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Gue'nam Wing Mk 2

Started by Charistoph, September 02, 2013, 08:49:01 AM

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Charistoph

So, I did an outline a while back found here for a fandex on a Gundam Wing version of a 40K army.  C&C Welcome!

Spoiler
Introduction:
There's a little project I have been working on in my head for a while. I've started putting some of it down. This project was to bring the basic units of the anime series Gundam Wing into 40K in a more practical manner. The Gundam series' Mobile Suits are probably closer to Knights, and so less practical for the level of 40K. There were 2 options at that point. Shrink them one level and make them Walkers, or shrink them even further and put them in to the level of Tau Battlesuits. Since people keep making claims that Tau are the "anime" race, this is the route that this codex will take.

Story:
The basic story I am starting with is that an early Tau colonization effort was redirected to a lonely cluster of humanity which they conquered and managed to take over, but never prospered sufficiently to do more than just be the leaders. After a few human generations, the last Ethereal dies, plunging the remaining Tau into a self-destructive cycle which some enterprising Humans take advantage of, revolting and finishing the Tau's control of the cluster. As part of this process, the humans take advantage of some of the Tau technology with their limited understanding and combining it with Imperium weaponry. They name some of their weapon systems after old memories of the Primarchs of old. They have secured their local cluster, and now the leadership begin to look hungrily outward...

I think I have a basic start for the initial Troop units, so I bring them here for C&C:


Lion Suit Squad ... 75 points
WSBSSTWIALdSvUnit TypeUnit Composition
Lion Suit334423273+Infantry3 Lion Suits
Iron Soul Lion Suit224424273+Infantry
Lion Suit Lt444423383+Infantry (Character)
Wargear:
  • XV-7 Lion Battlesuit
  • Burst Pistol
  • Burst Rifle
  • Frag Grenades
  • Krak Grenades
Special Rules:
  • Bulky
Options:
  • May add up to 2 more Lion Suits.....................25 pts/model
  • Any Lion Suit may exchange their Burst Rifle for a Close Combat Weapon or Burst Carbine..........................free
  • One Lion Suit may take a Battlesuit Special Weapon.
  • The fifth Lion Suit may take a Battlesuit Heavy Weapon.

  • Upgrade one Lion Suit to Lion Suit Lt........10points
  • The Lion Suit Lt may take Battlesuit Melee Weapons.
  • If a Lion Suit Lt is purchased, all remaining Lion Suits may be upgraded with an Iron Soul to be become Iron Soul Lion Suits.......10pts/model
  • The unit may take a Centurata as a Dedicated Transport.


Fire Team ...40 points
WSBSSTWIALdSvUnit TypeUnit Composition
Fire Soldier333313174+Infantry4 Fire Soldiers
Fire Corporal333313174+Infantry (Character)1 Fire Corporal
Fire Sarge443313274+Infantry (Character)
Fire Lt443313284+Infantry (Character)
You may include up to five Fire Teams in a single Troops slot.
Wargear:
  • Carapace Armour
  • Light Pistol
  • Light Rifle
  • Frag Grenades
  • Krak Grenades
Special Rules:
  • Combined Squad
  • Combat Orders (Fire Lt)
Options:
  • Any Fire Team Member may exchange their Light Rifle with a Close Combat Weapon or Light Carbine............................free
  • One Fire Soldier per Squad may take a Ranged Weapon.
  • Any other Fire Soldier may purchase one of the following:
    • Claw Missile..........8pts
    • Talon Missile.........8pts

  • If two or four Fire Team Squads are purchased in a single Choice, you may upgrade up to two Fire Corporals to a Fire Sarge................5 pts/model
  • If five Fire Team Squads are purchased in a single Choice, you may upgrade one Fire Corporal to a Fire Lt.......10 pts/model
  • Any Fire Corporal or Sarge may purchase Meltabombs........5pts
  • Any Fire Sarge or Lt may take Melee Weapons.
  • Each squad may take a Chimera or Hornet as a Dedicated Transport.
Ranged Weapons:


Burst Rifle
RangeSAPType
24"55Salvo 2/3

Burst Carbine
RangeSAPType
18"55Assault 3

Burst Pistol
RangeSAPType
12"55Pistol

Heavy Plasma Gun
RangeSAPType
24"72Salvo 2/3, Gets Hot!
Heavy Plasma Pistol
RangeSAPType
12"72Pistol, Gets Hot!

Light Rifle
RangeSAPType
30"36Rapid Fire

Light Carbine
RangeSAPType
18"35Assault 2

Light Pistol
RangeSAPType
12"36Pistol
Plasma Rifle
RangeSAPType
24"62Rapid Fire

Light Plasma Pistol
RangeSAPType
12"62Pistol

Claw Missile
RangeSAPType
24"73Heavy 1, One Shot

Talon Missile
RangeSAPType
36"63Heavy 1, One Shot, Skyfire

Melee Weapons:
Beam Sword
Range
S
APType
-User3Melee, Rending

Wargear:
Iron Soul
A model equipped with the Iron Soul Gains The Slow and Purposeful, Fearless, and Counter-Fire rules.  In addition, the model's WS and BS is decreased by 1 and I is increased by 1.  In addition, all Ranged Weapons gain Twin-Linked.  If the weapon is Heavy, it gains Gets Hot!.  If the weapon already has Gets Hot!, the affect occurs on a 1 or a 2.

Army Rules:
Combined Squad: When it deploys, Teams with this rule may combine with other Teams purchased as part of the same slot.  If you decide to form any Teams into a larger unit, they they are treated as a single unit from that point on.  They may not separate again during the game.

