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6th Edition Tau - Tweaks of the Characters

Started by Narric, January 01, 2013, 02:10:38 PM

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Narric

#15
one thing I'll add. Though I havent updated him yet. I believe that just giving the Tau player PE and Hatred is a terrible design flaw and one I realised looking at the rank-and-file Ethereals so I figured a negative reaction should be had to the Ethereals death. My ideas was that any units off-board coming in on reserve would have a -1 modifier to their reserve rolls (possibly including the usage of the Positional Relay).

I find it weird to say "Lets make a unit that the controlling player WANTS TO DIE" it just doesn't fit right ih my head. When a character of such importance dies, there should be good and bad outcomes and both should be equal in their magnitude to the army.

The Man They Call Jayne

In all honesty, I dont think the Ethereals should EVER be on the battle field. As somebody once put it "It's like the President of the United States going to the frontlines armed with the nameplate from his desk."

They are NOT soldiers, not are they made for battlefield roles.
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Narric

What do you suggest should fill their place? Or maybe Special Characters could be adapted to fill the same role of "Inspirational & Spiritual Leader"

I can't remember off the top of my head, but were Ethereals ever a combat unit in Dawn of War?

The Man They Call Jayne

They were a support unit that allowed souped up Firewarriors to be taken.

Other Crisis/Hazard Commanders should be availiable. Commander Puretide for example is legendary. Battlesuit commanders are practically bred for war and combat and equipped especially for that purpose with the best the Empire can provide.

Taking an Ethereal is like taking a beureucrat who is just going to spend the time getting shot at and calling the men "Jolly good chaps.".
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Railgun Convention

Fashion up a few new commanders from somewhere. We could probably invent a few for you, if you wanted.
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Wargamer

Historically, unwise units being present on the field, or acceptable units behaving stupidly, is often intended to provide a morale boost.

For example, during the Three Kingdoms era one of the commanders supposedly rode into battle with no armour on. The exact reason eludes me, but it was something along the lines of "those archers couldn't hit the broad side of a barn!", and so his men were encouraged by the bravado of their leader.

Ethereals likely work in the same way; their lack of actual combat ability is made up for by the fact that they convince the Tau army victory is assured just by being there! As such, the Ethereal should be boosting the army while alive, but have a penalty for dying (turns out the Orks can hit us from all the way over there).
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Narric

But how can that be achieved without the Penalty for the Ethereal's death actually turning into something Tau players want, such as wat it is currently.

My counter-thought to you wargamer, is that though Orks couldn't hit the broadside of a bullet with a barn, they can still turn your skull to blue paste if you get to close. Charging forward "on your steed of choice" may make your army feel more confident about victory and/or combat, but if your opponent likes a challenge (Orks), they're going to charge at you with equal force/enthusiasm, to what your army has just gained in itself. Overall, there is no difference, and possibly you're more likely to have your army going home in a closed casket.

Quote from: Railgun Convention on January 02, 2013, 10:02:38 PM
Fashion up a few new commanders from somewhere. We could probably invent a few for you, if you wanted.
LEts stick to Current Characters for now. Fan-made characters could probably be a thread unto themselves. I know I have a few ideas, and most of them aren't even for HQ.

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on January 02, 2013, 08:49:47 PM
They were a support unit that allowed souped up Firewarriors to be taken.
Could something similar to IG Vets be made then? You have a squad of Veteran Fire Warriors, and they're Lead by an Ethereal.

[/quote]Other Crisis/Hazard Commanders should be availiable. Commander Puretide for example is legendary.[/quot]The trick for Puretide is that (as far as I know) there is no mention of the wargear he had when he was on active duty. The most mention of him I remember is him as a Trainer of Farsight and Shadowsun.

QuoteBattlesuit commanders are practically bred for war and combat and equipped especially for that purpose with the best the Empire can provide.

Taking an Ethereal is like taking a beureucrat who is just going to spend the time getting shot at and calling the men "Jolly good chaps.".
I like this analogy. Can't really say much more than that :P

Charistoph

A couple thoughts:

1) What if Aun'va provided ATSKNF to all Tau while on the board.  When dead, Morale Checks every turn.  If passed, Hatred and old Rage (Move, Run, Charge towards nearest enemy) comes in to play.  This overrides any other Ethereals Price of Failure.

