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Does the Conceal power stack? and does it have any effect on invul saves?

Started by Stewie Griffin, June 06, 2012, 11:19:30 AM

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Stewie Griffin

As title - basically I'm building a seer council list for fun games (and maybe the odd Gw game) and I'm wondering what stuff to give the warlocks.

The 2 Farseers have Doom and Guide respectively, and I wasn't really thinking of using this unit up close and personal, due to the fact that i think it'd get torn up in CC pretty easily, so ranged survivability is key.

So bascially what i was wondering was that if i buy conceal on multiple warlocks (say 3) and then get all 3 of them to use it, does the cover stack? So say it'd go from a 5+ to a 3/2+? And in either case of stack or no stack, would the seers get their 4+ invul with it.

Another question actually, do they always get their 4+ invul? It's just my current understanding of invuls is that you get them if the shot goes through armour, the seers dont have an armour save and only an invul, so surely they'd always get that 4+ save?

And finally, what would you suggest taking with the seer council power wise and how should it be used? I'm a bit of a noob eldar player, only ever testing like a 500pt list so yeah, that's where I'm at :)

EDIT: Another quick question - say I did kit out the seer council for CC, would this be a viable build for such a unit?

Doomseer

Destructorlock

Enhancelock

Emboldenlock

If we consider that if we roll out the psychic powers before assaulting, then the unit to be assaulted gets doomed for a re-roll to wound (which with the witch-blades should mean a near 100% wound rate), gets destructored, which is in effect a heavy flamer before-hand, the seers themselves get enhanced, and so have +1 WS and I for WS6 & I6 on the Farseer, and WS & I 5 on the Warlocks, and embolden making it less likely they'll run away, AND the +1 attack for charging in (and maybe +1 for using their shuriken pistols as an additional hand weapon) - does that sound like a half-decent close combat unit for finishing off enemy troops?

Thanks. :)

Unholy Harbinger

An invulnerable is taken INSTEAD of an armour save. You can't use both. If you fail armour then lose a wound. You have to take your best available save so if you have 2+ armour and 5+ invun you have to take the armour, however if the armour save would be ignored/negated by the attacker you must then take an invun save.

As seers have no armour your invulnerable save is always your best one so would be taken (unless you're in some nice cover).


Stewie Griffin

Thanks for that :) - so is conceal a pretty useless power to put on a seer council warlock if it cant be stacked and if they're always getting a 4+ save anyway?

Also, what do you think about my idea for a CC orientated seer council? I myself am unsure on it really, as I've just realised that while the witch-blades wound on 2+ they dont ignore armour, so if for e.g. I charged a unit of 5 assault marines/tactical marines, I could get all those attacks, wound X amount, at which point the marines could laugh it off with a 3+ save and promptly beat the crap out of the plucky little space elves who thought they could turn their hands to close combat... and 185pts goes down the drain.

Saulus

With seer councils you've gotta go big or go home. They are probably near the scariest units going if they are all working together. I'll also say that a seer council is much better in cc for its points than shooting!

Let's start with our  Seer (add Eldrad if you like breaking the game) with doom and fortune. Doom really isn't required, as you are already at 2s, but fortune makes a big difference. This turns you from 2/3 saves to 90% saves on your 3++ for Eldrad, and adds 25% save rate to the remaining council. Recall that a fortuned 4+ if statistically better than power armour.

Embolden Warlock: With fortune and staying put being so important its nice to have that re roll around, and for such a small points cost it really does a lot of good.

An enhance warlock: He damn near ensures that you are going to be striking first, or at least simultaneously (force Halberds aside). PLus the ability to hit better than a standard MeQ goes a long way.

Conceal warlocks are only useful in very SPECIFIC cases that are so rare it doesn't matter. A shield-breaker shot from a Vindicare takes away rune armour save, leaving conceal cover save..... If you fear them that bad, you are bad for fearing them.

Destructor Warlocks: sometimes people like toting some heavy flamers around. Generally these people also have the incredibly tough and expensive seer council on bikes.

An Autarch: If MeQ's have you worried and you want to have a really narsty deathstar unit throw in an Autarch with power weapon, mandiblaster and pistol. This guy with Enhance against doomed enemies and fortune will chew Marines very well.

