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'Are Female Space Marines Plausible?' -A Persuasive Essay.

Started by Lord Sotek, December 12, 2012, 08:32:36 PM

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Wargamer

Sorry, Chicop, but stating "they use the same gear" is completely wrong. They have the same rules in 40K, but we are not talking about tabletop rules here; this is as much, if not more, about background, and in background Astartes gear is all but unusable by mere mortals. For example, just a few quotes given:

Astartes frag grenades are described as being so big that a normal Human woman can barely wrap both hands around it. By contrast, a 'normal' frag grenade used by the Imperial Guard and others are most definitely small enough for one-handed use.

Astartes 'swords' are bloody huge monsters. Hell, the Astartes combat knife has been pretty solidly classified as big enough to count as a sword to normal people.

As I mentioned earlier, the Godwyn pattern Bolter and its relatives is meant to be huge. The Godwyn-De'az is what the Sisters use, and is likely a miniaturised version of the gun to make it suitable for Humans. An Astartes-issue Bolter is a monstrous weapon, so heavy most humans would require a firing brace.

Astartes Power Armour in Inquisitor and Dark Heresy is typically better. The former, certainly, threw in a lot more toys; it had additional ablative ceramite plating, making it more resistant to thermal and energy weapons as well as upping its overall protection. Astartes Power Armour also links directly with the user via Black Carapace; it is never stated that the equivalent armours used by Sisters or Inquisitors incorporates this feature.

In short, the Astartes do have better gear, and that's before we consider their tanks, their support weapons, their gunships, fleet, etc. As powerful as the Sisterhood may be, they are still little more than elite, mortal infantry. The presence of five Sisters might turn the tide of a battle, but just five Space Marines can conquer an entire world.

That's primarily why I don't like the "Sisters" answer. They fill a very different niche, both in background and on the tabletop.
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

Quote from: Liberate the Warhammers
People who have no sense of Sportsmanship have NO PLACE designing any Gaming system

LinnScarlett

#16
Would now be the right time to mention my Ultrawolves? They have a few females among them (they're fleet based, and its hard enough to keep the chapter from dying out as it is to start selecting for something pre-pubescent unimportant to the space marine precedures as gender, whose impact bar identity issues are largely past puberty) Enfin, I'll resist delving into the complicated (but rather interesting, if I may say so) fluff of my loyalists' chapter. They don't really parade their female battle-brothers around, because it's pointless and I think they fear getting codex-slapped by the Ultramarines... hehe.

I am glad someone summed up all the points I tend to drum up when 'boys' complain about the odd feminine name on the base edges of my space marine models though (between that and female heads, I think it doesn't need shouting from the roof what gender you are, really, least of all in 40k, and I write the names of all my models on their bases tbh)

Oh and please - no boob plates; its actually mildly condescending/insulting and also completely pointless and rather cheesecakey. Who cares about boobs, wasn't this whole game about doing some serious rear-end kicking?  :facepalm001:

For some reason (...) I always get a bit pissy when guys say: "Why don't you go play Sororitas, they are chicks in power armour?" I don't usually dignify people with an answer any more on that one. It should be obvious why I am not playing Sororitas: I want to play Space Marines. Fuu! And I want there to be some women, because its sometimes a bit hard to identify with frothing-at-the-mouth-Abaddon or Calgar's-40k-Epeen-waving. That, and I think there are no real (other than: 'I don't like it' arguments) reasons not to have them, as was so eloquently detailed at the start of this thread. Besides, having had some martial arts training, I can kick decent butt. There is women in our own armies. There is women in pretty much all top positions. Few. But they're there. *shrug* I don't see what stops a chapter from recruiting them, enough chapters don't take the codex in-universe too narrow (Space Wolves most notably), it all depends on mentality. I doubt there are female Black Templers, but I am sure there are some beardless Space Wolves that aren't young men! ;)

Speaking of which, I thought (that I had read somewhere) that Space Marines aren't sterile, but that they can't conceive 'baby space marines' (and that this was entirely intended by the Emperor to keep them from founding little post-human dynasty empires and what not). But they could settle down and have completely normal kids, if they'd want that. It also lines up with some of the things Abnett suggests in the HH books, in that at least Horus was making sure his boys would have a life after war. And if there is an idea of 'after war', then certainly the Emperor wouldn't have rendered a few billion men completely biologically pointless intentionally? *shrugs* Anyway, that's what I thought!

