 6" of Fate weaver when you come in.


Chicop76

#1
Gifts of Chaos pgs. 73 -75 CDC:

It is important to know that this army has no psykers. When you start throwing gifts out left and right people will think you are using psykers in your force. In 5th having gifts rather than having psychic powers was helpful, because you auto pass, no perils, and immune to Eldar and Marine psychic defenses. Same is true with 6th, but it also denies you to select powers and deny the witch on a roll better than 6. That being said some units get a +2 invulnerable vs. psychic powers like a Zonathorpes warp blast.

Boon of Mutation:

This is a very good ability. You have to roll to hit like a shooting attack to force a unit to take a toughness test and if they fail they turn into a spawn. The good point of this power is that you can pick out who you want out the game within range. Only 3 characters I know off can come back after this power is used like St. Celestine. Against t3 models this is a great ability. Against t4 it is still good, but is harder to pull off. When going against t5 or higher it is doubtful it will work against foes of that magnitude, but it allows you to get rid of a 6 wound eternal warrior model which few abilities can do so. I love this power against guard where I can turn their annoying commissar into a spawn. Another good point is that you get a model for free.

On the downside Boon is a very expensive power to take. Fate weaver is one of less than a handful of characters that come with the power and he's not cheap. Also by putting more models on the board in some scenarios you putting more victory points on the board.

On the fun side you can have 7 models max with this power with one able to using it twice which allows you 8 tries a turn. In a few game turns you're bound to generate a lot of spawn. I almost failed to mention you can use this power in combat as well.

With 6th you can use this power at BS 1 if you are assaulted. The cool part here if it works you can potentially place a spawn between you and your unit which can potentially block them from getting assaulted. It is not likely to happen, but it would be interesting when it does. Even so it will be hard for the spawn to block combat.

Breath of Chaos:

By far the best ability in the game. A flame template that denies armor, cover saves, and auto glance vehicles. It is possible to have 34 units using this power which makes it better than the Grey Knights flame of death which is limited to only a Liberian and is a psychic power. That being said it is as expensive as Boon. There are quite a few models who receive this power for free however. I do want to mention in the White Dwarf update Tzeentch flamers happen to be cheaper than the power itself which means you get a free model and the power at discount.

I would say 6th edition has made this power even better or worse than it was before, it would be worst if you are on the receiving in.

Pg. 52 MB Wall of Death: thanks to this rule flame templates auto hit with random hits. That being said assaulting a squad of flamers can mean the eradication of the assaulting squad. This rule has made this power a big block of cheese.

Chaos Icon:

It allows for accurate deep striking. The main drawback is the icon bearer have to be on the field for the whole turn, so in daemons case it can only in the earliest be used in turn 2 if the bearer arrived in turn 1. Also it cost as much of breath of chaos almost. I don't bother with it and I can take the fortification for triple the cost. Although an icon bearer can use the fortification and in the next turn enable you to deep strike accurately out of your deployment. The problem here is your bearer needs to be durable and mobile which out of your choices you only really get one or the other.

Iron Hide:

A marine save which in some cases really helps out if you have a +5 invulnerable. Khorne is the only faction that has units who receive this power for free.

Daemonic Flight:

What I love about this power you do not have to model wings on your model to have this ability. That being said it wouldn't be a bad ideal to put wings on the model that have this ability. This ability allows your units to move like jump infantry. To be honest this power applies really to Fate weaver, Lord of Change, and The Bloodthirster who receive it for free, while the Daemon Prince has to pay for it, and do they pay for it. To add wings to a prince is almost like buying the prince at base cost twice. That being said Daemonic Flight has received an upgrade in 6th.

In 6th edition Flying Monstrous Creatures have additional rules on pg. 49 in the MB.

You can switch from different flight modes which is swooping or gliding. There is nothing really special about gliding, but with swooping there is much to it. I believe that Daemons are the best flying monstrous creatures in the game. Reason being is the abilities they have, eternal warrior, and invulnerable saves.

Thanks to the FAQ Flying Monstrous Creatures can also fire upon other flyers at their BS. Since all your flying monsters have a BS of 5 that is really good, besides The Bloodthirster which is a 4?

Swooping: moves within 12-24", run double, fire 2 weapons like normal, need 6s to hit, gain a jink save. The only downsides are your jink saves only apply to a prince that doesn't have the Tzeentch affiliation. Also you can become grounded taking a high strength hit. That being said your monstrous creatures are not that easy to kill and with this ability added it makes them much harder to deal with.

