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Warhounds[SW] vs Daemons 1850

Started by Arguleon-veq, January 01, 2013, 10:29:54 PM

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Arguleon-veq

So I had another tough game today against a friend who is still trying to settle on a list for this edition. I was 50 points down last game as I didnt know what to spend my last points on so for this game I've just thrown in an extra special weapon team:

Rune Priest: Chooser
Rune Priest: Lvl2
10 Hunters: 2 Melta, Banner, Pod
10 Hunters: 2 Melta, Banner, Pod
5 Long Fangs: 4 Missiles
5 Long Fangs: 4 Missiles

Primaris:
Platoon Command:
50 Guard: 5 Power Axes, 3 Flamers, 3 Autocannons.
Special Weapon Team: 3 Flamers
Special Weapon Team: 3 Flamers
2x Vendetta: +HB's
Manticore:

This is what I was to face:

Khorne Herald: Chariot
Khorne Herald: Chariot
10 Plague Bearers:
10 Plague Bearers:
10 Plague Bearers:
9 Plague Bearers:
9 Screamers:
9 Screamers:
9 Screamers:
9 Flamers:
9 Flamers:


His reasoning for the list was that with so much durable scoring he shouldnt have to worry about flyers as they would simply be too much to shift once his agressive units had dealt with most of the opposing ground forces. He opted to go without Kairos as he simply doesnt last long enough anymore and we both think its better to just go for the extra bodies instead.

Mission: 6 Objectives
Deployment: Length Ways

Powers: I got utterly rubbish ones on my Primaris that I never bothered to use, my Lvl2 got presience and the one that makes an enemy unit re roll misses. My other Priest too Jaws and Lightning.

Deployment: I was pretty annoyed at the length ways set up as 3 objectives were on his end of the table, 2 in mine and 1 near the middle. The length meant that I would struggle to bring my massed bolter and lasguns into play against his plaguebearers once they were on his objectives If i wanted to hold my own. With this in mind I deployed my horde in a big piece of area terrain as I worked out that taking the charge from 9 screamers, if I am in cover, I actually wipe them out for the loss of only a few men. My fangs and manticore deployed around them to try and make it hard for him to deep strike on top of me or slash over my lines with the screamers.

X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

Arguleon-veq

Turn 1:

I won the roll and opted to go second. He rolled for his waves and didnt get the one he wanted. So in dropped 10 plaguebearers, mid table on an objective alongside his chariot which was also his warlord. He also got in a unit of screamers which he then boosted down one side of my force. He opted for a glory shot with his flamers and put them right in a gap in my line so that he could take out the manticore and platoon command in one go. Any scatter would see them mishap, he did and rolled a 2 so I placed them on the other side of the table. His second unit of plaguebearers dropped on another objective backfield near the flamers.

In my turn my horde moved across the table slightly to get their lasguns in range of those screamers, my first drop pod dropped between the screamers and the bearers + chariot so that they could lend their firepower where needed. I was re rolling my misses and making the screamers re roll saves, once my lasguns had been discharged with first rank fire, second rank fire only a couple of screamers remained who I finished with rapid firing bolters. I then put 8 rockets into the chariot but could only do 3 wounds. My manticore got two shots away on the plaguebearers and both his. As they cant run on the turn they land to spread out due to slow and purposeful I was getting all 10 under the template, a double hit meant 20 hits. I got about 16 wounds. Normally a 5+ Inv with 5+ FnP would keep at least some alive but thanks to the S10 of the manticore I was ignoring FnP and so I destroyed the whole unit. A great start.

Turn 2:

He got in this turn another screamer unit, another flamer unit and another plaguebearer unit. The plaguebearers dropped safely out of the way again in his backfield. The screamers dropped and boosted over my grey hunters trying to slash enough to death to let his chariot get past my overwatch.

The second unit of flamers again wanted a glory shot, especially after what my manticore did last turn. Again a scatter resulted in them being placed in the backfield.

His slash attack failed to do any damage on my hunters after some bad rolls but his chariot tried to get in anyway. I took his last wound with my overwatch.

I fail both my reserve rolls, for my vendettas and my drop pod. I fail to get off my power to make his screamers re roll saves and as a result once my firepower is over there are still 2 flamers left alive. My manticore kills a couple of the more central plaguebearers.

Turn 3:

He got his other chariot in and his last screamers. He boosted his screamers along a long table edge, wanting to stay out of range of my hordes lasguns. His chariot dropped in support his troops. Both flamer units now start to push forward together. His last two screamers charged by long fangs, I killed a wounded one with my overwatch, the survivor fluffed its attacks and I killed it with my return attacks.