I should really get around to uploading some of my Ultrawolf fluff, especially my dabbling in their background and some of the accompanying short stories. It would be interesting to get you guys' opinions on it.

-- Just my two cents! X- Linn / aka Brother-Captain (Nina) Orkbane  ::)

(PS. dealing with masculine titles and monikers like battle-brother is really not such a big deal; not to me anyway. Its easier that way. I rather be called Inquisitor Von Saar too, than Inquisitrix. So fetishtastic, most female monikers people come up with :P)
I need more time to do the Emperor's work!

You can read my stuff on 2S's Fluff and Stories.

Or, you can come visit my author page on Archive of Our Own. WARNING: NC-17

Wargamer

Well, "Inquisitor" has already been proven a gender-neutral title, but there are ways around it. Assassin's Creed, funnily enough, provides one. They are the "Brotherhood" of Assassins. They have female members, and this is made very clear from the get-go (assuming everyone in the castle in AC1 is an 'assassin'. If not, AC2 outright confirms it) yet they remain a Brotherhood, not a "Brotherhood and Sisterhood". Ergo, if you are a full-fledged Space Marine you are a Battle Brother irrespective of sex.
I wrote a novel - Dreamscape: The Wanderer.. Available in paperback and pdf.

Quote from: Liberate the Warhammers
People who have no sense of Sportsmanship have NO PLACE designing any Gaming system

LinnScarlett

#18
Mhm. I really don't understand why people make such a big deal out of it (read: start flamming me as soon as they lay eye on 1. my models or 2. bother to ask my opinion on it, as I am apparently a rare commodity myself as a 40k space marine playing woman). I personally find the whole issue a bit childish - it reminds me unfondly of when I was younger and the neighbour kids would say "you can't play soccer with us because your a girl and girls can't play soccer"...

On a META-level, there's nothing that makes it impossible (have a cookie and a hug, Isaac!  :)). Just slightly more difficult than the already incredibly difficult (15% success ratio anyone?) process of making a Space Marine to begin with. Suggesting all women, everywhere, would never have what it takes to be a Space Marine (or to be noticed/selected as a potential initiate) is pretty condescending at best (and I'd personally say rather discriminating/misogynic), especially as most of what Space Marines are is highly genetic/chemically induced, at any rate.

On an in-universe level, Space Marines seem so damn practical, and so very varying in opinions and believes, I can't see (all of) them dismiss potential promising recruits of female gender out of hand, just because they're female. It doesn't require reinventing Template Machinery to make up for it, either. To my Ultrawolves, at least, the whole gender-thing is like hair-colour or eye-colour: pretty unimportant when it comes to what it means to be a Space Marine!

Admittedly, you'd have a tough time figuring out one of my SM ladies is a lady, if you saw her walk by. But beside a male battle-brother, the slight differences remaining become obvious - the curve of eyes and lips, the slant of jaw and slight differences in stature. This is presuming of course you get to see them out of Power Armour! There's no telling with helmets on! Hehe!
I need more time to do the Emperor's work!

You can read my stuff on 2S's Fluff and Stories.

Or, you can come visit my author page on Archive of Our Own. WARNING: NC-17

Chicop76

Quote from: Linn Scarlett on December 14, 2012, 08:15:18 PM
Would now be the right time to mention my Ultrawolves? They have a few females among them (they're fleet based, and its hard enough to keep the chapter from dying out as it is to start selecting for something pre-pubescent unimportant to the space marine precedures as gender, whose impact bar identity issues are largely past puberty) Enfin, I'll resist delving into the complicated (but rather interesting, if I may say so) fluff of my loyalists' chapter. They don't really parade their female battle-brothers around, because it's pointless and I think they fear getting codex-slapped by the Ultramarines... hehe.