Combat Orders: A model with this rule may choose not to shoot, but make a Leadership-test, if successful give one of the following abilities of the unit he is with, if the ability requires a Leadership Test, it is to be considered passed:
  • Stealth
  • Counter-Attack
  • Split-Fire
  • Crusader

Edit 1: Adjustments to remove some old forgotten artifacts.
Edit 2: Some adjustments to Combat Orders and the Fire Team.
Edit 3: Some more adjustments to the Fire Team and replacing Combat Squad with Combined Squad.[/list]
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Rarity Declis

I'm just looking for things that could be broken.


Lightning Claw; 5 pts cheaper.
Beam Sword; A Rending Power Sword... which is also 5pts cheaper than a normal Power Sword.
Power Fist; 10 pts cheaper.
Heavy Plasma Pistol; exactly the same as a normal Plasma Pistol
Why can't I exchange my Burst Pistol for a Close Combat Weapon?


The Heavy Weapons seem a bit pointless; their armament means they are a moving unit; the fact they can't take Transports or move quickly means they are definitely a moving unit, and yet they can't move and shoot heavy weapons? Why add them to the unit at all then?

Why is the Lascannon so expensive? This is a close combat- mid range unit, so Lascannons' range won't be used, and up close, the Multi-Melta is better... Points decrease, perhaps, otherwise you'll never take one... meaning it's not balanced.
Heavy Bolter is 5 points more... for a single AP better, and in inability to move and shoot without Snap-Firing?

So, for 135pts, I can have a 5 man unit of Lion Suits which can put out 12 Twin-Linked/Shredding Str 5 shots with 10 wounds, 3+ saves at 24"?

For 135pts (2x Burst Cannons and Advanced Targeting System) I can have a unit of Tau Crisis Battlesuits, who can Jump-Shoot-Jump, with 24 shots at Str 5, all of which Precision Shot on a 6, have the same save and Armour Save, better leadership and move faster as well as Deep Strike.

The only role I can see for them is camping an objective, which for 75pts, they're VERY good. But a front line unit, they most certainly are not.

Maybe they're an assault squad?

5x Lion Suits, with Burst Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, Lion Suit Sgt. with Beam Sword.
145pts.

That gives me 16 attacks on the charge, at WS3, Str 4, and 5 Rending Power Sword attacks at Str 5, on a unit with  10 wounds and walking speed and no transport, and Marine Toughness, so they will be killed by hidden Power Fists and such.

Comparatively, I can take 10 Assault Marines for 155pts from the Dark Angels book. They move faster, have 31 attacks on the charge at the same strength, plus 10 Hammer of Wrath attacks, and the same amount of wounds, as well as higher Leadership to stay in the fight.

So, the only use they have is you buy a unit for 75pts and they stay on an objective in the back.

Haven't looked at the infantry yet.


Charistoph

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 02, 2013, 09:22:41 AM
I'm just looking for things that could be broken.
Thank you.

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 02, 2013, 09:22:41 AMLightning Claw; 5 pts cheaper.
Beam Sword; A Rending Power Sword... which is also 5pts cheaper than a normal Power Sword.
Power Fist; 10 pts cheaper.
Ah, yes, Artifacts left over from an earlier design.  The Lion Suit Lt was originally supposed to come with a Power Weapon.  When I changed that part, I apparently forgot to adjust the Lt's weapon prices.  Adjusted.

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 02, 2013, 09:22:41 AMHeavy Plasma Pistol; exactly the same as a normal Plasma Pistol
Normal for the Imperium for stats.  Fluff-wise, it's reinforced to be used in close combat by the Lion Suits which are larger than even the Astartes.

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 02, 2013, 09:22:41 AMWhy can't I exchange my Burst Pistol for a Close Combat Weapon?
Why would you want to?  Pistols already are a CCW.  Admittedly, if I keep the Suit's ability to Assault after firing Salvo weapons, it becomes an almost useless weapon as opposed to the pistols used by most Rapid Fire Troops.

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 02, 2013, 09:22:41 AMThe Heavy Weapons seem a bit pointless; their armament means they are a moving unit; the fact they can't take Transports or move quickly means they are definitely a moving unit, and yet they can't move and shoot heavy weapons? Why add them to the unit at all then?
1) I haven't included Dedicated Transports because I haven't designed them completely, yet, so I haven't included them in the list.
2) Why is there a Heavy Weapon in a Tactical Squad?  Same reason, really.
3) I'm adjusting the Burst Rifle and Heavy Plasma Guns Salvo ratios as well.

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 02, 2013, 09:22:41 AMWhy is the Lascannon so expensive? This is a close combat- mid range unit, so Lascannons' range won't be used, and up close, the Multi-Melta is better... Points decrease, perhaps, otherwise you'll never take one... meaning it's not balanced.
Heavy Bolter is 5 points more... for a single AP better, and in inability to move and shoot without Snap-Firing?
Some more old artifacts.  I forgot to restructure the pricing to reflect DA's numbers.  (HB is 10 pts in both CSM and DA, though).

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 02, 2013, 09:22:41 AMSo, for 135pts, I can have a 5 man unit of Lion Suits which can put out 12 Twin-Linked/Shredding Str 5 shots with 10 wounds, 3+ saves at 24"?
Wait, where do they get TL/Shredding?  The Lion Suits don't have access to Combat Orders, that's just the Fire Team.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Rarity Declis

:P Right, well, my biggest gripe is that they are designed to be a shooty unit which can't really be made into a decent shooting unit (not enough shots, they're not high enough AP, and they're not high enough str, so not sure what role they're meant to shot).