2) Ethereals really need a Shield Generator, even if it's a 5+, and the Pope can surely fit a normal one in that massive john.
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The Man They Call Jayne

Fluffwise, the death of an Ethereal causes the Tau to advance slowly and relentlessy towards the enemy, unloading ammo in to them until they are dead, or the ammo runs out entirely. Having a rule that forces them to run into CC is against both Tau fluff in general and the result of an ethereal being killed in specific.
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Charistoph

1) This isn't just any Ethereal, though, and the rules were written for melee-only Preferred Enemy.

2) Fluff can be rewritten (sadly)

3) At least it's not an upside to his dying.
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Wargamer

Let's just go for a basic concept and work from there:

"Inspiring Presence:" As long as the Ethereal is alive, all non-vehicle Tau units (excluding Drones) within 12" benefit from the following special rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Stubborn.

"Price of Failure:" If the Ethereal is killed, all non-vehicle Tau units (excluding Drones) within 12"must immediately pass a morale check or fall back.

Aun'va, for now, simply has an army-wide version of these rules.
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Narric

I actually feel comfortable with that.

So with Aun'va and Ethereals taken care of, what about our Codex Characters; Shadowsun and Farsight?

I think everybody jumped into the discussion about Aun'va and Ethereals, so here is what I Op'd with:

Commander Farsight
WS-5 BS-4 S-5 T-4 W-4 I-5 A-4 Ld-10 Sv-3+

Wargear
XV8 Battlesuit, Plasma Rifle, Shield Generator, Target Lock, Bonding Knife
Dawn Blade
Range- Melee Str-User AP-1 Type-Melee, Armourbane, Master-crafted

Special Rules
Independant Character, Night Vison, Very Bulky, Deep Strike, Hammer of Wrath, Hatred (Orks), Relentless
Ork Fighters - In a primary detachment that includes Farsight, all units gain Preferred Enemy (Orks). This includes Farsight himself.
Breakaway Faction - A Primary Detachment that uncludes Farisght may not be allied to any other army. In addition, only Tau units may be selected from Codex: Tau Empire
Blood Brothers - in a Primaryu detachment that includes farsight, and model with access to a Bonding Knife may equpip it for free.

Commander Shadowsun
WS-4 BS-5 S-4 T-4 W-3 I-4 A-4 Ld-10 Sv-3+

Wargear
Dual Fusion Blasters, Command and Control Node, Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drones
XV22 Battlesuit - Confers a 3+ Armour Save. Shadowsun's Strength and Toughness are increased to 4. It also has a built in Stealth Field Generator.
Command and Control Node - All friendly units within 12" may use Shadowsun's unmodified Leadership for any Leadership based checks. If the unit is falling back, it automatically regroups at the start of the next Tau player turn, provided it is within the Control Nodes range. It may then act as normal, with no penalties.
Command-Link Drone - Increases the range of the Command and Control Node by 6". This bonus is removed upon the destruction of the Command-link Drone.
Advanced Targeting System - Shadowsun may use both her Fusion Blasters in the same shooting phase, and may choose two seperate Targets.

Special rules
Independant Character, Night Vision, Bulky, Deep Strike, Relentless, Infiltrate, Jink

Chicop76

I would like to see Aun'Shi from the last codex. He would do really well in a challenge especially if his fire warriors are cheering him on. In a chalenge with 12 fire warriors and something like a single archon he would be unkillable. The Archon would only have roughly 2 attacks to hit him and he will have 2 re rolls on his +4 invulnerable. Killing him at range would be the best option which Tau is supposedto excell at. I still have his model which is nicely painted and would like to use him again. At least in fluff tell us what happen to him. I think he should be included back as a character since he was a founding Tau character along with O'Shova and I think Anglar Proc( which whould be cool to have him back too, although I can't remember if he was a white dwarf or codex character)

O'Shova army I would like the 5 point ws and I upgrade back. Too exepnsive on fire warriors, but was very useful on bodyguard and upgraded character suits. I think the upgrade for me at least would be nice to have again or something similar besides having preferred enemy orcs. O'Shova troops are supposedly more close combat orientated. I get the Orc thing, but feel it would be a generalized stat change like the orignial book version was.