I am glad someone summed up all the points I tend to drum up when 'boys' complain about the odd feminine name on the base edges of my space marine models though (between that and female heads, I think it doesn't need shouting from the roof what gender you are, really, least of all in 40k, and I write the names of all my models on their bases tbh)

Oh and please - no boob plates; its actually mildly condescending/insulting and also completely pointless and rather cheesecakey. Who cares about boobs, wasn't this whole game about doing some serious rear-end kicking?  :facepalm001:

For some reason (...) I always get a bit pissy when guys say: "Why don't you go play Sororitas, they are chicks in power armour?" I don't usually dignify people with an answer any more on that one. It should be obvious why I am not playing Sororitas: I want to play Space Marines. Fuu! And I want there to be some women, because its sometimes a bit hard to identify with frothing-at-the-mouth-Abaddon or Calgar's-40k-Epeen-waving. That, and I think there are no real (other than: 'I don't like it' arguments) reasons not to have them, as was so eloquently detailed at the start of this thread. Besides, having had some martial arts training, I can kick decent butt. There is women in our own armies. There is women in pretty much all top positions. Few. But they're there. *shrug* I don't see what stops a chapter from recruiting them, enough chapters don't take the codex in-universe too narrow (Space Wolves most notably), it all depends on mentality. I doubt there are female Black Templers, but I am sure there are some beardless Space Wolves that aren't young men! ;)

Speaking of which, I thought (that I had read somewhere) that Space Marines aren't sterile, but that they can't conceive 'baby space marines' (and that this was entirely intended by the Emperor to keep them from founding little post-human dynasty empires and what not). But they could settle down and have completely normal kids, if they'd want that. It also lines up with some of the things Abnett suggests in the HH books, in that at least Horus was making sure his boys would have a life after war. And if there is an idea of 'after war', then certainly the Emperor wouldn't have rendered a few billion men completely biologically pointless intentionally? *shrugs* Anyway, that's what I thought!

I should really get around to uploading some of my Ultrawolf fluff, especially my dabbling in their background and some of the accompanying short stories. It would be interesting to get you guys' opinions on it.

-- Just my two cents! X- Linn / aka Brother-Captain (Nina) Orkbane  ::)

(PS. dealing with masculine titles and monikers like battle-brother is really not such a big deal; not to me anyway. Its easier that way. I rather be called Inquisitor Von Saar too, than Inquisitrix. So fetishtastic, most female monikers people come up with :P)

I can see space wolves doing so. It would make sense for them to have female marines. Heck I play sisters of battle :(. I took them up cause of the fleur de lais and I'm from New Orleans which is a strong Catholic city, also a strong lustful city :). Anyway they fit wit my back ground and that's why I decided to play them. I thought about doing a pope mobile, but thanks to rule changes that's not going to happen.

Well their weapons have to be bigger since they like 10-12 ft tall. If you are double a persons size you need double the person weapons. Sadly the table top does not show this.

I would like boobs to show how ever that my model is a female. However nudity and stripper looks is not what I am going for, although I did get vects female slaves from the barge to represent Mardi Gras ( traditional female raise shirt boobs are shown while thy screaming" throw me something mister" and they receive throws). How ever I want competent looking females as my actual troops and not gun bunnies. The boobs is there for oh it's a female and not for male pleasure.

However without re read a ton of fluff it's doubful for a female to be a marine. Like I said before they would more likely be molded into a sister than a marine.

The space wolves is in a situation where hey you kick butt, so you're a marine. The environment moldsa Space Wolves into the best marines in the universe.

For our forces we still don't have woman in special forces to my knowledge. I know with the year they just started putting woman in front line positions. You can see space marines as those special forces. Is it fair, I really can't tell you. Personally I have no problem having a woman green berett. As far as I've been told woman can't pass the required physical conditioning for the special forces in America. However I think Isreali special forces do have woman and some othe countries. Do they change the requirement for woman to pass is beyond me. All I can say woman and men physical training scores are not the same. For example I have to do 40 pushups while a woman my age can get away with 22. If they need to do the same with special forces maybe, but you have to concider they go through a much differant ordeal than a standard soilder.

Also we don't call woman Huwomans. We call people humans. A lot of terms where females are included still use male dominant terms as discriptors.


LinnScarlett

Hmm, well, I can't say for all, but where I trained we had no nancy-standards for women. You either make it, or you don't.