Or, they're a potential assault unit which cannot move quick enough, and doesn't put out enough attacks or a high enough str to make them worth taking.

So, like I said, the depressing fact is that they're a camping unit at best- unless you designed them for the role, in which case... okay.




I really like the Fire Team squad.

I've had a look; Flamers being free make them an amazing option, so I'd increase it to maybe 3pts or something. Alternatively, the Grenade Launcher is so-so, especially when every model can take Claw/Talon launchers, so I'd possibly reduce that to 3pts as well.

I think the Light Rifle is a tad underwhelming, maybe add an extra pip of AP or Str; likewise with the carbine. Not going to break the game, just going to make the unit nicer. Or reduce it to 35pts per squad.

The options to add more people in blocks of 5 was a little confusingly worded, but I picked it up.

For one shot weapons, they're a really good idea, they add some good versatility to the unit without having the age-old problem of "infantry guns, anti-tank missile, waste the big shot or waste the little shots".

My thoughts are, instead of Twin-Linked or Shred, perhaps offer "Split Fire" as the Lt. organises the squad under the Sergeants, and "Stealth" as the Lt organises the squad into a sneaking pattern, or "Counter-attack" as the Lt prepares for an incoming assault. Pick one per turn. I've never liked the whole "I'm talking to you, now you shoot better" thing. A commander commands, not offers a shooting lesson in the middle of a fight.

But the Fire Team is a really, really good unit which would nearly always be used over the Lion Suits already.

Charistoph

#4
Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 03, 2013, 09:42:35 AM
:P Right, well, my biggest gripe is that they are designed to be a shooty unit which can't really be made into a decent shooting unit (not enough shots, they're not high enough AP, and they're not high enough str, so not sure what role they're meant to shot).

Or, they're a potential assault unit which cannot move quick enough, and doesn't put out enough attacks or a high enough str to make them worth taking.

So, like I said, the depressing fact is that they're a camping unit at best- unless you designed them for the role, in which case... okay.
Aside from volume of shots (which is mostly attributed to the lack of volume from the Special/Heavy Weapons, I assume?), what would make them offensively shooty while still retaining a mix of Imperium and Tau?  Should they also have Combat Orders as well?

I also know it can be hard to balance units without seeing the entire army list, but thanks for the help.

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 03, 2013, 09:42:35 AM
I really like the Fire Team squad.

I've had a look; Flamers being free make them an amazing option, so I'd increase it to maybe 3pts or something. Alternatively, the Grenade Launcher is so-so, especially when every model can take Claw/Talon launchers, so I'd possibly reduce that to 3pts as well.
The pricing was based on what the Imperial Guard codex had.  I can recheck to make sure it's up to par.

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 03, 2013, 09:42:35 AMI think the Light Rifle is a tad underwhelming, maybe add an extra pip of AP or Str; likewise with the carbine. Not going to break the game, just going to make the unit nicer. Or reduce it to 35pts per squad.
It was based on the old Inquisitorial Storm Trooper Helgun, with additional range.  I figured I'd balance the range buff with a AP nerf on the Rifle.  I  had the Carbine at Str: 4, AP 6, at one point, but thought that would be a little much so allowed for the range to improve it's AP.  AP: 4 would be a little TOO good for a standard Troop weapon, especially when it can be deployed in such numbers.

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 03, 2013, 09:42:35 AMThe options to add more people in blocks of 5 was a little confusingly worded, but I picked it up.
Apologies.  I originally wrote this up as a 5th Edition book, which was actually easier for this set up (see IG).  I don't know a better way to type it up, at the moment.  The purpose was to try and recreate something similar to a small modern platoon with 5 man squads that could either operate as a whole or as multiple squads as needed.  Any suggestions to make it clearer?  Should I list it as adding a Squad first with what makes the squad in parentheses?

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 03, 2013, 09:42:35 AMFor one shot weapons, they're a really good idea, they add some good versatility to the unit without having the age-old problem of "infantry guns, anti-tank missile, waste the big shot or waste the little shots".
Again, looking at how a modern military would do it.  Focusing more on the ability to keep movement as part of their paradigm, but still needed to apply an AT punch as needed.  The LAW and Stinger came to mind from there, and wallah.

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 03, 2013, 09:42:35 AMMy thoughts are, instead of Twin-Linked or Shred, perhaps offer "Split Fire" as the Lt. organises the squad under the Sergeants, and "Stealth" as the Lt organises the squad into a sneaking pattern, or "Counter-attack" as the Lt prepares for an incoming assault. Pick one per turn. I've never liked the whole "I'm talking to you, now you shoot better" thing. A commander commands, not offers a shooting lesson in the middle of a fight.
Good ideas.  I'll plug them.

Should the Fire Team have the option to purchase Carapace Armour?  I had that in mind, but I guess I forgot to add it to the original document so it wasn't upgraded.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Narric

I'ma take a crack at this unit :P

First impression is there shouldn't be a seperate Statline for "Iron Soul" suits. It clutters up the entry in my personal opinion. The "Iron Soul" needs more explianing. Is the suit so well use and old, that a psychic imprint has been left in the machine, allowed it to be animate without a pilot? Sounds cool, but I highly doubt an imperial colony would readily use such tech, as it might be considered a heretical act once they return to the imperium (if that is their goal).
Looking further at "Iron Soul" it makes no sense that it would lower WS & BS and its I would increase. An explianation behind Iron soul would help here.
The additional effect to the weapons carried seem a bit wish-y-wash-y. IT actually doesn't sound like an appealing upgrade at all. Unless you're tooling for Combat, where that bonus to your I is useful.