Also you can fly over targets and hit unit without worrying about being hit back, you can double your strength in combat via losing half your attacks, and get an extra attack when they assault.

Daemonic Gaze:

Gaze is a good power for a decent cost. All I can really say it is a ranged marine killer. In some ways 6th have made it easier to kill marines since some cover is now 5+ and behind units gives a +5 as well, but thanks to 6th they likely to take fortifications which shouldn't be a problem for any of your Monstrous creatures to deal with. Also with 3 shots you are more likely to hit something in over watch. I always take this power and it is very helpful against +3 saving armies.

Unholy Might:

Thanks to smash this power I would say is not as good as before. The extra strength like in the bloodthirsters case is good because it can cause instant death to t4 models, although on the charge it can do the same, however since combat last a bit longer in some cases it would still be nice to cause instant death the following turns without have to resort to smash.

Instrument of Chaos:

Very cheap upgrade which does pretty much the same thing in 6th. I take it only because I can't fit my points anywhere else. In 5th it did help cut down on your unit making savings throws. Since it can break ties and cheap it really is not a bad upgrade.

Gifts of Khorne:

Blessing of the Blood God: I would say this is much better in 6th than in 5th. Due to people taking more psykers this cheap upgrade can help out a lot. I always take it whenever possible. I love it against Grey Knights since their force weapons will now give my Khorne model a +2 invulnerable save.

Death Strike:

A plasma pistol and one of the few ranged Khorne attacks. It has its uses, but unless you playing Mono Khorne it isn't really worth it. If it was cheaper than it would be worth it, but at its cost you have better abilities.

Fury of Khorne:

Rending??? Really??? On the plus side it allows your units to possibly his a lot harder than they normally would. Also it helps with the Hell blade nerf. That being said it isn't an ability that everyone can have and is limited to a few models.

Hell Blade:

6th edition nerfed this power weapon. I think I mention this nerf several times now and may mention it some more. This is pretty standard throughout your Khorne army with few exceptions.  :'( I cry. Thank You 6th.

Gifts of Tzeentch

Bolt of Tzeentch: a multi- melta without the melta designation. For Tzeentch this is your bread and butter to crack tanks at range which at max you can have 14 shots. I would say flying Monstrous Creatures are great with this power since you can use it to deal with other flyers.

Master of Sorcery:

This is a really cheap great Tzeentch power. It allows Fate weaver for example shoot 3 times instead of two. Also in the case of flying MC's you can fire 3 times instead of twice. So you can do a vector strike, breath of chaos, and gaze a unit all in one go. The drawback to this power is while cheap your other powers are very costly. It is easy to have a Tzeentch Prince cost as much as a BloodThrister sadly it can hit close to 300 points which is way too much for a Tzeentch Prince.

Soul Devourer:

Not like this weapon is widely used anyway. That being said thanks to 6th it is an AP 3 weapon. The problem with it your Herald is like a Tau so actually wounding and hitting with is unheard of. Your prince can take it which gets rid of the AP 3, but to get the instant death effect your opponent must fail a leadership check. I think it is ok personally, but it is not a bad choice on a prince.

Warp Fire:

While gaze is reserved for you elite Warp fire is for your troops and flamers. The amount of shots you dish out is great and the fact you bypass anything short of marine armor makes it equally good. You have a higher chance to get a decent over watch as well. If your flamers are out of flame range they can always fall back to this ability.

We Are Legion:

Very Expensive power which only 2 models just come with it. However it allows you to split fire as much as you like and shoot separately from a joined unit.

In 6th this power is helpful to your flying MCs. It is helpful cause you can focus on ground troops with your powers and use bolt to shoot other flyers out of the air, so for example Fate weaver can use breath of chaos in a squad of terminators killing a few, use bolt to wipe out 2 marines out in the open, and then use bolt to down a flyer all in the same go possibly taking out 3 units at once.

Gifts of Slaanesh:

Aura of Acquiescence:

Assault and defensive grenades for the win. Almost all your Slaanesh models have this. Thanks to over watch you will lose a few to gun fire before you get this advantage.