Sure, there are physical differences and men - but not ALL men, not even the 'vast majority' of them - are ahead on strength and endurance at pure baseline, but that difference is not insurmountable. Our sexual dimorphism in that regard is a joke compared to most other species, and its getting less and less. That and part of why women lack behind is also psychological - don't underestimate the power of culture and tradition - no matter what we do or where we go (when it comes to dude-sports or hobbies or whatever), we get told we don't have to do as well as John or Jake, because we're girls. Positive discrimination is still discrimination, no? I am a GIRL not CRIPPLE. (No offense taken, by the way, just pointing out the redundancy of the argument/logic! ;))

I am sure there is going to be female special forces as soon as one gets up and makes it her case to want to become one (and manage to elbow those aside that wouldn't be as ok with it as you are - cuddos to you for that :))

Beside, on the case of Space Marines - no human male could do that, either. There is a reason they are soaked in androgens and genetically modified! The prepubescent differences between boys and girls are genetically and biologically incredibly close, its largely during (and because of) puberty that our beloved differences appear. So on that account, a female mold is as good as a male mold. Doesn't require Emperor induced intervention to use them instead/as well.

Of course, I just want some female Space Marines because I want some female Space Marines (and have enough ego to think I could make the grade in 40k if I damn well wanted to, hehe). I am not advocating ridiculous 50/50 deals or whatever. But I want the possibility to be there - fine if someone's corner of the universe doesn't sport them, mine does, and trust me, she won't lag behind her male squadmates one bit either (praise the Emperor for genetic cocktails, eh?) :)
I need more time to do the Emperor's work!

You can read my stuff on 2S's Fluff and Stories.

Or, you can come visit my author page on Archive of Our Own. WARNING: NC-17

Chicop76







Remind me of the first starship troppers movie. One day I will get around reading the book. Well going by that universe their are space marine females. Heck this where the Space Marine concept was stolen. The original book was in the 1950s, so the troopers been out longer it just took awhile for the movie to come out.

That is why I'm so indifferant about woman special forces. I think to lower the standards to allow woman in is an injustice. If a woman can make the grade let her in for heavens sake. My concern is the standards may be to high for a woman to reach. I don't like treating woman like cripples.

I find some of the issue which also the same issue with minorities is that if it benefits you than you fall into the sterotype. If it is negative than you make a fuss. A example may be since you are a woman you stuck doing desk work instead working out in the field which some woman would go ok. No problem with that. When I say field I mean back breaking work. The classic hold the door open for a lady or etc. When you want to say play baseball you can't cause it is a guy sport. Out of all sports I can't immagine why woman and men can't play baseball on the same level.

I for one see people as people. I hate doing things for people cause it takes away from them from actual learning and growing as a person.

However when I say I doubt there are female Ultramarines it's due to the fluff and not my personal opinion. Unless an author that is cannon write in a female ultramine it is going to be assumed there is none.

Sisters of battle comes off as te female answer of being close to space marines. Chapters like space wolves that may be more isolated from terra more than likely would have female marines than planets that's near Terra.

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/264/4/1/hello_kitty_space_marines_by_kynamarioc-d4ajrz3.jpg


With all that being said it is your army. If you want Hello Kitty Space Marines than by golly do Hello Kitty Space Marines.

However what your army contains and what is fluff is a differant story.


Lord Sotek

#22
The following represents my thoughts on portraying female Astartes.

These are Space Marines. If you look closely, you will notice the noble Astartes in these pict-slates are female.


http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs17/i/2007/223/1/4/Maria_Octavia_by_Greymark.jpg

These are not Space Marines. If you look closely, you will notice they are blasphemies against the Emperor and good taste, and should be purged:


http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs13/f/2007/079/8/7/Blood_Raven_by_kaaskop.jpg

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/039/7/b/warhammer_sexy_space_marine_01_by_bluephoenix012-d3930ur.png
Quote from: Saulus on March 17, 2011, 06:16:56 PM
Often I hear delusional ramble like "I painted and collected my army as ultramarine tyranid hunters....but Pedro is really good, so now I'm using him, but I'm just going to call him Jimbob-Fistpumper, cause that fits with my

Paradoxrifts


I cannot see that there will ever be female space marines.