Stabilized Platform = Relentless. Saves you some writing ;)

Combat Squad sounds too Marine-y. Assuming these units are formed from IG ranks, they're be more inclined to Combine Squads, then seperate. Massed Focused Firepower is a terrifying sight to see on the battlefield, no matter which side you're on.

Combat Orders feel like an interesting idea, not given full thought. What is the point of gaining Split-fire if you can't shoot? Remove Split-fire, and make it an ability similar to IG Stormtroopers "Special Operations" ability. It allows the player to use the unit more tactically against multiple opponents, over multiple games.

- The Lion Suit stats feel off, as I'd assume IG Vets to be the Pilots. BS4 should be minimum (excluding Iron Soul).
- I'd personally prefer these to start with a Rifle and CC weapon, with the option to go full CC by swapping the rifle to a Pistol. Full Ranged coule be swapping the CC weapon to a Heavy weapon.
- The fourth option mentioning a "Fifth" Lion Suit, would be better phrased as "When the squad is filled, a second Lion Suit may replace his Burst Rifle with one of the following:"
- Burst Carbines should be a unit upgrae, not a Character exlusive. Maybe include a small price to it then?
- You included upgrade options for the Character multiple times. You can condence it itnto a single option set like this: "The Lion Suit Lt may exchange his Burst Rifle and/or Burst Pistol for one of the following: Burst Carbine or CCW...free | Lightning Claw..........15pts | Beam Sword.............15pts | Power Fist...............25pts"
- Iron Soul needs more explaination before I can give my opinions on its cost.

- My first gripe about the fire team is the multiple Character types. This is bad in my opinion, as you need only one Character type per unit. Leave it at "Fire sergeant" and carry on ;)
- If you want to make up to four Fire Teams a single FOC choice, it is better to write just that under the unit name, like so: "You may include up to five Fire Teams in a single Troops slot." However, I'd highly recommend limiting how many Fire Team Slots can be taken, overwise they'll outnumber IG horrible, aspecially at their cost in pts.
- Please put a limit on that Missile upgrade. If this is a Troops choice, for just 720pts, you have 40 missile shots, which will undoubtably destroy the Flyer they're targeted at. Taking that to the extreme, thats 120 S6/S7 shots that'll hit on a 4+. Here is some rolls:
To hit: http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4203601/
To Penetrate (assuming AV11): http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4203602/
Thats 15 times these will either glance or penetrate most non-imperial flyers.
- The option for Special Weapons is semi-redundant with such fire-power available to the whole squad.
- the upgrade option for upping Corps to sarges doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why not say "Up to two/three Corporals, may be upgraded to Sarges"? this assuming you keep the varying Characters.
- Again with the Upgrade to Leiutenant, say "One Corporal may be upgraded to a Leiutenant"
- Why cannot Leiutenants carry Meltabombs?
- Why cannot the Corporal Carry a Special CC weapon?
- Why can only the Leiutenant carry a Plasma Pistol?

The weapons look alright, its mostly the units they're upgrades for that needs work in my opinion.
With the exception being the Beam Sword. this thing would probably be best being Str7, and AP2. Its essential a Light saber, or maybe a sword made of Plasma. I don't think Rending is really needed after that change.

Thats just my opinion on these.

Charistoph

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
First impression is there shouldn't be a seperate Statline for "Iron Soul" suits. It clutters up the entry in my personal opinion. The "Iron Soul" needs more explianing. Is the suit so well use and old, that a psychic imprint has been left in the machine, allowed it to be animate without a pilot? Sounds cool, but I highly doubt an imperial colony would readily use such tech, as it might be considered a heretical act once they return to the imperium (if that is their goal).
Looking further at "Iron Soul" it makes no sense that it would lower WS & BS and its I would increase. An explianation behind Iron soul would help here.
The additional effect to the weapons carried seem a bit wish-y-wash-y. IT actually doesn't sound like an appealing upgrade at all. Unless you're tooling for Combat, where that bonus to your I is useful.
I didn't include the fluff for it, so it's easy to not know.  In Gundam Wing (which this is mostly inspired by), not only are there giant piloted robots, but they actually made some to be piloted by machine.  Most were retrofitted in to existing suits that were originally piloted by people.  In the Imperium and Tau Empire, they have similar devices in the Machine Spirits and Drones.  These people lost the ability to manufacture the Machine Spirits, but Gun Drones were available by the but load.  The lower BS and WS while having better I (and TL) are all features of the Gun Drone.  They have good reflexes (Initiative and Twin-Linked), but have have a hard time learning and retaining experience (low BS and WS).  The Gets Hot! feature is more due to them not recognizing the subtle tricks of the Heavy Weapons and may easily be used beyond their limits.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
Stabilized Platform = Relentless. Saves you some writing ;)
But Relentless is completely different.  If I wanted to have them move, shoot, and charge without limit, they would have been Relentless.  I have that planned for a much nastier and bigger (and limited) unit.  Of course, if I don't have a Rapid Fire weapon on a model that has this Rule I may remove it all together.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
Combat Squad sounds too Marine-y. Assuming these units are formed from IG ranks, they're be more inclined to Combine Squads, then seperate. Massed Focused Firepower is a terrifying sight to see on the battlefield, no matter which side you're on.
They follow a mixture of IG and Tau traditions, as well as half-remembered stories of Space Marines.  You may have a point about the setup, though.  5th Edition style was much easier to do this with, but we don't have an IG for 6th Edition for an adequate comparison, so this version is quite clunky.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
Combat Orders feel like an interesting idea, not given full thought. What is the point of gaining Split-fire if you can't shoot? Remove Split-fire, and make it an ability similar to IG Stormtroopers "Special Operations" ability. It allows the player to use the unit more tactically against multiple opponents, over multiple games.
Um, the entire unit gains Split Fire, not just the Lt.

