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Taking on New Tau, what will work?

Started by Arguleon-veq, April 14, 2013, 12:17:09 AM

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Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Tybalt Defet on April 17, 2013, 05:25:53 AM
Ok, 1, Depending on mission, it starts at 2 VP but can quickly go up if your opponent is clever. Not hard to get more.
2, Firewarriors cannot split fire, unless you were talking about several sqauds which leads me too,
3, Fireblade only effects the squad he joins.
1. 2vp isn't that big a deal, and you are more survivable than most units, as I've pointed out.
2. I know they can't split fire. I was talking about separate units as 10 Fire Warriors isn't going to cost anywhere near as much as 50 Guardsmen so that's not a fair example.
3. I know a Fireblade only affects his squad, hence why it went from 40 shots to 30 per unit.However I still don't believe the abilities should stack. As I've pointed out, models that cheap should not be able to pack 4 S5 shots/turn. No way.
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
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InsaneTD

And most of us actually agree with that last point.

Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Tybalt Defet on April 17, 2013, 10:07:09 AM
And most of us actually agree with that last point.
If that were the case I wouldn't still have to be arguing this. :P
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

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InsaneTD

I did say most. I happen to agree and wouldn't play them that way if I run a fire blade.

Chicop76

Well it does cost close to 220 points for etheral, fire blade and 12 basic fire warriors and for guard it is 230 points for command squad, platoon command squad and 30 guardmen.

Doing rapid fire math from a on marines that would be 48 bs 3 shots ad 4 bs 5 shots. Leaving 28 hits, wounding 19, killing 6 maines or killing 19 models with +5 save.

With guardsmen with orders and combinded squads everyone can fire extra. That's 90 lasguns from the 30 at bs 3, 12 bs 3 from pcs, 14 bs 4 from cs and pcs, and 2 bs 5 from ccs. That's 118 shots for the same number of points and 4x the men. 62 shots will hit, wounding 20 marines and nearly killing 7 marines.

If compared to the guard line they almost do the same to marines, but the guard is putting slightly more wounds on marines. The guard also have more numbers which means they have more sustainability and their fire power won't diminish as fast as the Tau's fire pwer

Also keep in mind the ccs can issue 2 orders and the pcs can issue 1 order. Meaning you can take 7 more models that can issue 9 orders to help dish out out put. While Tau is maxed out with two models.

Tau can have marker lights, while guard have more bodies and can take voxes to be able to dish out more shots.

Against Orcs they are about equally effective, but Tau is killing more. Against sisters they are equally effective, but anything at +5 save is going to get rapped by Tau. Further more Tau is going to hurt T5 models and higher a lot better and can actualy harm t7 and t 8 models while guard can not.

One well placed pie plate that ignores cover and has ap 4 will devistate a Tau squad, Hellhound anybody. That said I think putting your eggs in one basket is not a great ideal.

Also looking at an Etheral is 2 vps, Fireblade 2vps, and fire warriors 1 vp. Guess who I am going to shoot at and kill for 5vps, 6vps if I get firstblood, I included warlord on Fire blade since a 3 vp Etheral is crazy. Thumbing through Dark Angels an Etheral can be possibly 4 vps, so in some cases if all your eggs is in one basket that is a potential of 7 vps. That's a lot of vps that is not that hard to kill. In fact very easy to kill. Realistically that's 5 vps easy, and when vps doesn't matter it is still 3 vps at the least and line breaker on Tau wouldn't be too hard to pull off. While Tau may struggle killing the warlord and line breaker.

I think the etheral is still sound since he can squad hop and doesn't change your synergy. The fireblade the more I think about him he really doesn't bring much to the game with an Etheral. All you doing is making your fire warriors or pathfinders more of a target than they really need to be.

1. You putting high vps in the squads.
2. You have force multipliers in said squads
3. They are the easiest to kill than anything else
4. They are scoring

Etheral and commander is more viable, or even darkstrider. The problem with the fire blade you have to be static and it makes your firewarriors more trgetable. With strider he gives your guys a possible out while stayin manuverable. I personally rather 36 rapid fire shots on marines that wound on 2s. Thinking about it more strider allows you to even wound t 9 models with tau and MCs on 4s.


Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Chicop76 on April 17, 2013, 12:09:37 PM
One well placed pie plate that ignores cover and has ap 4 will devistate a Tau squad, Hellhound anybody. That said I think putting your eggs in one basket is not a great ideal.