Pavane of Slaanesh:

Very good ability. This and breath of chaos is op. Pavane is good for turning walkers around with rear armor exposed, bunching models up for template death, pulling models closer or away, pulling them out of cover, etc. The limited movement makes it hard to do things like take a unit out of cover, but I had one squad of flamers take out 3 squads since I bunched three squads up and lined them up so I can flame all three squads, which was awesome.

Rending Claws:

You can now glance death walkers with your seekers. 6th made it easier for Slaanesh modes to take out vehicles.

Soporific Musk:

Hit and Run. It's a good ability which taking on a steed can provide 2 extra attack every time you charge a unit.

Transfixing Gaze:

Gaze is a good ability to use when you presented with a challenge against another character. In 6th since you can now challenge subtracting attacks will help you win the challenge.

Aura of Decay:

It is great against hordes, and can be used in combat, other than that not really impressive. It can over watch, but I doubt it can kill a single model with a single hit.

Cloud of Flies: = Aura of Acquiescence, nuff said.

Noxious Touch:

Same as in 5th which it wounds on anything, but a one. This power is great on MCs since they ignore saves. A must have for Nurgle Princes.

Plague Sword:
Same a touch, but wounds half the time.


Chicop76

#2
I decided that instead of going into Daemonic Steeds I would just cover the Hearlds with the steeds. Lastly I have the Marks which I will reserve for the Princes.

Daemonic Heralds:

The Heralds are a 2 for one deal. In other words you can field 4 of them as a HQ. Another fact is wen taken as allies you can take 2 as your HQ slot. If you could take them with space wolves that's 6 hqs you can field.

The Masque:

Not too much differance from last, but I just realised that she can go into overwatch with Pavane. The cool thing is you can move a unit back where they are outside of assault range.

The real reason to bother with her is she can Pavane 3 differant units in the shooting phase. As her point she is used to use Pavane on 3 units which could be great mixed with other units in your army. Like a Bolt of Tzeentch in a dreadnoughts back.

Another reason to take he is she is durable with a +3 invulnerable and when near Fateweaver almost unkillable. She can easily use hit and run to exit combat andthe use her Pavane again. If you looking for the annoying factor she fits the bill. Not to many models in the game allow you to touch other people's models.

Epidemius:

This character in my opinion is the best force multiplier in the game. Tally of Pestilence gives all - reading the FAQ those abilities can give all Nurgle models friend, or foe, marine, or deamon +2 to wound in combat with poison, +3 feel no pain, and ignore save rather in shooting, or in melee.

Tally is even better in 6th thanks to the rule change. Now your Daemons can last longer thanks to being at least toughness 5 which limits instant death attacks to strength 10, only negates feel no pain, and you have an invulnerable with eternal warrior. GreyKnights for example will have to choose to use their force weapon to negate feel no pain or take the added strength to put wounds on you now. I faced Nurgle Daemons with Grey Knights and it is a pain to combat them. It is better to shot them.

Aura of Decay is useful for combat and can be deadly when it starts to ignore saves.

The Blue Scribes:

They or it have a lot of abilities which ranges from Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh. Overwatch can be interesting since he can double wall of death you and possible wipe out 6 charging models.

I would say if he hangs with flamers it would be a good choice. Remember he gets hammer of wraith for 5 attacks on the charge. Like it would really do anything. He can however shoot seperately from a flamer unit and provide differant types of powers fr the occasion. He can also Pavane which can possibly work twice.

The only negative is if you want to like say Pavane twice you still have to pick a second ability to target the second unit you shooting at, either the Pavane goes off or the second ability goes off either or not both. You have to select his first power and second target wisely. For example you want to use bolt on a vehicle and than flame a unit that is about to assault you. What can happen is that you bolt twice once at the vehicle and once into the unit near by, or vise versa where you flame the unit, but the vehicle is outside of flame range. It would be a good ideal to think ahead in case your power doubles.

SkullTaker:

I would say I have used him in 5th on Juggernaut and on Chariot, before I go into mounts I will cover them with the other Hearlds. That being said he has taken a hit in 6th, but is still very usable. He is very well worth his points.

In 6th Skulltaker is now a better option than a Khorne hearld. The reason being is the Hell Blade nerf, so a Khorne Hearld will now have a tough time facing down +2 armour while Skulltaker have a +4 to rend which makes up for the hellblade nerf. Although in some cases he woul be wounding on 2s  :facepalm001: which your rolls of 2-3 are now savable to wound against terminatots for example.

