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Author Topic: 51 man guard squad is it still viable?  (Read 9235 times)

Offline Arguleon-veq

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Re: 51 man guard squad is it still viable?
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2012, 04:20:08 pm »
Its not really that effective, even with 5 flamers and all of those las shots you only kill 3 marines with overwatch. Then the Marines win combat and if the Sarg or Asp Champ etc got that precision strike in on the Commissar you are probably going to lose the entire unit in a single turn when they are broke and ran down.
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Offline Chicop76

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Re: 51 man guard squad is it still viable?
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2012, 06:07:59 pm »
I still don't think you are getting how a challlenge works so I'm going to break it down and assume the theoretical guard player knows what he is doing;

Thirster charges in,
Thirster issues a challenge,
Guard player declines,
You get to choose 1 character from the whole unit, he now can't fight,
No challenge happens.
Thirster makes his attacks,
Guardsmen and all other characters get to strike at Thirster if in range.

Despite that, the 'blob' squad isn't as good as it was. Cover is worse for them, which is an issue. Sure its nice that they can move around whilst keeping a heavy wep stationary and still fire it and lasguns got a little better but that commissar is so easy to kill now. Remember your characters have precision strike, in shooting and in combat so any 6 to hit will be on the commissar. Plus they have to remove closest models so if you are mobile just charge in as close as you can to him. I think the squad now needs multiple commissars to be viable and even then its not as good as it was.

I can't look now, but when I read the decline part is said you can't challenge the person who can't attack, but you will be able to challenge another character if able.

So if there is just one character that would be true. If there is 2 or more you would strike a character. When I get back on the 25th I will quote from it.

The Bloodthirster challenges the guardsmen unit, the Guard player then selects 1 character who is within combat range of the Bloodthirster if he wishes to accept the challenge. If the Guard player declines then the Chaos player selects one guard character who could have accepted, that character can strike no blows in this combat phase.

Makes sense. Problem with the 6 to hit strikes the characters can roll. 4+ to avoid it. A palladin can benefit from that while a Thirster can't.

So if your opponent can't decline if he has one character. If he has two you can declare one that canskt do anything while you have to fight as normal.

 

Offline Masked Thespian

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Re: 51 man guard squad is it still viable?
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2012, 06:42:47 pm »
So if your opponent can't decline if he has one character.

IN.  RANGE.  Sorry, but I've got to spell it out to you since you don't seem to be acknowledging it.  Melee combats in 6th edition are going to be more spread out.  Gone are the days of a 6" assault and a 6" pile in from the other side.  If a unit has a large enough footprint then the 3" pile in moves every turn are not going to get that Commissar into range any time soon and you have to bear in mind that until you can get your claws on him you are going to be stuck in there, potentially getting whittled down.

If you can attack from more than one side then you've got a much better chance of getting to him.  Even with Precision Strikes, the target has to be in range so you can't even get him with a lucky 6 if he's on the other side of the squad.

Sending a single model into a blob squad just seems like an utter waste of points.  You've got to coordinate your attack.
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Offline Chicop76

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Re: 51 man guard squad is it still viable?
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 10:04:19 pm »
So if your opponent can't decline if he has one character.

IN.  RANGE.  Sorry, but I've got to spell it out to you since you don't seem to be acknowledging it.  Melee combats in 6th edition are going to be more spread out.  Gone are the days of a 6" assault and a 6" pile in from the other side.  If a unit has a large enough footprint then the 3" pile in moves every turn are not going to get that Commissar into range any time soon and you have to bear in mind that until you can get your claws on him you are going to be stuck in there, potentially getting whittled down.

If you can attack from more than one side then you've got a much better chance of getting to him.  Even with Precision Strikes, the target has to be in range so you can't even get him with a lucky 6 if he's on the other side of the squad.

Sending a single model into a blob squad just seems like an utter waste of points.  You've got to coordinate your attack.

I understand the range part. I am just making sure evrything else is unerstood. If I assault said unit with Thirster, etc. In initiaive order and keep in mind his characters will move 3" first and than the rest of the squad. Thinking about it I think the commissar is 4 so it is possible he can get way with not moving 3 due to the guard models in the way.

The point I'm making is my thirster is going to go first anyway before the unit even moves. In the assault phase the models will move a total of 6" the next time the Thirster swing again. 3" doing initiative and 3 " at the end. If I am able to challenge any of the 6 characters in the charge due t them constantly moving closer I should be able to keep challenging every phse.