The Dawn blade I always felt it should provide somethin like armourbane. His only weapon besides that is a plasma and besides that he lacks anti-vehicle which makes him less appealing.

I think he should go back to having bs 5 since he is still Tau and I doubt his plasma skills have gotten worst. I would like him to be WS 6 though. His fluff I think would support the 6. I think 4 is typically almost average, 5 is like typical sargents, and 6 is your heroes and higher. Without looking 4 is the norm for a tau Shas'O and from the older book they could be 5 on par with O'Shova. I could be wrong since I am not looking at my books at the moment. O'Shova is the exception and I think he should surpass any other Tau's WS which Aun'shi had a 5 I think.

Another thought into O'Shova is that I think his personal body guard at least should have better melee stats. Not ranging into 7 which I thought was silly. His personal guard may or should have access to close combat weapons( not power).

Also ap 1 seems a bit much for the Dawn Blade. I would go with a 2 which seems fair. A one is simply vehicle destruction. Bad enough you have ranged weapons that's ap1 and now a suit commander with the same level or more destructive power than a rail gun.

I think he should have 5 attacks or have the O's lowered to 3. Since FW have toughness 5 suits I think he should be toughness 5. Although he has left the empire and doesn't have acess to the. Ithink t 5, eternal warrior, or a +3 invulnerable would be good options for him to have. One of the 3 would make him more durable and a more capable close combat unit while at the same time not as powerful as an Archon.

Why should he get Hammer of Wraith??? His suit type doesn't provide it and what makes him spcial enough to get it.

The other two characters I wish they do to them what they did to Aun'Shi if you want my opinion about them.


Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Chicop76 on January 03, 2013, 08:24:50 PM
I would like to see Aun'Shi from the last codex. He would do really well in a challenge especially if his fire warriors are cheering him on. In a chalenge with 12 fire warriors and something like a single archon he would be unkillable. The Archon would only have roughly 2 attacks to hit him and he will have 2 re rolls on his +4 invulnerable. Killing him at range would be the best option which Tau is supposedto excell at. I still have his model which is nicely painted and would like to use him again. At least in fluff tell us what happen to him. I think he should be included back as a character since he was a founding Tau character along with O'Shova and I think Anglar Proc( which whould be cool to have him back too, although I can't remember if he was a white dwarf or codex character)
Why on earth would an Archon only have 2 attacks???They start with 4, and are weapon skill 7 so he'd have more than 2 hits too.

Quote from: Chicop76 on January 03, 2013, 08:24:50 PM
O'Shova army I would like the 5 point ws and I upgrade back. Too exepnsive on fire warriors, but was very useful on bodyguard and upgraded character suits. I think the upgrade for me at least would be nice to have again or something similar besides having preferred enemy orcs. O'Shova troops are supposedly more close combat orientated. I get the Orc thing, but feel it would be a generalized stat change like the orignial book version was.

The Dawn blade I always felt it should provide somethin like armourbane. His only weapon besides that is a plasma and besides that he lacks anti-vehicle which makes him less appealing.

I think he should go back to having bs 5 since he is still Tau and I doubt his plasma skills have gotten worst. I would like him to be WS 6 though. His fluff I think would support the 6. I think 4 is typically almost average, 5 is like typical sargents, and 6 is your heroes and higher. Without looking 4 is the norm for a tau Shas'O and from the older book they could be 5 on par with O'Shova. I could be wrong since I am not looking at my books at the moment. O'Shova is the exception and I think he should surpass any other Tau's WS which Aun'shi had a 5 I think.

Another thought into O'Shova is that I think his personal body guard at least should have better melee stats. Not ranging into 7 which I thought was silly. His personal guard may or should have access to close combat weapons( not power).
I disagree, the whole point of the Tau is that they don't do combat. If they can suddenly purchase high WS suits because of Farsight they lose the main weakness of the codex. You want combat potential? Allies are there for that. If Farsight stops you taking allies, make up for it with your shooting. Access to combat weapons, fair enough, but boosted stats shouldn't come into it.

Also, as I posted initially, I agree that the Dawn Blade should be AP2 if it's getting an AP value.