He also have regular rending when facing vehicles, also he get's the nice +2 save vs psychic powers and force weapons.

I suggest alway mount him. Model wise good luck modeling that. Once you properly destroyed your cool looking model either mount would do. However on chariot you can get away from totally destroying your model. On Juggernaunt he is much more durable and can join any squad of Khorne.

The ability to challenge has made this model better. I failed to mention he instant kills on a +4 to wound as well. Any opponent right in the head would decline a challenge with this guy. He has a high weapon skill which means he probablly be hiting on 3s and fear can kick in making this guy worst than he is already. Also he has a lot of attacks by the way. I can honestly say he should be able to best any model within his own point cost. Mephiston vs Skulltaker would be a very one sided fight in Skulltakers favor. I would recomend to challenge away.

I would say it is still viable to put him in a squad of Juggernaughts. He is still a good unit and really doesn't need to be put on the shelf.

However on a Chariot he can have as much as 4 wounds. The problem is he becomes a target. He cost as much as a cheap max out Nurgle Prince and can be consided as strong as a cheap MC. With challenges it is ok for him to be byhimself cause he still can wipe marine units by himself. Their are pros and cons to both mounts. On a Chariot however do not be surprised he gets blow away. Which isn't a bad thing if palyed right cause the other units are being ignored. I use the Chariot as a destraction which works really well. Either you kill my flamers or kill Skulltaker, either one will make your day bad.

Herald of Khorne:

Well thanks to the hellblade nerf not as good in 6th as it was in 5th and the Skulltaker now turns into an attaractive option. Even so they are stil worth taking.

Taking a Juggernaught grants a +1 to half your stats and grants a +3 save. For around 100 points this guy can still beat down most models outside a +2 save. This is with just the mount upgrade which used to be more than enough and with blessing of the blood god.

Taking a Chariot does the same as above, but you now have a 4 wound model and you lose independant statis. That being said I have seen the 7 4 wound models plus juggernaught army do some damage. For under 450 points you can easily run 4 4 wound hqs at toughness 5 which is hard to beat down and for 300 points more you can throw in really cheap MCs with the same wounds and toughness.

With the options you have taing unholy might is not a bad choice for a possible strength 6/7 model.

Death strike on this model isn't bad in terms of cost, but with a bs of 3 you start to wonder why even bother.

This is an icon bearer which 4 hq juggernaught mounts is hard to get through to get to the icon. Another fact is this model can also rend which will be helpful in 6th.

I want to note that mounts do differant things to each god. The Khorne mounts do not help in movement. Further more the chariot does not follow the chariot rules in the MB.

Herald of Tzeentch:

You can add the hearld to a disk of Tzeentch which adds a +1 attack and turns the model into jump infantry, or you can place him in a chariot which gives extra toughness, attacks, and turns the Hearld into a 5 wound mode, butby doingso the cariot rider loses IC statis, but gains Furious Charge.

The chariot option is a very good option due to it is cheap, you have the model for it, and it count as a jetbike which gives the unit the jetbike rules for 6 attacks on the charge. Even at strength 4 the poor weapon skill makes assault less than desirable. Although the units mobility isvery very good and it is a pretty durable unit for how mobile it is.

The model automatically comes with Daemonic Gaze which is nice. At basic cost it is one of the cheapest HQs out there and fits in nicely with a squad of horrors, while a disk is great with tagging with flamers.

With bs this unit makes for great fire support. You can take MoS for two shooting attacks, and WaL is rather cheap and makes split fire an option for this unit. You can either run up and flame units, or sit back and shoot with two shooting attacks. I have taken bolt, WaL, and MoS which have worked very well for me. I can bolt vehicles while I can split fire and gaze troops.

You can take Soul Devourer which on a chariot would be worth the points you are paying into this weapon. 5 possible instant death attacks at strength 4 is still worth something. Also you can issue a challenge which your opponent might agree to since looking at this models stats it doesn't look like a threat in combat.

I am waiting to see what they do with daemons before I run my chariots. Chariots might be better or worst in the future, so I want to wait and see. I have my friend working on two ,but it's been awhile and I would like my models back.

Hearld of Nurgle:

You can opt for a Palanquin which adda to attacks and wounds. I would say it's not a bad option for it's really cheap cost.