This is because representations of 'grimdark realistic' hyper-masculine transsexual women are unmarketable to the core demographic that plays WH40K. There will never be any official miniatures, so there will never be any official artwork, and so there will never be any emphasis on changing the status quo from where it is now. The idea itself is measurably less silly than failed Space Wolf aspirants mutating into giant wolves. But werewolves, even science fiction werewolves are at least marketable, whereas transsexuals have never been marketable to the same audience that Games Workshop markets WH40K towards.

Just take a good hard look at the current line of Slaanesh Daemons. They've moved on from replacing everything on a female body that isn't tits and ass with something that is capable of disemboweling you, and now they're selling transsexualism as horror.

LinnScarlett

#24
Quote from: Paradoxrifts on December 15, 2012, 09:18:22 AM

I cannot see that there will ever be female space marines.

This is because representations of 'grimdark realistic' hyper-masculine transsexual women are unmarketable to the core demographic that plays WH40K. There will never be any official miniatures, so there will never be any official artwork, and so there will never be any emphasis on changing the status quo from where it is now. The idea itself is measurably less silly than failed Space Wolf aspirants mutating into giant wolves. But werewolves, even science fiction werewolves are at least marketable, whereas transsexuals have never been marketable to the same audience that Games Workshop markets WH40K towards.

Just take a good hard look at the current line of Slaanesh Daemons. They've moved on from replacing everything on a female body that isn't tits and dyi with something that is capable of disemboweling you, and now they're selling transsexualism as horror.

I resent the way you phrased that, through which, by implication, you suggest I have no value as a customer as it's not 'meant for me anyway, so your ideas/opinions/feelings/notions/wants do not matter (to GWS)'. Heh. I like to think W40k is starting the last years to aim more for its adult audience of whichever gender and sexual orientation (that actually has the money for this hobby) rather than just 14 year old boys...

At any rate, I think you are missing the entire point - not just mine, but especially Isaac's. We're not talking about table top stats or marketing prospects, its a fluff discussion and fluff doesn't preclude it 100%. Whether or not you (or anyone) is grossed out by the idea of more masculine women, really has nothing to do with that. Just because its 'unmarkettable' as you claim, doesn't mean it can't exist in fluff. It never stopped writers on other topics before - how many of the existing chapters can you buy boxes for? the existing IG flavours? The bloody Inquisition and Navy? :)

What I don't understand, is why most anti-female-space-marine proponents appear... 'afraid'... of female Space Marines. As if Space Marines will somehow be less for it. Less masculine? Less serious? Less grimdark? Less brotherlylovy? Less 'Space Marine'? Why are these things the sole property of men (in this case Space Marines)? Because what one basically says is that including a female/woman will degrade their value. It's that bottomline notion that ticks me off about the vast majority of these discussions: that it all becomes somehow less if there is women involved. Its no different than the (fortunately largely extinct) notion that black/dark skinned are less capable than white people. Nobody would dare say 'you're black, so you can't be a Space Marine', hm?

On a completely different topic, concerning what you said about the T&A, I am reminded of Khorne suddenly having a girlfr--- I mean, Queen (and I keep wondering how she and Angron get along... :P). Maybe next, canon will 'find' a document that heretically showed the Emperor had a harem (I wouldn't be surprised...)? Fluff can, does and will change. So saying 'never' is a moot point. W40k has matured a lot the past decade, and that is a GOOD thing. Some of its notions were rather oldfashioned without being charming. Female Space Marines might pop up as suddenly as female Imperial Guard did - although whether or not they will be feminine, is a whole 'nother discussion of course. But then, does that matter to Space Marines? Probably not.

I like to think the Emperor was enlightened in all departments not to be a complete [censored] when it comes to gender issues. That would put a serious blemish on our beloved savior and god. :)

PS. Isaac, the picture of the female DA is awesome! That is exactly what I imagine female Space Marines to be like: serious, down to business and not to be messed with, just like their male counterparts. The picture reminds me a little of my 2nd Captain (Ca)nina Orkbane of the Ultrawolves; although the latter is a bit broader ('eastern european, am I allowed to say that?') in the features still. And dark-haired/tan-skinned (per the chapter's standard). Think "if Horus had a twin sister". ;)
I need more time to do the Emperor's work!