As for Spec Ops suggestion, that may work better for the Elite Light Infantry unit that I have planned, but Troops units need to be more flexible.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- The Lion Suit stats feel off, as I'd assume IG Vets to be the Pilots. BS4 should be minimum (excluding Iron Soul).
I can understand where you're coming from, but I don't think this will change for two reasons:
1) Crisis Suit pilots are also Veterans, and yet still are limited to a lower BS than most Veterans.
2) The Lion Suits are the base unit of the battlesuit pilots and there are more elite corps available.

Just a couple more problems with having only 1 FOC to work with.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- I'd personally prefer these to start with a Rifle and CC weapon, with the option to go full CC by swapping the rifle to a Pistol. Full Ranged coule be swapping the CC weapon to a Heavy weapon.
So having a Rifle and Pistol and swapping the Rifle for a CCW (which all the Lions can) is not as good as having a Rifle and CCW and swapping the Rifle for a Pistol?

The reason the Pistol is there instead of a CCW is because the Lions cannot charge after firing Salvo weapons (currently), but can after firing the Pistols.  That's why the Marines from Dark Angels 4th on (including the Chaos Marines) have carried them.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- The fourth option mentioning a "Fifth" Lion Suit, would be better phrased as "When the squad is filled, a second Lion Suit may replace his Burst Rifle with one of the following:"
I think just saying that "the Fifth Suit" takes up less space then all the other stuff.  If it's that annoying, it can be changed.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- Burst Carbines should be a unit upgrae, not a Character exlusive. Maybe include a small price to it then?
What are you talking about?  They are possible as a unit upgrade.  In fact, it's right after the numbers allowed in the squad, just like the Fire Teams.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- You included upgrade options for the Character multiple times. You can condence it itnto a single option set like this: "The Lion Suit Lt may exchange his Burst Rifle and/or Burst Pistol for one of the following: Burst Carbine or CCW...free | Lightning Claw..........15pts | Beam Sword.............15pts | Power Fist...............25pts"
Because I haven't included the Armoury like 6th's Sergeants have, and I didn't think it fair to be able to have 2 Plasma Pistols going off the standard upgrade list.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- My first gripe about the fire team is the multiple Character types. This is bad in my opinion, as you need only one Character type per unit. Leave it at "Fire sergeant" and carry on ;)
And yet, IG can have 5 Characters in a single unit.  But each of these Characters each have a job to do.  The Lt's job is his Leadership, while the Sarge is more of a fighter and more practical.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- If you want to make up to four Fire Teams a single FOC choice, it is better to write just that under the unit name, like so: "You may include up to five Fire Teams in a single Troops slot." However, I'd highly recommend limiting how many Fire Team Slots can be taken, overwise they'll outnumber IG horrible, aspecially at their cost in pts.
Um, no, they can't.  When one can fit 120 models before vehicles in to an IG Platoon, I don't think a unit with a maximum size of 25 is going to be able to outnumber that or the 50 man Blob Squad any time soon.  Yeah, the Squad is a Vet upgrade more expensive, but they are also twice the size.

Now, your suggestion for writing them up is pointed.  I'll try writing it up and see how it looks.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- Please put a limit on that Missile upgrade. If this is a Troops choice, for just 720pts, you have 40 missile shots, which will undoubtably destroy the Flyer they're targeted at. Taking that to the extreme, thats 120 S6/S7 shots that'll hit on a 4+. Here is some rolls:
To hit: http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4203601/
To Penetrate (assuming AV11): http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4203602/
Thats 15 times these will either glance or penetrate most non-imperial flyers.
Well, they are One-Shots, so all that firepower is a one off.  Still, you do have a point.  It may be wise to limit them to just the 3 Fire Soldiers who have no other weapon options.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- The option for Special Weapons is semi-redundant with such fire-power available to the whole squad.
Not when such firepower is only available once per game.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- the upgrade option for upping Corps to sarges doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why not say "Up to two/three Corporals, may be upgraded to Sarges"? this assuming you keep the varying Characters.
- Again with the Upgrade to Leiutenant, say "One Corporal may be upgraded to a Leiutenant"
It's the personality of the army.  The number of Squads determines the amount of leadership required for the group.  A group of 15 only requires a Sergeant, while the command for 25 is set up for a Lt.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- Why cannot Leiutenants carry Meltabombs?
The Lt's job is to provide Leadership and Orders.  The NCOs are for practical work.  Consider it a quirk.  Much like your next question.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
- Why cannot the Corporal Carry a Special CC weapon?
- Why can only the Leiutenant carry a Plasma Pistol?
Cost and prestige.  No other real reason.

Quote from: Narric on September 03, 2013, 07:10:37 PM
With the exception being the Beam Sword. this thing would probably be best being Str7, and AP2. Its essential a Light saber, or maybe a sword made of Plasma. I don't think Rending is really needed after that change.
Maybe.  That may be good for a "Relic" weapon, but maybe a little too good for a 'common grunt' weapon, imo.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Rarity Declis

You see, I don't think that the One-Shot Missiles need limiting to only 3 men or whatever that can't carry other weapons; they are one shot, and whilst you can get 25 shots with one unit, that's 400pts on BS3 models.