Knowing I would struggle to down those screamers without making them re roll saves or getting 72 re rolled lasgun shots on them when I made both my reserve rolls, the screamers were the focus. I dropped my second pod on top of them and aimed my vendettas at them too. I prescienced a long fang unit and opted for frags and put a few wounds on the screamers. The second fang unit does the same and gets a few more wounds. Living lightning and the autocannons do a few more and then I really think the unit with 32 bolt rounds and 4 meltas. I then finish the last few with the vendettas. The manticore only gets 1 shot off again and kills 2 plaguebearers.

Turn 4:

His flamers really push up on my with a move and a run and both units are so far unscathed and he is sitting pretty on 3 objectives each held by a lot of plaguebearers with me only having 1 more chance to fire with the manticore.

This turn everything goes at his flamers, I put an unholy number of wounds on them although he denies the witch when I try to make him re roll saves. Despite doing enough wounds to blow away both units he passes a silly number of saves and when the dust clears there is 1 left in one unit and 5 in another. Thankfully I had dropped one hunter squad back towards an objective. My last manticore shot again only fires once and takes the central plaguebearers down to 5 models.

Turn 5:

His flamers jump towards my most advanced grey hunters and burn down all but 3. He then charges and takes me down to 1 guy, annoyingly I hold so I cant shoot the flamers in my turn, a problem if the game goes long.

I am currently holding 2 objectives, he has 3. So I drop my vendettas into hover mode and drop out a special weapon team to contest the central objective. I finish off the lone flamer and then also wipe out those central bearers leaving that objective in the hands of my special weapon team. His flamers finish my last hunter.

I am leading 11-6. We roll, the game goes on.

Turn 6:

Those flamers are now free to wreck my lines and they jump over my pods and promptly burn down another full grey hunter squad. To make matters worse his chariot gets a long charge off on my special weapon team and although he takes 2 wounds to my flamers he wipes them out.

I get everything as far forward as possible with my platoon command holding an objective but they are safely out of flamer range if the game goes into turn 7. My other special weapon team jumps out to reclaim the central objective and I unleash my firepower on 6 plaguebearers holding an objective and I blow them away which should win me the game. I then finish off the khorne chariot with my missiles.

We roll, the game goes on.

Turn 7:

His flamers go for a long charge on my special weapon team but cant make it. I then get revenge on them for doing terrible damage to my army and wipe them out. Leaving him with 10 plaguebearers left holding an objective. I have 2, first blood and warlord.

Result: 8-3 Win

Post Game Thoughts:

Well it was all going well until those flamers just walked through my fire, 5 killed 20 marines on their own, I hadnt lost a model up to that point. Despite me causing so much damage early on I was concerned about getting rid of all those plaguebearers but the manticore was invaluable. My opponent said he was trying to draw my fire with his dangerous screamers so that he could hold 3 objectives to my 3 so that I couldnt focus fire on his plaguebearers and then to try and burn me off 1 with flamers for a 9-8 win. The flamers almost did it too.
X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

Chicop76

Well. Sounds like a good game.

I am curious that you think weaver is easier to kill. I haven't lost him yet this edition. Coming in using swoop mode you need 6s and he has a 3+ re rollable save. Sure he could be grounded, but you need to fail a 3+. The amount of fire power I seen poured into this guy is incredible. Anti Air may have an easier time knocking him down, but they still need to get him to fail that 3+. Even in my old games he makes up for his points a a huge distraction. Besides 5 out of like 50 games he wasn't worth his weight in gold. If they shoot at him my other stuff is not getting shot at. You can ignore him, but he will tie up your army in combat. He has been one shooted :(. Even so he performed like really we'll most of the time.

The problem wit his list is the only shooting he has is his flamers. The chariot khorne models are ok, but without support they will die. I ran nurgle heralds with the mount upgrade with +2 to wound as poison and breath of chaos, which works well with plaguebearers. Plaguebearers aare better this edition since daemons lost gtg. Even so they are durable and that is that. They can't shootand do nothing in combat. I don't take them personally. However I am pondering taking a small squad or two and have them sit on an objective. I personally like horrors due to the better invulnerable save and the fact they can take bolt and fire 3 times a piece. They die in combat, but their support fire with everything else has devestated several armies 1st turn.

A question with the screamers? Did he turbo over units when he ds in. It will give him a +4 save and the ability to attack as they come in with a vector strike of 24". With premeasuring it is easy to get a save distance away and do the strike. Unlees you ds 12" away and scatter 12" away you should be able to rake the units.

That is about it. I like Tzeentch heralds and damon princes of tzeentch even better. I take a loc now for anti air.

If he is running a list like that I would pay the 75 points for the fortification to allow the Daemons not t scatter.

If Khorne on Chariot why not Skulltaker. Better stats and +4 rending allows him to deal with terms. Rarely play taker and thinking of using him now again.


BigToof

Nice work!
Daemons really have gotten a face-lift haven't they?

I've never seen more Tzeench happy people than at the moment.

Hope to see more.