Also looking at an Etheral is 2 vps, Fireblade 2vps, and fire warriors 1 vp. Guess who I am going to shoot at and kill for 5vps, 6vps if I get firstblood, I included warlord on Fire blade since a 3 vp Etheral is crazy. Thumbing through Dark Angels an Etheral can be possibly 4 vps, so in some cases if all your eggs is in one basket that is a potential of 7 vps. That's a lot of vps that is not that hard to kill. In fact very easy to kill. Realistically that's 5 vps easy, and when vps doesn't matter it is still 3 vps at the least and line breaker on Tau wouldn't be too hard to pull off. While Tau may struggle killing the warlord and line breaker.

I think the etheral is still sound since he can squad hop and doesn't change your synergy. The fireblade the more I think about him he really doesn't bring much to the game with an Etheral. All you doing is making your fire warriors or pathfinders more of a target than they really need to be.

1. You putting high vps in the squads.
2. You have force multipliers in said squads
3. They are the easiest to kill than anything else
4. They are scoring

Etheral and commander is more viable, or even darkstrider. The problem with the fire blade you have to be static and it makes your firewarriors more trgetable. With strider he gives your guys a possible out while stayin manuverable. I personally rather 36 rapid fire shots on marines that wound on 2s. Thinking about it more strider allows you to even wound t 9 models with tau and MCs on 4s.
A pie plate that ignores cover is going to shaft most units, but there's more AP5 ignore cover blasts than there are AP4. Like I said, Tau have more than average survivability.

The thing is, ok, it's 2 victory points if you take out the Firewarriors and Fireblade/Ethereal. However it's not that easy to take them out.

Throw in the improved AP of the Pulse weapons and anything with a 5+ or 6+ save is going to be MUCH worse off against Tau than they would be against Guard. Throw in markerlights to remove cover (an improvement on the Guard's ability to force rerolls) and BS boosts and the Tau have a much better time of it.
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May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

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The Man They Call Jayne

Actually if its the ethereal that dies, and it is your Warlord it is 3 victory points, if the game uses them. If VPs are in play, the Ethereal is 1 VP for being an IC, 1 VP for being your Warlord and a further VP for being an Ethereal. It can be a blow to lose one when he is worth as much as a Primary Objective.

But still, having considered it in depth, if you want the best thing to screw over Tau, use other Tau. They are perfectly made to kill themselves. We get great coversaves, totally removed by markers, We can get an AP4 Large Blast to remove whole squads of Firewarriors. AP3 Large Blasts to kill off Crisis Suits with Instant Death, and even an AP2 Large Blast for Broadsides. We can gun down fliers like they werent even there from the other side of the table And out basic guns with all these shots will eat through everything eventually anyway.
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Pottsey

#37
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 17, 2013, 09:25:35 AM
Quote from: Tybalt Defet on April 17, 2013, 05:25:53 AM
Ok, 1, Depending on mission, it starts at 2 VP but can quickly go up if your opponent is clever. Not hard to get more.
2, Firewarriors cannot split fire, unless you were talking about several sqauds which leads me too,
3, Fireblade only effects the squad he joins.
1. 2vp isn't that big a deal, and you are more survivable than most units, as I've pointed out.
2. I know they can't split fire. I was talking about separate units as 10 Fire Warriors isn't going to cost anywhere near as much as 50 Guardsmen so that's not a fair example.
3. I know a Fireblade only affects his squad, hence why it went from 40 shots to 30 per unit.However I still don't believe the abilities should stack. As I've pointed out, models that cheap should not be able to pack 4 S5 shots/turn. No way.
I still do not get how you are arguing they are that cheap when 48shots from that one squad costs more than 48shots from normal fire warriors. The abilities need to stack just to be semi useful as we are already paying for what is effectively zero benefit and you want to make the ability weaker?

All you are doing is paying more than the price of two troops squads, having the same firepower as two troops squads but having half as many modules, half as many wounds and being worth extra VP. How is that cheap or overpowered? Or another way to look at it, those two HQ cost more then the price of an entire troop squad and have around the same fire power as an entire troop squad only with extra disadvantages.

I would go as far as to say with the extra cost, next to zero benefit and extra disadvantages it is not worth stacking those two ability's as overall that build hurts our army. If anything the two abilities are underpowered for the cost. As far as I can see you are pretty much always better off spending those points on an extra firewarrior squad.

Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Pottsey on April 17, 2013, 03:30:46 PM
I still do not get how you are arguing they are that cheap when 48shots from that one squad costs more than 48shots from normal fire warriors. The abilities need to stack just to be semi useful as we are already paying for what is effectively zero benefit and you want to make the ability weaker?

All you are doing is paying more than the price of two troops squads, having the same firepower as two troops squads but having half as many modules, half as many wounds and being worth extra VP. How is that cheap or overpowered? Or another way to look at it, those two HQ cost more then the price of an entire troop squad and have around the same fire power as an entire troop squad only with extra disadvantages.