If anything, increase the costs to 10pts each; then it's the same price as a Missile Launcher, but only one shot, and if someone wants to spend 500pts on a unit which is 210pts, you're got effectively Imperial Guardsmen which cost 13pts (the same as a Space Marine) who get one Missile Shot, which will miss half the time.

I really like the idea, myself. One trouble may be keeping track of who has used their Missile Launcher or not (new wound allocation rules from 6th)- maybe just have tokens? I bought 10 Missiles, so I get 10 Tokens by this unit, and in the Shooting Phase, it can fire (from a Fire Soldier model only) a Missile for each available Fire Soldier, who then cannot shoot that turn?

Just a little thought.

Charistoph

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 04, 2013, 08:51:26 AM
You see, I don't think that the One-Shot Missiles need limiting to only 3 men or whatever that can't carry other weapons; they are one shot, and whilst you can get 25 shots with one unit, that's 400pts on BS3 models.
True, but I think I will keep it at 3 per squad for now.  I can always raise it or test it later at a full 5 or even 4.

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 04, 2013, 08:51:26 AM
If anything, increase the costs to 10pts each; then it's the same price as a Missile Launcher, but only one shot, and if someone wants to spend 500pts on a unit which is 210pts, you're got effectively Imperial Guardsmen which cost 13pts (the same as a Space Marine) who get one Missile Shot, which will miss half the time.
10 points is too much.  An HK costs that much and is 1 Str higher than the Claw.  And a Missile Launcher is stronger and reloads.

Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 04, 2013, 08:51:26 AM
I really like the idea, myself. One trouble may be keeping track of who has used their Missile Launcher or not (new wound allocation rules from 6th)- maybe just have tokens? I bought 10 Missiles, so I get 10 Tokens by this unit, and in the Shooting Phase, it can fire (from a Fire Soldier model only) a Missile for each available Fire Soldier, who then cannot shoot that turn?
That is a good point.  The problem being that is not how the game is organized at the moment.  A good example for that is Seekers for a squad of Piranhas.  Just because 3 Piranhas out of 5 take them, doesn't mean the other 2 can fire them when they are dropped.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Charistoph

So, I'm pretty close to finishing most of the units up for this list.  I'm struggling a little bit on how to organize a light bomber (or even if I should) and some of the Special Character's rules, though.

But any way, quick question, which would you like to see next.  I have the Troops slot up, so should I post HQ, Elites, FA, HS, or the Special Character's next?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Narric

I say post them up in the order of HQ, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support. wait for some feedback then adjust and post the Special Characters last.

Looking forward to what you've worked on ^_^

Charistoph

#11
Good plan.

Now, keep in mind these HQs are still a little rough, especially points and some of the options, and there are also six Special Characters in the HQ slot which will be listed later.  Equipment, Special Rules, and lists will be added later, it's starting to get late.

HQ
Angel Suit Commander                                                          100 pts
   WSBSSTWIALdSv  Unit Type  Unit Composition
Angel Commander
4
4
5 4 4 3 4 10 3+   Jump Infantry (Character)    1 Angel Commander
Wargear:
  • Angel Battlesuit
  • Burst Pistol
  • Beam Sword
Wargear (Continued):
  • Krak Grenades
Special Rules:
  • Independent Character
  • Night Fighting
  • Flight Form
Options:
  • The Angel Commander may choose any items from the Commanders Weapons, Special Wargear, or Relics lists.
Flight Form
If any model with this rule uses their Jump Pack during the Movement Phase, they may make a special Turbo-Boost move instead of Running or firing in the Shooting Phase.  While using this Turbo-Boost move, these models may then move up to 12", move over all terrain and models freely, and receives the Jink special rule.  However, if the model begins or ends their movement in Difficult Terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test.  The model may not end their movement on another model or in Impassible Terrain.  The model cannot shoot, charge or execute any other voluntary action for the rest of the turn after Turbo-boosting.

Lion Suit Commander                                                              75 pts
   WSBSSTWIALdSv  Unit Type  Unit Composition
Lion Commander
4
4
4 4 4 3 4 10 3+   Infantry (Character)    1 LionCommander
Wargear:
  • Lion Battlesuit
  • Burst Pistol
  • Beam Sword
Wargear (Continued):
  • Krak Grenades
Special Rules:
  • Bulky
  • Independent Character
  • Night Fighting
Options:
  • The Lion Commander may choose any items from the Commanders Weapons, Special Wargear, or Relics lists.

Lion Command Squad                                                  60 pts
You may take one Lion Command Squad per Lion Suit Commander, Ke'Tra Wit'ner, Sa'Xon Masqui, or Tries Kish'Ren.  This unit does not take up an HQ slot.
WSBSSTWIALdSvUnit TypeUnit Composition
Veteran Lion444423383+Infantry2 Veteran Lions
Veteran Lion Lt444423383+Infantry (Character)
Wargear:
  • Lion Battlesuit
  • Burst Pistol
  • Burst Rifle
  • Assault Grenades
  • Krak Grenades
Options:
  • May add up to 2 more Veteran Lions.....................30 pts/model
  • Any model may exchange their Burst Rifle for one of the following:
    • Battlesuit Special Weapon
    • Battlesuit Melee Weapon
    • Close Combat Weapon...Free
    • Burst Carbine..................Free

  • If the Lion Command Squad has four models, the fourth may exchange their Burst Rifle for a Battlesuit Heavy Weapon.
  • Upgrade one Lion Suit to Lion Suit Lt........10points
  • The unit may take a Centurata as a Dedicated Transport.