You can read my stuff on 2S's Fluff and Stories.

Or, you can come visit my author page on Archive of Our Own. WARNING: NC-17

Paradoxrifts


The lore of WH40K is marketing. It has always been about marketing. It will always be about marketing. The sole reason for it's creation was to help sell Games Workshop branded products, and when I interpret it as as marketing material instead of background material for a game that I would like to play I would be straight up lying to you if I told you that I think the company gives a shit about your ideas/opinions/feelings/notions/wants. Their marketing arm will have spent more time this year trying to figure out how to convince mothers that buying their company's products for their sons will not ultimately turn them into basement-dwelling bearded men, then they would've spent figuring out how to sell the same products to female players.   

I do not like lying to people, even if it will mean that people will dislike me for telling them what I feel is the truth. If you do not like being told the truth then I suggest that we bring this conversation to an end.

But if you, Isaac, Wargamer or anybody else wishes to create their own female space marines, I say go for it and go hard. It's been increasingly hard to justify telling people like yourselves that you're messing with the integrity of the game with your personal additions when Games Workshop HQ itself has a long history of being more than willing to chop it all up and change it all around to better suit themselves and line their wallets.

Quote from: Linn Scarlett on December 15, 2012, 02:13:33 PMI like to think W40k is starting the last years to aim more for its adult audience of whichever gender and sexual orientation (that actually has the money for this hobby) rather than just 14 year old boys...



Because there is so much evidence of that.
     

Arguleon-veq

I think a big issue with all this is that if they did exist you just wouldnt actually be able to tell that its a female marine away.

The fact that becoming a marine actually changes facial features. That they would be recruiting before women fully developed were there isnt much difference between males and females anyway.

So, they would have massive muscle mass. They would have their faces changed to be pretty similar to the rest of their chapter [or their primarch], they would have deep voices. They would act exactly the same as other marines thanks to mental conditioning. They probably wouldnt even have breasts or not any you could notice thanks to the age of recruitment and the muscle mass.

The only way you could actually tell it was a female marine is if they were naked. So you could have Marines in a Chapter that are female and even close observers wouldnt know as who gets to actually see a marine go to the loo?. In any combat situation they wont come out of their armour.

So whats the point really? they look the same, they act the same, they have the same armour. What does it matter what gender they are?.

The one place were I think it could be interesting is in fluff about aspirants passing the initial tests to be accepted into the chapter to actually be a marine. This even makes sense from a fluff standpoint as at the age humans complete tasks to get the notice of a chapter then boys and girls are not noticeably different in terms of physical ability. So young girls could easily outdo young boys.
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Lord Sotek

#27
Quote from: Paradoxrifts on December 15, 2012, 09:18:22 AM
There will never be any official miniatures, so there will never be any official artwork, and so there will never be any emphasis on changing the status quo from where it is now. The idea itself is measurably less silly than failed Space Wolf aspirants mutating into giant wolves. But werewolves, even science fiction werewolves are at least marketable, whereas transsexuals have never been marketable to the same audience that Games Workshop markets WH40K towards.

1. The hypothetical transsexual female marines in that branch of my theory are only that way because I have to work around the wording of the 'male-only' fluff idiocy that GW put into writing. GW doesn't need such convolutions because they're perfectly able to just retcon the obnoxious line out of the way, in which case non-y-chromsomal space amazons wearing power armor doesn't strike me has having too much of a marketability issue. I too doubt they'll ever do it , but it's just laziness on their part, not difficulty.

2. 40k's universe and lore are patently more than just a market scheme. That may be all that the schmucks up at GW HQ care about its existence these days, but 40k exists as a framework for telling stories and exercising one's imagination as well. I dare you to tell me with a straight face that you believe Dan Abnet, Bill King, or Aaron Dempski-Bowden are just in it for the money. And even if they were, we fans are certainly not, and we have thus collectively made 40k a Setting and a Universe and a Hobby beyond merely shelling out cash for overpriced tiny plastic men.