Out of all the options cloud of flies, noxious touch, and breath of chaos makes for thebest options. If you took the tallyman breath of chaos will help add to tallies, while touch helps you to wound better and flies helps you go before power fist and reduce enemy attacks.

I said what I said with the Tallyman, so refer back to him for my 6th edition comments. You can take an icon which isn't a bad option. Might in my opinion is a waste of points, and aura is nuff said.

Herald of Slaanesh:

The mount of Slaanesh is similar to the Tzeentch mount execpt it counts as calvary. That being said thanks to 6th edition that is 7 attacks on the charge.

If you opt for a charior it's very similar to the Tzeentch one. Although this model has 8 attacks on the carge with a +4 invulnerable save that counts as cavalry with 5 wounds.

If mounted the model would work really well with seekers. Although like I said earlier 4 5 wound chariots with 8 attacks with strength 4 rending is something you can"t really ignore.

Unholy might is actually a very good choice here. With 8 possible str 4/5 attacks you can do some damage. Having inititiave 7 allows you to attack before most things. Not to mention having a decent weapon skill to boot.

Transfixing gaze is what I call the challenger option. It is great if you are challenging units with. Musk is also a great option which allows you to exit combat. You can exit combat and re enter combat with 8 strength 5 attacks.

Gaze and Pavane would be good if you have a better bs. Gaze is ok, while Pavane will only work half the time and is rather expensive. I would say might and musk should be an automataic, while it is a toss up on which gaze you want to use.

Note: All heralds can tak icons. If I didn't mention it I am mentioning it here.


Chicop76

#3
I will break this down to the MC section which is both Hq and Heavy Support.

Ku'Gath' The Plaguefather:

This model received much love in 6th. Thanks to the change in feel no pain the only way to get rid of his fnp is to hit him with a weapon that causes instant death. Having toughness 6 stops strength 10 weapons becoming an issue.

Throw in the tallyman this unit becomes a huge pain. Yes he is one of the most expensive models in the game, but in this edition you can easily see why.

He has assault and defensive grenades with breath of chaos, aura of decay is really nice once he enters combat. His Necrtotic missles is the pie plate version of breath of chaos minus the glancing vehicles. If you need the tallies to roll he is your man. As a side note he poops nurglings which can be annoying in it's own right.

Fateweaver:

I mention this guy several times so far. I would say this model just strait up and say hello I'm here to break all your rules. He has all Tzeentch powers and a +3 invulnerable. He is the highest costing model in the 40k game.

For deamons he provides a re roll to save aura to all those around him. So if Ku'Gath is near Ku'Gath would have a 4+ re rollable save on top of a +5 feel no pain roll. To make matters worst most players will have him in swoop mode making him even harder to hit. With all that said he falls victim to the psychic battle squad which can lower his leadership to 2, by doing so if you can put one wound on him the model takes a leadership test and if he fails he is gone. Although you may need 6s to hit him, get pass 5 toughness, and a re rollable +3 to save.

In 6th I have yet to lose my Fateweaver, due to the new daemone units and to swooping. He has been wounded about 5 times in like 10 games. That is much better that what it was in 5th. Although I did have Fateweaver die to 5 firewarriors and a melta shot from a dread while he had all his wounds and both only did one wound to him. That being said majority of the time he is going to last most of the game. Either your opponent will waste his army trying to kill him, or just ignore him and deal with re rolling saving Daemons.

I would say screamers, and tzeentch chariots running with the weaver has worked very well. Also flamers too since all units can move within 12". Also while the weaver is swooping he doesn't block line of sight.

All that being said my army does just as good with him or without him. Due to his huge cost he limits how many units you can field like 15 flamers or 15 screamers. When I say it like that people have no problem droping Fateweaver.

SkarBrand, The Exiled One:

First off I want to say this is not a bad model, but you are forced to build your army around him. In some ways he makes your army easier to beat. If you have a huge shooting base as your army I suggest not taking him.

Ok he has the exact same stats as a Bloodthirster beside 1 extra attack and higher strength. That being said the Bloodthirster is a flying MC which is super good, while Skarband has fleet. In other words a thirster now have hammer of wrath that provides an extra attack, can vector strike, can only be hit on 6s, etc, and can get the same strength as Skarband and still be cheaper.

On the plus side Skarbrand has BoC which the Thirster sadly can't take. You can argue he gets BoC for free, which still doesn't justify fielding him.