The other thing to consider here is are the points costs for these guys changing at all? It's all well and good us coming up with rules and ideas left right and centre, but it we don't know what kind of points we're looking at it's all a bit pointless really.
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Chicop76

Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 03, 2013, 08:46:52 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 03, 2013, 08:24:50 PM
I would like to see Aun'Shi from the last codex. He would do really well in a challenge especially if his fire warriors are cheering him on. In a chalenge with 12 fire warriors and something like a single archon he would be unkillable. The Archon would only have roughly 2 attacks to hit him and he will have 2 re rolls on his +4 invulnerable. Killing him at range would be the best option which Tau is supposedto excell at. I still have his model which is nicely painted and would like to use him again. At least in fluff tell us what happen to him. I think he should be included back as a character since he was a founding Tau character along with O'Shova and I think Anglar Proc( which whould be cool to have him back too, although I can't remember if he was a white dwarf or codex character)
Why on earth would an Archon only have 2 attacks???They start with 4, and are weapon skill 7 so he'd have more than 2 hits too.

Quote from: Chicop76 on January 03, 2013, 08:24:50 PM
O'Shova army I would like the 5 point ws and I upgrade back. Too exepnsive on fire warriors, but was very useful on bodyguard and upgraded character suits. I think the upgrade for me at least would be nice to have again or something similar besides having preferred enemy orcs. O'Shova troops are supposedly more close combat orientated. I get the Orc thing, but feel it would be a generalized stat change like the orignial book version was.

The Dawn blade I always felt it should provide somethin like armourbane. His only weapon besides that is a plasma and besides that he lacks anti-vehicle which makes him less appealing.

I think he should go back to having bs 5 since he is still Tau and I doubt his plasma skills have gotten worst. I would like him to be WS 6 though. His fluff I think would support the 6. I think 4 is typically almost average, 5 is like typical sargents, and 6 is your heroes and higher. Without looking 4 is the norm for a tau Shas'O and from the older book they could be 5 on par with O'Shova. I could be wrong since I am not looking at my books at the moment. O'Shova is the exception and I think he should surpass any other Tau's WS which Aun'shi had a 5 I think.

Another thought into O'Shova is that I think his personal body guard at least should have better melee stats. Not ranging into 7 which I thought was silly. His personal guard may or should have access to close combat weapons( not power).
I disagree, the whole point of the Tau is that they don't do combat. If they can suddenly purchase high WS suits because of Farsight they lose the main weakness of the codex. You want combat potential? Allies are there for that. If Farsight stops you taking allies, make up for it with your shooting. Access to combat weapons, fair enough, but boosted stats shouldn't come into it.

Also, as I posted initially, I agree that the Dawn Blade should be AP2 if it's getting an AP value.

The other thing to consider here is are the points costs for these guys changing at all? It's all well and good us coming up with rules and ideas left right and centre, but it we don't know what kind of points we're looking at it's all a bit pointless really.

Aun'shi had the power to parry attacks. If he forfeit on of his attacks it will deny an attacking unit 1 attack at minimum of one. Aun'Shi has 4 attacks from what I remembered and to start getting your extra attacks to hit him beyond only having one attack you would need at least 6 attacks. In 3rd I had locked Necrons, Dark Eldar, Marines, etc in close combat this way. Instead of units like daemonettes having 40 attacks on the charge they would have 10. Due to between 4th to now 6th I think it will only happen to those in base contact with him now. This was when pitch in attacks was only one attack and no weapon bonouses If an Achon challenged him he woul have one attack and two attacks on the charge. That is where I get the two attacks from.

Well yes Tau suck in combat. Tzeentch is second in that line up followed not really by guard. I am talking about O'Shova Tau however which in 3rd and 4th fluff they are supposed to be able to fight in melee combat which O'Shova's forces excells in. The ws bonus was from 3rd edition not something I am adding to them. I think O'Shova Tau should reflect the better hand to hand prowless more in stats, by paying more for them. Instread of getting preferred enemy Orcs.

O'Shova stats alone is better than most marines and he can take on marine hq choices no problem and be the victor. Hell I WS 2 isn't really bad unless you're going against 5 or higher. WS 3 makes a differance against that 5 and 6 ws until that 7 comes around the corner. Jumping to I 3 still won't help them, but that extra ws does make a huge differance. For normal Tau I say no, but for O'Shova Tau I think it fits. Bile can do it to Chaos Marines and it was an old rule. I liked it far better that preferred enemy Orcs