At one point I am probably will assault the unit with another. Another thought is keep the Thirster there to tie them up while my screamers turbo boost over the squad and they will take d3 hits per screamer. I just end my 24" move near where to Commissar is so he will be forced to take wounds near my screamers end movement and hopefully wound the commissar.

With that tactic mentioned above I think it will make it much easier to get to the commissar.

 

Offline DEF Knight

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Re: 51 man guard squad is it still viable?
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 11:28:30 pm »
also as a point of interest: the rules for hatred stipulate that "A model striking a hated foe in close combat re-rolls all misses during the first round of each combat - he does not get to make re-rolls for Hatred in subsequent rounds."

that seems to clear up any confusion as far as I'm concerned as to the definition of what a single close combat is. as long as neither side is destroyed or flees it continues indefinitely remaining the same instance of combat. That means that hatred can only be applied once in much the same way that only one challenge can be made, as per the bolded text that says "only one challenge can be issued per close combat." on page 64.

So no, you'll not be having a whole platoon of infantrymen standing around idly for half an hour as one after another sergeants go to commit honourable suicide-by-Bloodthirster. You wont even have an angry Bloodthirster yelling challenges and howling insults all day long as he cuts through guardsmen. One challenge per close combat actually does mean just that.




The other thing to consider, as MT has been continually trying to make clear, is that there is no guarantee that you will ever get to the commissar. Even ignoring the actual pile-in moves there are a lot of bodies that take up real, tangible, physical space. It doesnt matter if a commissar moves 3" or 300" when he piles in if there's already more than 3" deep guardsmen surrounding the Bloodthirster the two will not come into contact. Remember each model's base is about an inch in diameter, even bunched up 50 guardsmen will take up a LOT of space. Will the Thirster be cutting up guardsmen left and right? Yes. Does that guarantee the commissar will ever be within arms reach? No, that doesn't guarantee anything, let alone this being a squad that could be spread about 150" wide all told and still be in coherency for which a handful of 3" pile-ins would mean nothing.


also yes, your opponent can decline if he only has one character. He simply can't decline if the character is completely alone in a one-model squad as it would have no-one to hide behind. The Thirster couldn't decline, but a single sergeant or commissar could as he has a squad to run and hide amongst.

Offline Chicop76

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Re: 51 man guard squad is it still viable?
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2012, 01:32:39 am »
I am aware of how much space a 50 man guard squad can take up. Several people abused the cover system by spreading that large unit out, very anoying. If they wanted too they can easily span across the field touching side to side at 6 feet acro ss. However I was disregardng the what if factor for many reasons.

1. I sometimes play with the Masque for one which I can re arange said squad to set up for assault.
2. May or may not play with csm allies which I can take advantage of lash
3. Played since 3rd edition and seen it before. Meaning when the situation occurs I may or may not try certain tactis. Situations is always different. Like if said commissar is 2 feet away with tanks to his back I may have to kill tanks first to get an attack in the back. Honestly with me having 5 flamers now I could toast the squad much easier than before, cough Masque. Honestly out of 4 games I played in 6th I only used the Thirster once. I just like using Thirster as an example since I am thinking about using him, however I am strongly leaing towards Lord of Change now.
4. If I was playing a regular army than yes the set up is an issue. With daemons I can litterly come from anywhere. Unless you are placing the squad all the way on your table edge than it is an issue for me, but most use that formation to protect their tanks. Also more ofte than not they usually assault my flamers which flamed them or their tanks.
5. Again the distance is an what if factor. Assuming it is only 50 man squad vs bloodthirster. My bloodthirster have more tools now like a 2d6 run out of deepstrike and 24" movement, but I'm talking about all character models using my Thirster as an example cause I play daemons. I want a clear understanding about challenge, because challenge is a big factor rather or not I even bother to field my Thirster at all honestly.

Right now and I wish I brought my book with me here to New Mexico, but I didn't want to be distracted. If I can only issue one challenge than it makes a huge differance. Worth it on a hidden sargent squad, but not worth it in guard squad. Honestly I am hoping to face a 50 man squad so I can try out my new toys. It might justify me running a few chariots here and there.

I like MP cause he is pretty good wit the rules. I like to get full clarity, because it never fails that some rule causes an argument. I like to fully know the rule so I ca point it out. This is one of those rules I seen some arguments over and why I simply try to avoid thesituation anyway.