The reason you take Skarbrand is that he is a force multiplier. On the good side you get to re roll to hit in combat, while on the bad side your enemy can do the same.

In a heavy Slaanech army Skarbrand is really good. Remember the 8 attacks on the charge herald can now re roll hits. Also let's say 10 daemonettes charge marines for 40 attacks. 30 attacks would get throw killing 5 maines due to rending and maybe killing 2 more due to failed saved. Even though the 3 remaining marines can re roll to hit back the daemonettes will easily beat them. If the squad was seekers the resaults would be worse.

Nurgle can also benefit from Skarbrand and once the tallies get rolling re rolling to hit max tally nurgle minions will dominate the field. Sadly the other two factions do not see much benefit in the re rolling as Nurgle and Slaanech. That being said armies like dark eldar would be more of a problem to deal with than what they already are.

I wouldn't say never use him, but for around the same points I rather a regular bloodthirster.


Keeper of Secrets:

For what this model does it is not bad in cost. At basic cost with ws 8 and I 10 with 6 attacks,  or 8 attacks on the charge is not bad. However the upgrades can get costly.

What I said for the Herald of Slaanesh is the same for this model. Might is helpful against t5 models and musk allows for re charging.

The main weakness is the amount of wounds it can take. 8 wounds on average will kill this model. A +3 would help out greatly. I lose this guy to shooting a lot, so it's rare to get him/her in combat. Fateweaver helps, but it is still a fraigle model compaired to your other choice.

Great Unclean One:

The cheapest HQ MC that you have. Same stats as Ku'Gath minus one wound, and attack. Comes with +2 to wound at base cost and have feel no pain. If you feel Ku'Gath simlpy cost too much this option is still a good choice. Still staying under 200 you can take BoC and CoF for ranged killing and to hit before fist assaulting units in cover. Aura is very costly on this model, and might is not really need since he can simply smash or wound on 2 anyway. Being slow and purposeful is the models draw back. Other than that it is a good model for what it cost.

Bloodthirster:

Thanks to 6th edition it is one of your best models you can field. You can enter in swoop mode and either swoop around for vector strike hits, or postion yourself to assault during your turn. I have not read the new Chaos Marine Book as of yet, but I would say this is the best melee model in the game. Against force weapon characters it gets a +2 invulnerable, a lot more survivbale to reach combat, can beat down anyone in a challenge. The only model I can think can hold it's own is a swarmlord. Out of 3 combats with 1 I always killed it with my Thrister. That being said I did lower it to like 1-2 wounds before I assaulted the lord The Thirster on average on the charge will would the swarmlord twice while the lord on average will wound the Thirster once. However Iron Arm can now make a differance in how the combat goes and make it a more even fight.

Death Strike is expensive for what it does. Although you have a bs 4 which make it now a bit more appealing. Blessing should always be taken. It point cost is way too good not to take, and might does make a big differance. Having strength 8 that is strength 9 on the charge means on intitiave you wound most MCs on 2s with the Wraithlord being the exception. Even wounding a wraith on 3s and 4s you will beat it down rather badly thanks to ws 10.

Lord of Change:

6th edition has made this model more viable. I droped my Thirster in favor of taking a LoC. The reason being is it is really hard to kill this model, even harder to kill it by Fateweaver. Also it gives me anti air options. LoC and Fateweaver have bs 5 and with str 8 ap 1 shots it isn't to hard to take out most flyers. The problem I find is taking other powers. At base it has bolt and gaze which are really good powers. MoS is cheap, but not an option unless you pick another power which easily can hit you in the 300 range. WaL added on put you at Fateweaver cost without some abilities and the re roll to save. I would say it's best to take a basic LoC. It would be nice to split fire or shoot more, but is not worth it for how much you pay for it.

Daemon Prince of Chaos:

Man this is a really good costing unit as is. For 110 points you can have a decent MC with a good save. The ws 7, s 5, I 5 is good enough at this. If you want to build what I call the swarm of high toughness model list this costing model with Khorne Heralds on Chariots will be very tough to deal with. With 6th edition for 170 points you can have a winged prince with breath of chaos. Long as you flying you can jink and when you get close you can flame units and do vector strike.

My problem with this model is is has a high ws and bs, which mean it fits both roles very well. Unholy might is worth taking since str 6 wounds t4 models on 2s and instant kill t3 models.

You can give your Princes marks from each god.

