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Space Marines First Impressions

Started by The Man They Call Jayne, September 08, 2013, 07:36:06 PM

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The Man They Call Jayne

Ok, I have played a game against them now and my first impressions are a little mixed.

New stuff that I played against:

Grav Weapons
Devastator Centurions
Stalker
Hunter

So, Devastators. I really don't like these. From a fluff point of view they are just a giant ass pull for no good reason. Points wise. . .not horrific I suppose. These particular ones had Grav Cannons and Grav Amp and the Hurricane Bolters. Now, Grav Weapons, I HATE them. Wounding on Sv, AP AND Concussive. They are rediculous, and the re-roll to wound from the Amp is worse. They are massivly unbalanced and unless you run at them with no real armour, you are borked.

If they were AP- I would probably be fine with them, but they aren't. They are stupidly powerful and render whole sections of armies useless. The Centurions themselves. . .Im just not sold on. Maybe I would be less irritated if they weren't just Hazard Suits with the Jet Packs removed. So far, short of bombarding them with loads of plasma I can't see a reasonable way of efficiently dispatching them. They can soak up small arms, T5 makes them pretty resistant to Missile Launchers and Battlecannons and similar.

Stalker:

Well, not a terrible unit, its at least sensible. The guns suffer if you try and split fire and you cant fire at ground targets without snapshots. The armour is ok and the cost is good. Against flyers it has the potential to be devastating but I can't help but think they gave it twinlinked just so they had something to take away for a penalty for split firing.

Hunter:

Just. . .I hate this thing. The vehicle itself isn't bad, its the same as the stalker, but that weapon? Fuck no. Armourbane, AP2 and it CANNOT miss. If it misses, the missile chases you around UNTIL it hits you. Unless you leave airspace you WILL be hit by it, and in the rear armour to boot. Now, if you fire it at a ground based tank, you will probably miss, but thats ok, because it is MORE accurate if you miss the first time. AND there is no way to avoid that missile, because tanks can't leave the table. You just have to hope you can find good cover.



Anyone else had any interesting game with these new things? Any thought/opinions on these or the rest of the codex?
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Arguleon-veq

#1
The Hunter is terrible, you dont get a Savant Lock counter against ground targets, only flying monsters and flyers.

The Stalker is good value but it is in a very stacked slot and Im not seeing many flyers these days anyway, well worth it if people in your area use a lot but by no means broken.

Devi Centurians are amazing but not because of Grav Weps, the Grav Weapons on them are way too short ranged to make them any kind of serious threat add that to the fact that Devi Centurians are slow, they should very rarely get to engage a high priority target with those Grav weps. They will just get killed by Riptides, Railgun Broadsides, Ravagers, Wraithknights, Marine Lascannons etc. I think this kit out will come to dominate;

6 Devi Centurians; Twin Linked Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Omniscope.

You make the army Imperial Fists and this squad is getting 6 twin linked Lascannons and 6 Missile Launcher shots that are Tank Hunters, have Night Fighting and the Sarg can split fire. Say goodbye to any Wraithknights, Riptides, Monsters, Broadsides, any Tanks etc.

Im liking the look of this list;

Imperial Fists - 1850

Libby
5 Tacs - Heavy Bolter
5 Tacs - Heavy Bolter
5 Tacs - Heavy Bolter
5 Tacs - Heavy Bolter
6 Centurians - Las/Missiles/Omni
6 Centurians - Las/Missiles/Omni
3 Centurians - Las/Missiles/Omni
Defense Line.

I cant see many armies that can stand up to 15 Twin Linked Tank Hunting Lascannons and 15 Tank Hunting Missiles every turn, especially when they are on such durable bodies made even more so by that defense line.

Or you could be really mean and use a skyshield for 3+ cover on those centurians, you could drop the big squads to 5 guys each then you could also get in two outflanking camo cloaked scout squads to help with scoring and upp the libby to lvl2.
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The Man They Call Jayne

No Savant Lock against ground targets eh? Cheating goit. My Barracuda should still be alive then.
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salamut2202

I don't see many people using grav weaponry (with the exception of White Scars biker lists) simply because they're a short ranged salvo weapon which cost as much as a plasma weapon and, well, plasma goes more in more situations I reckon, it's worth the 1/18 chance of dying.

Might see them on centurions, but they get expensive real fast.

Waaaghpower

Argulon Veq, one word: Doomscythes. They'll just go LOL at your 1000+ points of models with neither skyfire nor an invuln, then ID you to death with impunity.
If you go second, then Vindicators will be an issue too. Nob Bikers will hurt, (since they'll still get their 4+ cover, and feel no pain, and have 2 wounds each,) and that's just a few armies off the top of my head.
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Arguleon-veq

Not really, Doomscythes are shot down pretty handily by that many twin linked lascannons, you wont actually get all that many with the line and then thanks to the Skyshield your getting a 3+ cover against it anyway.