Best,
-BT
BigToof Points:

Cammerz: 8
Waaaghpower: 1
The Man They Call Jayne: 3
Mabbz: 6
Archon Sharrek: 3

Arguleon-veq

I think its mainly down to Necrons why he isnt taking Kairos, they shoot him out of the air pretty easy and then he either gets charged by Wraiths and killed or just shot to death by even more Tesla. The last big tourney I went had the Necrons vs Kairos match up over and over again all over the weekend and I didnt see the Daemons pick up a single win in that match up with Kairos, even when it was top players against less experienced players. Since then ive only seen it a few times and Ive only seen a Kairos list take the win once and that was down to some crazy rolling.

I think Plaguebearers are the only troop choice even remotely worth taking, the others are shot down way too easily and you need to keep those troops alive to stop any flyer spam just taking out your troops and winning on secondary objectives.

He was boosting his screamers for the 4+ cover but because of the way I deployed and slighly because of long scatters he couldnt slash attack any of my units and still remain more than 1'' away at the end of his move besides the turn he did it on my drop pod squad.

Skulltaker is way more points for not really much of a boost in combat potential besides rending. I think he has took those two for cheap HQ's that have to be shot at or they can kill whole marine squads, normally his warlord is fairly safe as he would be in the second wave. I dont think Skulltakers rending is needed when you have so much breath of chaos and screamers.

Im thinking of using daemons myself but im unsure if i should go for Kairos and a second LOC for anti flyer or try for CSM allies with quadgun and helldrake, then there is always this kind of list which skimps on characters to get as many models on the table as it can.
X-Wing Tournaments;
1st - 38
11th - 33

Chicop76

I can see mass tesla grounding him. I went aginst a few necron list and really didn't have any problems as of yet. If he gets grounded that is an extra hit. I have been running Loc and Fateweaver though and they been doing well.

I play my daemons really shooty. I tried all 4 troop choices and foud horrors to work with my play style. Next used to be letters which got nerfed and than daemonettes with nurgle last. The problem I have with nurgle they can contest and last longer getting shot at that's it. My horros can take out or help take out any tank at range thanks to bolt. My daemonettes can rend troops to peaces and take names doing so. My qualms is that all the other troops can make up their points while the nurgle ones struggle to do so. An example of this is just 5 basic assault terms. Wi with, not as good as it was before thanks to rapid fire can move and shot. Daemonettes can rend them. Letters can dish enough wounds to kill one. While nurge would sit there and get beat to death. I take horrors cause that's more bolt shots and more anti vehicle.

With Skullltaker he isn't that much more. I can see if he was really high in cost, but I ran a norm and him and found taker is much better for these reasons.
1. Chop on a rend of 4 it not only denies saves it causes instant death. So if he fights wraiths and get two wounds in. That's 2 dead wraiths. Against Mephiston, chop one wound Mephiston is done and so on. The only instant killing model in the whole army!!!
2. Not to mention more attacks, higher ws,
3. Still have rending where he can take out some vehicles on a 6
4. Blessing of the blood god. One of the best gifts for daemons. Against Mephiston +2 invulnerable save. Any psychic power you have to make a save against you get a +2 invulnerable. It's fun when he fights Mephiston who is double his cost. With instant death wounding on 4 blows and +2 invulnerables he would rarely lose.

I will grab my book now. At base cost Skulltaker is 40 points more counting upgrades. Chariot is 60 points more and on Juggernaut 55 points more. The extra attack and ws is not worth it I agree, but I figure you paying 30-50 points for a force weapon that wounds on 4s with no test.

A good example was when I was playing nids. I was using daemonettes and letters. I was losing until Skulltaker killed 2 Tervigons, Trygon, and a Swarmlord by himself.  :facepalm001:

Atleast for upgrades he should give his khorne guys blessing of the blood god. It is a very cheap power that is really helpful. Some armies have all force weapons and saving on 2s instead of 5s would help.

Although I do gear my princes differant than most. I usually run two princes with bolt and tzeentch and run tzeentch chariots the same sometimes and found that they are devestating. Although against a lot of flyers they would have issues.

Against your wraiths though I think seekers may be a good choice for the seer number of atacks. Actually take that back. Fiends should do well against wraiths.

That is a lot of flamefs and screamers. Looking at this battle report I'm convinced not to run that now. I will stick with 3 five man suicide flamer squads and 1 full seeker squad. My flamers with support fire have wiped out 1,200 points in turn one. Grant it was against an angels army. It didn't hurt that I had The Masque in that list. Not to mention taking out all his tanks out. Go glancing death and strength eigth ap one shots.

The only time my serious daemon army has done badly was against assault cannon heavy angels and me rolling really badly. Learn a lot in that game though.

Personally I thin laying down more fire helps with Daemons. This edition mono Tzeentch is a lot stronger thanks to overwatch.

I think another reason my daemons do so well is I throw people off when I field my 160 point tzeentch princes and my grinder. They do die:(, but they usally do some damage before they go.