Khorne Deamon Prince:

While Death strike is slightly high it is still a good choice for this model, you can't complain about plasma shots that hit on 2s. Blessing is also a given and a must have, so far you prince is within reasonable price I suggest wings and iron hide. Yes it's expensive, but very durable thanks to swooping. Might is a good choice, yet by taking it with everything so far it comes really close to a base thirster. Switching Strike for Might is also valid. If you Vector Striking Might isn't a bad option.

Slaanesh Daemon Prince:

The cheapest base prince to take. Pavane in my opinion is a good option, but much too expensive to take. This is the best model to have Pavane on due to bs 5, but I feel it's cost does not justify the rewards. Aura is a must as with Musk. Gaze again would be good to take if you challenge with this model. BoC and the other Gaze can be added which I think gaze wouldn"t be a bad option. Going back to what I said about the other two I think vector striking would be good for this model as well.

In my opinion for 230 points I think a non mark prince with hide, flight, might, and gaze wouldn't be a bad ideal. Sure the Khorne Prince has 5 attacks and the Slaanesh one is I 6. I still think vector striking is the way to go. If you drop might the cost sits around 200 which isn't really bad.

Nurgle Prince:

I would say again vector strike for the win. Although this is going to be one expensive model.

Tzeentch Prince:

I always go with the Tzeentch Prince and use them as gun platforms. The better invlnerable makes them more surviable and the high bs allows them to shoot far without fail. Soul Devourer is not a bad ideal for what it cost. Bolt is always a must take. I feel like you have a choice between Gaze and Boc.

You can opt for a flying gun platform which will hit you for 220 points with flight, gaze, and bolt. Although if you are going this route I would take BoC over Gaze due to your movement. Bolt is still handy in case you need to shoot flyers out of the air which the winged Tzeentch Prince have a higher chance of doing so than any other prince.

I suggest keeping your princes cheaper than you MC HQ. For exampl your LoC at base is going to be better than your Tzeentch Prince no matter what you give him. When you start costing more than a model that is clearly better than the higher costing one that at that point you are wasting points.

That being said wings is more justified in 6th than in 5th. Now I am slowly thinking of winging my MCs now.


Chicop76

#4
Elites

Finally of gear MCs and HQs. The rest of the army is not as complicted as the Heralds and the Princes and the HQ MCs. I might be able to fit the rest of the army in this post.

Flamers of Tzeentch:

The 6th edition codex update has given this unit some love which really wasn't needed. I used to describe the model as a model with breath of chaos and a flying t4 model for only 5 points which I said was a steal. Now you get breath of chaos at a reduced cost of 7 points and a two wound model for free. If for some strange reason you didn't use this model in 5th. You have bait to use it in 6th. Throw in overwatch you get these guys as a grand heist.

In 6th edition it is very easy to make up for the cost you put into these guys. I use to run squads of 3 and now I run them in 5s. The reason being the reduced cost allows me to field more which in turn makes them last longer. Also I'm getting higher rate overwatch shots and survivability.

Did I mention now that vehices can be now glanced to death this is the unit to do so. The deep strike in your face methord still works, but now since it's fieasble to take them in larger squads it makes a lot of sence to deep stike them safely and warp fire, and than fly in and flame your target.

They lost the ability to take bolt which really wasn't a bad option at their bs. Now they are so cheap why bother since you can glance death a landraider anyway.

Also you for whatever reason can take a Pyrocaster. The only benefit of doing so is to help your unit survive a bit longer. If like say Mr. Avatar of Khaine assaults your flamers you can issue Mr. Kaine a challenge which in this case he has to accept. By doing so you can give your Pyrocaster some re rolls and if the Avatar dished out 4 unsaved wounds only your Pyrocaster dies and your squad live another turn.

On the charge these guys have 4 attacks. However besides vehichiles why on earth would you assault with them since their over watch is soo good. In case you didn't take out a vehicle str 4 is still strong enough to glance rear armour 10. Keep in mind with 4 attacks each they can have a good chance of getting that 1 or 2 glances they need to take out the vehicle. I loved it when my opponent was wondering why I assaulted them into vehicles in 5th.

Fiends of Slaanesh:

This is what I called the 5th edition band wagon unit since all Daemon players, but me swore by them. They where the cheapest elites with 2 wounds and now they are the second cheapest which the units I played all along got better..