I would go as far as to say with the extra cost, next to zero benefit and extra disadvantages it is not worth stacking those two ability's as overall that build hurts our army. If anything the two abilities are underpowered for the cost. As far as I can see you are pretty much always better off spending those points on an extra firewarrior squad.
It's cheap because it is quite easy, even in an 1850 or 2000pt game, to max out your troop choices and fit in a Fireblade and Ethereal, so you're not choosing this ability over more Firewarriors, rather you're combining this ability with lots of Firewarriors. In fact, you can take 60 Firewarriors, an Ethereal and a Fireblade for approximately 700pts, leaving a sizeable portion of your army for anti-tank weapons and upgrades. I realise that the 4 shots/model will only apply to one unit, but that is still a significant boost for very little cost and, to my knowledge, you can't get 10 S5 shots for a Commander, without adding on the cost of Drones etc. Hell, drop one of those Firewarrior units and add some Kroot you can hide in a forest if you like, not as if you're likely to be short on points, and the Ethereal's ability applies to Kroot with Pulse rounds.

An extra 10 S5 shots is far from "next to zero benefit" and to claim that these abilities are "underpowered" while trying to argue that they stack is nothing short of ludicrous.
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May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

[img]http

BlackPowderChocobo

In mid size games it could be viable, but I'd rather stick the Ethereal in a Sniper Team for 3 Rapid Fire sniper shots at up to 30" and Darkstrider in with Rail Rifle/Ion Rifle Pathfinders to insta-gib now T3 infantry. 

Only way I'd use a Fireblade is in a static 12 man FW team that's flanked by 2 smaller FW teams; the side teams provide a screening buffer to the otherwise long range FW team and the teams stay within 6" of each other for heavy support fire damage. 

And as far as the Drop Pod Assault idea, my counter would be Broadsides with the Early Warning Detection system for Interceptor.  I've used it against a Blood Angels player that likes to have a dreadnoughts drop pod in and wrecked it before it even got a shot off at my then vulnerable Hammerhead (which didn't move yet so no cover save outside of DP). 
I'm sorry Tony the Yodelling Shetland Pony can't sing tonight.  He's a little hoarse.

Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: BlackPowderChocobo on April 17, 2013, 04:11:21 PM
In mid size games it could be viable, but I'd rather stick the Ethereal in a Sniper Team for 3 Rapid Fire sniper shots at up to 30" and Darkstrider in with Rail Rifle/Ion Rifle Pathfinders to insta-gib now T3 infantry. 
The Ethereal affects all Pulse weapons within 12" of him.you can stick him in a Sniper Team and do that while still gaining the benefit for your Firewarriors too.

Darkstrider I really don't like, I have to be honest. I never liked the introduction of Rad anyway, then they made it worse by making it ranged and now they seem to be making it almost standard issue for every bloody army. Well, every good guy army at least. And the whole "I get to run away before you charge me" thing is annoying as hell. Combat is hard enough to reach against most armies now, never mind a new, powerful codex. Making it even harder just smacks of a two-finger salute to armies like Tyranids, Orks and Dark Eldar.
Mkoll's Awesome Card Counter: +8

May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

[img]http

The Man They Call Jayne

My Broadsides are going to be dedicated AA in a tourny I am playing in soon. It would be nice if Interceptor passed on to the Unit as a whole, but alas, it does not. So Velocity Trackers all round it is.

Now, do Missile Drones attached to Broadsides with Skyfire benefit from it as well?
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BlackPowderChocobo

Don't think so Jayne; Skyfire specifically calls out the model having the ability (not unit) and the Velocity Tracker also calls out the specific model again.  So no sharing the Skyfire love to the drones (which sucks a touch more given the fact that Missile Drones are only available to them). 

I'm sorry Tony the Yodelling Shetland Pony can't sing tonight.  He's a little hoarse.

BlackPowderChocobo

@Mkoll Interesting, I thought that was just the Leadership.  Rereading the ability, you are correcet that it does affect all nearby units.  That makes me want to field 2 Ethereals and spread them out to create a huge wall of pulse death :P
I'm sorry Tony the Yodelling Shetland Pony can't sing tonight.  He's a little hoarse.

The Man They Call Jayne

Frankly, for the points, anyone who wants an Ethereal and DOESN'T take Aun'Va is not fully compos mentis. 2 Invocations, Immune to AP1 weapons, and ALMOST Immune to AP2 and 3 plus army wide Leadership stat related buffs? Why wouldnt you?
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