For example though Lets just have a 'standard' seer council

Farseer: Doom, Fortune, Runes, Spirit Stones = 140 (I think, cheapen this guy up A LOT by only taking fortune even!)
Warlock with Enhance:                                =35
Warlock with Embolden:                              =30
Warlock: stock                                           =25
Warlock: Spear (for wound allocation purposes)=28
           Total: 258

That's 'near' the cost of a somewhat nasty assault squad, but their power weapon and special weapons will be for nought given that you hopefully get the charge due to using transports (which of course are not included in the price, can use Falcon or Wave Serpent here).

You're looking at 3 attacks each initially, and at Initiative 5 and 6 on seer thanks for the Enhance, and at WS 5 as well. Of your 15 attacks, 10 hit, 8.3 wounds (9.7 with doom) and 2.7 down (3.2 with doom) without considering shuriken shots. The assault squad gets their 15 back (sarge probably alive) hitting half for 7.5 and wounding 5, and your saves at 75% means you lose 1.25 wounds.

So against marines, you aren't really powerful perhaps, but instead Face a Trygon Carnifex Daemon prince or greater daemon that rely on their toughness not saves, and who do not have as many attacks your seer council will easily out do them. And let's not even talk about taking our tanks, that S9 on rear armour added with that invulnerable save for survivability you should be golden. I've seen my friends council tear 3 Leman Russ apart (bad time for vehicle squads) and then handily survive the ensuing basilisk barrage.

Overall, you're regular marines, leave em for Banshees or Scorpions. Big baddies or vehicles your council can take out with little problem. Put them on BIKES, with the 3+ and fortune and now we've got something that is damn near immune to combined arms (something that does hurt seer councils). But now we're talking about a unit that costs A TON of points and can be difficult to support with your list. 
No fear. No mercy. No matter what.

Stewie Griffin

Thank you for that Saulus, that's an extremely good analysis I must say, bar one mistake in the standard seer council part - your stock warlock is illegal, you must take at least 1 power ;)

But yeah that post has certainly given me a new and interesting insight on how to run the Seer Council - when I was actually thinking about what to use them against the stuff I was thiniking of was basically weakened units, small units, and the occassional squishy unit (like Guardsmen) too, however I hadn't thought of MCs and tanks, and so that makes it very very interesting... (although I think stuff like Greater Demons are probably a no-no even for the seer council haha) - but Demon princes, carnifexes and so on they might just be able to manage if the dice gods are on my side (and if I doom said unit and fortune my own then I might well be able to get the job done).

I'm currently having a go at making a 750-1000pt list built around a seer council at the moment :) - I'm not gonna jet-bike them, because frankly I prefer the models on foot and methods of conversion/stuff like the Chapterhouse studios models I just dont like, so it's gonna have to be either a wave-serpent or falcon I'm afraid... unless of course I can find a way to convert jetbikes (or equivalents) without having to chop up the farseer and warlock models at all...

The current set-up I'm thinking of for the Council is as follows:-

Farseer - Doom, Fortune, Spirit Stones

Destructorlock

Destructorlock

Enhancelock

Emboldenlock

maaaybe... another destructrlock, dunno whether to go for 5 or 6...

Mounted in either a wave serpent or a falcon, or on jetbikes if I can find a way of converting the current models, but my preference is for a tank transport.

Speaking of which, can they use their powers from within their transport tank? Say for e.g. can the Farseer Fortune the tank whilst he's inside of it? And if so what effect would it have?

Thanks :)

Tom

Quote from: Stewie Griffin on June 06, 2012, 08:22:55 PM
Speaking of which, can they use their powers from within their transport tank? Say for e.g. can the Farseer Fortune the tank whilst he's inside of it? And if so what effect would it have?

Farseers can use psychic powers whilst inside a vehicle as long as they don't need line of sight. So Fortune, Doom and Guide work and you measure from the tank's hull so that extends their range quite a bit too considering the shape of Eldar tanks.

Fortune allows a unit to reroll any failed saves until the start of the next Eldar turn. That's simple to apply to a tank and is of course only helpful if your tank will get a save - moving flat out or being an obscured target are examples.

Warlock psychic powers aren't much help in a vehicle with the exception of embolden which will allow to Farseer to reroll failed psychic tests as per the FAQ (v1.1 p.2)

Saulus

Right, stock warlocks not legal. Might as well have a H. flamer one then.

And about vehicle usage, the only thing a farseer cannot do is cast into a vehicle (cannot fortune an allied squad inside a vehicle, doom an enemy squad inside theirs). You could however fortune another vehicle from within your own etc.

A fortuned Falcon that went flat out with holofields is my favourite way of demonstrating statistical durability to my opponents. :)
No fear. No mercy. No matter what.