Anyway I will go into why I don't like them. Unlike the other Slaanesh models the lack grenades. Run in terrain and blast away. With over watch it is even better to kill them.

That being said the have 7 attacks on the charge at strength 5. Might isn't a bad upgrade, but with the amount of attacks you dishing out why bother.

They count as beast which allows them to cover more ground. Although seekers are not as durable or strong 2 seekers can dish out much more attacks than one fiend. Also fiends take up my flamers spot which I need 3 squads, because 3 is that magic number where at least on average one squad should not scatter.

Fiends are still a good choice, but flamers even before their upgrade is now much better.

BloodCrushers of Khorne:

In 5th you can play wound allocation madness and when run with Khorne Heralds on Juggeranuts was a very difficult unit to defeat. You can still kinda do the same thing however you will have to rotate models to provide the same effect. Look out sir rolls also is an issue and for example you take two hearlds you can allocate wounds to at least 2 other models.

The problem with this unit is the Furious Charge and Hellblade nerf. Against Terminators they are no longer and option which makes fiends a better option or seekers.

Beast of Nurgle:

You can easily argue that 2 plague bearers is 4 attacks on the charge and 2 after that while on average a beast has 4 atacks on the charge and 3 afterwards. I see it as for 5 points more I am getting an extra attack on a model that can not score. It is hard to justify taking this unit. Yes 7 attacks possible on the charge is nice, but 2 possible isn't. If it had something like better movement just something I would say go with it, but out of all the Elites I can say I will never field this option unless they change the book.

Troops:

Bloodletters of Khorne:

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but 6th = Khorne nerf. However the letters are still solid and still a threat with anything but a +2 invulnerable. Now that we have to contend with over watch and no Inititiave bonus on the charge taking larger squads wouldn't be a bad ideal.

Daemonettes of Slaanesh:

Besides the change in fleet ad the addition to over watch not much of a huge differance. They're now a better option than letters overall. However I would say taking a squad of 20 would be the wise thing to do.

Plaguebearers of Nurgle:

The fnp change is a big help to this unit. I should had mention the going to ground nerf which stops you from have a +3 cover save in most cover now. Static regular fire hurst more, but plasma doesn't and you have better saves against it. Still a decent choice.

Nurglings:

Best swarm in the game due to eternal warrior and an invulnerable save. However they still can't score. I don't see the point in taking them. That means less troops that can score.

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch:

For almost nothing you can get bolt and The Changeling. This unit is a better unit due to the over watch rules. I would say bigger squads make more sence, but I will stick to my 5 man bolt squads. Reason being I provide more range fire vs anti tank and more scoring units and the reuction of wasted shots. Although 30 strength 4 shots is not to overlook from a 10 man squad if you take 20 strong that's 60 shots which should easily wipe anythin they shoot upon.

Fast Attack

Flesh Hounds of Khorne:

They great against grey knights in combat. Other than that they are an ok unit that can puta decent amount of wounds on an enemy unit. I think there are better fast attack options out there

Furies of Chaos:

Thanks to 6th they get 14 attacks on the charge. Costing the same as hounds I would say hounds is a better choice if I was to choose between the two.


BigToof

I think this is going to be really great.

Hope I don't overstep my boundaries, but I'm going to +1 you for this :)

Best,
-BT
BigToof Points:

Cammerz: 8
Waaaghpower: 1
The Man They Call Jayne: 3
Mabbz: 6
Archon Sharrek: 3

Chicop76

#6
Quote from: BigToof on December 14, 2012, 09:10:42 PM
I think this is going to be really great.

Hope I don't overstep my boundaries, but I'm going to +1 you forhis :)

Best,
-BT

Tx. I have to work this weekend and hopefully I will finish fast support and heavy support during thweek. I needed a break cause my head felt like it was going to blow. Also I need to re edit as well.

If anyway disagrees are think I needto mention anything else let me know and I will add or change my info.

Well I am going over and editing this post now. Fast Attack and Heavy Support is in the works. Some units I have to add or change info since I played more 6th edition games with them. Also things like swoop mode make a few differances as well.

Also they new chariots I have to run them through the paces. I have to say that they have a lot of things going on. Not saying they are good nor bad. Just saying they are interesting. My opinion which is biasesd is open topped vehicles really with so low armour. Although they are cheap. If you have the funds you can run a lot of them and they do mow down troops.