Command Team                                                            60 pts
WSBSSTWIALdSvUnit TypeUnit Composition
Veteran Fire Soldier343313274+Infantry3 Veteran Fire Soldiers
Fire Champion443313274+Infantry (Character)1 Fire Champion
Fire Commander443323294+Infantry (Character)
Chained Psyker22331316-Infantry
Wargear:
  • Carapace Armour
  • Light Pistol
  • Light Rifle
  • Assault Grenades
  • Krak Grenades
  • Psychic Hood (Chained Psyker)
Special Rules:
  • Battle Orders (Fire Commander)
  • Psyker (Mastery Level 2, Chained Psyker)
  • Psychic Bomb(Chained Psyker)
Options:

  • May add one Chained Psyker....30 pts
  • Any model may exchange their Light Rifle for one of the following:
    • Ranged Weapon
    • Melee Weapon
    • Close Combat Weapon......free
    • Light Carbine.....................free
  • Any model may exchange their Light Pistol for a Melee Weapon.
  • The Fire Champion may purchase Meltabombs...................................5 pts
  • Any Veteran Fire Soldier may purchase one of the following:
    • Claw Missile.................8pts
    • Talon Missile.......................8pts
  • The unit may exchange their Carapace Armour for Stealth Armour..............................free
  • The unit may be mounted on Bikes..........20 pts
  • If not mounted on Bikes, the unit may take a Chimera or Hornet as a Dedicated Transport.
Psychic Bomb
A model with this rule may be voluntarily removed from play in its Movement Phase.  Doing so will cause all Warp Charges to be removed from any Psykers on the table and prevent Warp Charges from being generated until the unit's next Movement Phase.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Charistoph

#12
Wargear List and Armoury

Commander Weapons
A Commander may exchange his Beam Sword for one of the following:
- Lightning Claw..............................free
- Power Fist...................................5 pts
- Chain Fist..................................10 pts

A Commander may exchange his Burst Pistol for one of the following:
- Heavy Plasma Pistol..................15 pts
- Lightning Claw..........................15 pts

Battlesuit Melee Weapons
A model may exchange one weapon for one of the following:
- Lightning Claw..........................15 pts
- Beam Sword..............................20 pts
Range
S
APType
-User3Melee, Rending
- Power Fist.................................25 pts
- Chain Fist..................................30 pts

A model may exchange his Burst Pistol for one of the following:
- Heavy Plasma Pistol..................15 pts
- Lightning Claw..........................15 pts

Battlesuit Special Weapons
A Suit may replace one weapon with one of the following:
- Flamer..........................................free
- Meltagun..................................10 pts
- Heavy Plasma Gun...................20 pts
RangeSAPType
24"72Salvo 2/3, Gets Hot!

Battlesuit Heavy Weapons
A Suit may replace one weapon with one of the following:
- Heavy Bolter..............................5 pts
- Autocannon.............................10 pts
- Multi-melta...............................10 pts
- Beam Sword............................15 pts
- Missile Launcher......................15 pts
- Plasma Cannon.......................15 pts
- Lascannon...............................20 pts
Melee Weapons
A model may exchange his Light Rifle for one of the following:
- Power Weapon..........................5 pts
- Power Fist..................................5 pts

A model may exchange his Light Pistol with:
- Light Plasma Pistol...................15 pts
RangeSAPType
12"62Pistol

Ranged Weapons
A model may replace a weapon with one of the following:
- Flamer........................................5 pts
- Grenade Launcher......................5 pts
- Meltagun..................................10 pts
- Light Stubber...........................10 pts
RangeSAPType
30"36Salvo 2/5
- Plasma Rifle..............................15 pts
RangeSAPType
24"62Rapid Fire

Special Issue Wargear
A model may take up to one of each of the following:
- Melta Bombs...............................5 pts
- Combat Shield............................5 pts
A Combat Shield confers a 6+ Invulnerable Save.
- Needlers.....................................5 pts
Models equipped with Needlers do not suffer the penalty to their Initiative for charging enemies through cover, but fight at their normal Initiative in the ensuing combat.  Needlers may also be fired in the Shooting Phase with the following profile:
RangeSAPType
12"2-Assault 1, Twin-Linked
- Shield Generator......................25 pts
A Shield Generator confers a 4+ Invulnerable Save.

Relics
A model may take one of the following, limit one of each per army:
- Zeomega Link...........................40 pts
A model with a Zeomega Link grants the army a non-cumulative +1 to Steal Initiative, allows the army to reroll for Reserves.  In addition, this model and any unit it is with may fire in Overwatch at BS 2.
- Zeomega System......................60 pts
A model with the Zeomega System receives a +1 to BS, WS, A, and I.  At the beginning of every player turn, the model must take a Leadership Test.  If it passes, it may operate as normal.  If it fails, it must shoot at and charge the nearest unit, even if it is a friendly or allied unit.