Vindicators should never be able to get within range and again, on a Skyshield your getting 3+ cover and Nob Bikers will take lots of damage but should actually really struggle to assault models on top of a Skyshield as to get close enough to get within charge range often means you cant actually see the models on top to be able to actually charge them.

Doomscythes would work really well against them if you only took a Defense Line though.

Im actually thinking allying 2x5 Centurians with 3x5 HB Tacs and a Libby with a Mantle Bike Seer, 2x3 Bikes [so you have fast scoring and a fast contester] and a Wraithknight [for more high strength shots and some anti combat]. Then obviously having the Cents on the Skyshield with the Tacs, Wraithknight behind it, Bike in Reserve and the Mantle Seer giving the Cents re rolls to hit with their missiles.
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Kur'os

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 08, 2013, 07:36:06 PM

Grav Weapons, I HATE them. Wounding on Sv, AP AND Concussive. They are rediculous, and the re-roll to wound from the Amp is worse. They are massivly unbalanced and unless you run at them with no real armour, you are borked.

If they were AP- I would probably be fine with them, but they aren't. They are stupidly powerful and render whole sections of armies useless.

I agree.  I was fine with the idea of the grav weaponry, but then I read the AP2, absurd number of shots, and graviton ability.  Were it not for their "short range" I'd simply wonder why even include antiques like lascannons at all?  At least Demon players will be happy.

Obviously the Centurions are meant to be the new flavor of the month, but this is silly.

-Kur'os

The Man They Call Jayne

It bugs me because they have been dishing out all these nice MCs lately, then NOT given Marines one and instead given them a weapon able to utterly decimate them. AND any elite troops you might have. The whole wounding on 2s/3s (against anything you are likely to be using them against) and then in the case of Centurions, re-rolling that roll is just stupid, and being Salvo 5 on Centurions is worse. 15 AP shots from a unit of 3.

The range really isn't that big of a deal because you can put them in a Landraider, or a Storm Raven, and they have the Toughness to weather the small arms fire. The best thing to kill them with is a crap ton of Plasma or MORE Centurions.
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salamut2202

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 10, 2013, 11:03:35 AMThe range really isn't that big of a deal because you can put them in a Landraider, or a Storm Raven, and they have the Toughness to weather the small arms fire. The best thing to kill them with is a crap ton of Plasma or MORE Centurions.
I'm standing by what I said about centurions and grav weapons going to eventuate into being a rare sight. I already talked about why in common ta squads and even veteran squads you're unlikely to see them (because they compete with plasma) but if centurions were expensive before, then if you're going to get them a transport they're going to be abhorrent. One does not simply 'take a transport' with these fatties. We're talking landraiders and stormravens. You'll be dishing more than 500 points out to get these guys to work, and they're not going to be able to do much gainst that brood of gaunts or that squad of boys that will invariably tie them up. Sniper kroot can deal with them without much challenge, so can a squad of bloody kabalites.

Sorry, I still don't see them getting much use at all.

Narric

While I cannot really contribute to this thread myself, I do think this blog posting can be used as good fuel for dscussion:

http://h2lat40k.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/first-impressions-6th-ed-space-marines.html

The Man They Call Jayne

A Storm Raven carries a great deal of firepower AND a Dreadnought if you have one, and alongside the Grav stuff on the Centurions are Hurricane Bolters which are quite at home against hordes. Against Suit heavy Tau and the vast majority of MEQ Armies, there is enough AP2 Wounding on 3s to make these things worth it.
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Arguleon-veq

At the end of the day people started dropping broadsides because of their range issues, and they are range 36''.

I was thinking of Grav Cents in Land Raiders at first but it just eats way too many points.
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The Man They Call Jayne

Set up properly and a 36" range is plenty. My broadsides are my real money winners at the moment.
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KCKitsune

I would like it if I could get an support system for my broadsides that would allow me to deal with AV 14 tanks.  If they would make something like this:

Enhanced Capacitors (20pt):  A broadside equipped with enhanced capacitors changes the profile of heavy rail rifles to Heavy 1, Lance.
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Arguleon-veq

I am actually quite liking Legion of the Damned, they will be even better when they FAQ that vehicles can have their cover save taken away.

145PTS for 5 with a Melta and Multi Melta, a pretty accurate DS and an Invun to keep you alive against any pesky Intercepting Riptides.

Thinking this may be fun for Salamanders;

Vulkan
2x10 Tacs with Melta/Combi Melta
9 Tacs with Melta/Combi Melta
2x5 Scouts with Snipers
3 Preds with Auto/2Las
Defense Line with Comm Relay
3x5 Legion with Melta/Multi Melta
2 Attack Bikes with Multi Meltas

1750

It does make me laugh that White Scars just put Ravenwing on the shelf [mainly because I dislike Dark Angels!], your getting a way cheaper body but with better special rules and an option for grav weps [on the one platform they are decent on, a bike]. Your going to want the Khan to give them all Scout though.

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