Vehicle Equipment
A model can take up to one of each of the following:
- Searchlight.....................................1 pt
- Dozer Blade..................................5 pts
- Pintle-mounted Heavy Stubber.....5 pts
- Extra Armour...............................10 pts
- Hunter Killer Missile.....................10 pts

Edit: Added Light Stubber to Ranged Weapon list.
Edit 2: Added Vehicle Equipment.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Charistoph

#13
Elites
Angel Suit Squad                                                          90 pts
   WSBSSTWIALdSv  Unit Type  Unit Composition
Angel Suit
4
4
4 4 2 3 2 8 3+   Jump Infantry  3 Angel Suits
Angel Suit Lt
4
4
4 4 2 3 2 9 3+   Jump Infantry (Character)   
Wargear:
  • Angel Battlesuit
  • Burst Pistol
  • Burst Rifle
  • Assault Grenades
  • Krak Grenades
Special Rules:
  • Night Fighting
  • Flight Form
Options:
  • May add up to 2 more Angel Suits.....................30 pts/model
  • Any Angel Suit may exchange their Burst Rifle for a Close Combat Weapon or Burst Carbine..........................free
  • One Angel Suit may take a Battlesuit Special Weapon.
  • If the squad has five models, then one Angel Suit may take a Battlesuit Special Weapon or a:
    • Beam Sword.....................15 pts

  • Upgrade one Angel Suit to Angel Suit Lt........10points
  • The Angel Suit Lt may take Battlesuit Melee Weapons.
  • If a Angel Suit Lt is purchased, all remaining Angel Suits may be upgraded with Iron Souls.......10pts/model

Golem Suit Squad                                                          90 pts
   WSBSSTWIALdSv  Unit Type  Unit Composition
Golem Suit
2
2
4 4 2 4 2 7 3+   Infantry  3 Golem Suits
Wargear:
  • Golem Battlesuit
  • Heavy Plasma Gun
  • Iron Soul
  • Shield System
Special Rules:
  • Bulky
  • Night Fighting
  • Slow and Purposeful (But can fire Salvo as if moved in Overwatch)
Options:
  • May add up to 2 more Golem Suits..........30 pts/model
Shield System
A Shield System confers a 5+ Invulnerable Save on the model and its unit.  If more than three models in the unit possess this system, all models gain a 4+ Invulnerable Save.

Water Team                                                          40 pts
You may include up to five Water Teams in a single Elite choice.
WSBSSTWIALdSvUnit TypeUnit Composition
Water Soldier443313175+Infantry4 Water Soldiers
Water Corporal443313175+Infantry (Character)1 Water Corporal
Water Sarge443313275+Infantry (Character)
Water Lt443313285+Infantry (Character)
Wargear:
  • Stealth Armour
  • Light Pistol
  • Light Carbine
  • Assault Grenades
  • Krak Grenades
Special Rules:
  • Combined Squad
  • Combat Orders (Water Lt)
  • Special Operations
Options:
  • Any model may exchange their Light Carbine with one of the following:

    • Close Combat Weapon............................free
    • Sniper Rifle...................................2 pts/model
  • One Water Soldier per Squad may take a Ranged Weapon.
  • Any other Water Soldier may purchase one of the following:
    • Claw Missile..........8pts
    • Talon Missile.........8pts

  • If two or four Water Team Squads are purchased in a single Choice, you may upgrade up to two Water Corporals to a Water Sarge................5 pts/model
  • If five Water Team Squads are purchased in a single Choice, you may upgrade one Water Corporal to a Water Lt.......10 pts/model
  • Any Water Corporal or Water Sarge may purchase Meltabombs........5pts
  • Any Water Sarge or Lt may take Melee Weapons.
  • Each squad may take a Chimera or Hornet as a Dedicated Transport.
Special Operations:
Water Teams are not lightly cast into battle – they are always given a specific mission to achieve, too important to be entrusted to others.  Before deployment, declare to your opponent which mission each Water Team choice is following.
  • Reconnaissance:  The reconnaissance mission grants Scouts and Move Through Cover special rules.
  • Airborne Assault: The airborne assault mission grants the Deep Strike special rule, and allows the Water Team to re-roll the scatter dice when they Deep Strike.
  • Behind Enemy Lines: The behind enemy lines mission grants the team the Infiltrate special rule and their weapons count as Pinning the first time the squad fires.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Narric

'Bout time I give you some feedback :P

HQ
I personally don't like HQs that aren't Ld10. It just seems to not work in my mind.

Also, as the Lion Commander and Angel Commander are practically the same unit with no differentiating rules, it would have been simpler to just make the Angel Suit and upgrade for the Lion Commander.

I like the Lion Command team, but why doesn't the angel Commander get a command team?

I assume the Regular Command team is the IG Option in practice. However its strange that only here do you include SRs for a HQ. They're also not easy to comment on, as you didn't include the rules for these rules.
I'd suggest including "Upgrade" to the unit comp for Fire commander and Chained Psyker. Including a statline can make it a little ambiguous otherwise.

Wargear
I'll say here, its an interesting method you've used to minimiss repeated text for wargear selection. I was genuinely surprised the Chaos Codex (and I assume later 6th ed coexi) don't do something similar.

Small error for Shield Generator, as you've writen "A Combat Shield confers a 4+ Invulnerable Save" ;)

Zeomega link seems a little OP, and there is an error.
"In addition, this model and any unit it is attached to may fire in Overtwatch at BS 2"
added in red what I assume you meant to include ;)

I think the Zeo-Sys could be a little cheaper. there is a chance that every player turn the pilot is going to go on a rampage, which isn't very useful at 60pts extra.

Elite
A little inconsistancy in the Angel suit. The Angel Commander is S5, while the regular suits are S4. If we assume pilot strength doesn't affect suit strength like Tau Battlesuits, then they should be the same.

I like the Squad Invul of the Golem suits, however it might be a good idea to include that they lose 4++ when their squad drops to 3-models or less. Otherwise someone will come along, lose one suit, and claim their unit still has 4++.

Error in Water teams:
"Any Water Corporal or Water Sarge may purchase Meltabombs........5pts"
Again, assumption in red ;)




Thats all I can really think to say right now. Looking great so far ^_^