You say GW will never produce official material or products with female space marines as if this means something; but Games Workshop will never make officially sanctioned 40k material about my Bright Lords, either. Or for any other DIY marine armies, for that matter. I doubt you would say that means we should all just pack up our homebrew chapters and chuck them in the dustbin.

Quote
Just take a good hard look at the current line of Slaanesh Daemons. They've moved on from replacing everything on a female body that isn't tits and dyi with something that is capable of disemboweling you, and now they're selling transsexualism as horror.

I assume you're griping about the ignorant smallmindedness of this, in which case I feel you. But once again, GW's lack of interest/the fanbase's collective ignorance doesn't really have a legitimate bearing on the fluff-soundness of an idea.





@ Linn: Right on, Battle-Brotherette. ;)
You should PM/IM me about your DIY chapter sometime. I love reading about and discussing custom chapters, and would love to hear some new tales and offer feedback. Maybe I can swap stories about my Bright Lords, or the Adepta Astartes in Wargamer's Supernovas chapter, in repayment. Meanwhile, have a doodle I drew of one of the female marines in Wargamer's chapter.

My favorite things about the female marine I posted are the following:
*She's not remotely sexualized. She's a space marine with a look of iron determination, a clear aura of "I am about to kick Heretic dyi," and clearly geared and armored for all out war. She is a fighting machine and not a model exhibiting titillatingly-cut power armor themed lingerie.

*She's feminine enough to tell that she's female... If you already knew to look for it. Yet despite this, if one simply showed the image with no context, I wager there's a fair chance the viewer would think it's a male space marine who maybe looks a bit girly with his long hair.





Quote from: Arguleon-veq on December 16, 2012, 12:41:54 AM
I think a big issue with all this is that if they did exist you just wouldnt actually be able to tell that its a female marine away.

The fact that becoming a marine actually changes facial features. That they would be recruiting before women fully developed were there isnt much difference between males and females anyway.

So, they would have massive muscle mass. They would have their faces changed to be pretty similar to the rest of their chapter [or their primarch], they would have deep voices. They would act exactly the same as other marines thanks to mental conditioning. They probably wouldnt even have breasts or not any you could notice thanks to the age of recruitment and the muscle mass.

The only way you could actually tell it was a female marine is if they were naked. So you could have Marines in a Chapter that are female and even close observers wouldnt know as who gets to actually see a marine go to the loo?. In any combat situation they wont come out of their armour.

I've always imagined that female Astartes would be exceptionally masculine women, but that if you knew what you were looking for, you'd be able to pick up the subtle hints that they're female from the cast of their features, or perhaps a minutely more slender build than other marines.

Regardless, since the point of justifying female Astartes is distinctly not so that I can create superhumanly sized jiggly bits to admire, I don't see why it matters that female space marines wouldn't have triple F's, hourglass figures, or be likely to win Miss Galaxy 40,000.

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So whats the point really? they look the same, they act the same, they have the same armour. What does it matter what gender they are?

So, say I'm rolling up a Dark Heresy character. A guardswoman. She's not very pretty or curvy, has a military crew cut because she's a soldier, her flak armor is just as uniform and featureless as any other Cadian's, and unless you were hunting around in her underwear drawer it wouldn't immediately jump out at you that she was female.

Would you really tell me therefore that you don't see the point in making my character female, since she looks largely like any other Guardsman, and I should just have made a male character? I rather doubt you would, because I wager you are quite aware it would be silly and smallminded, and serve no constructive purpose in the formation of a character. It would just be arbitrary and restrictive. I turn your question back to you; what does it matter what gender someone's Space Marines are?

Now, just make the jump from flak armor to power armor. Justifying, and wanting to justify, the potential for a female space marine isn't about creating amazonian wank material; it's about wanting to make characters, and chafing under a completely arbitrary, nonsensical, and honestly quite alienating constraint on that imaginative process.

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The one place were I think it could be interesting is in fluff about aspirants passing the initial tests to be accepted into the chapter to actually be a marine. This even makes sense from a fluff standpoint as at the age humans complete tasks to get the notice of a chapter then boys and girls are not noticeably different in terms of physical ability. So young girls could easily outdo young boys.

Yeah, that's one of the points I mention- Not only to debunk the cavemen who still occasionally try to trot out "hurr durr women are physically inferior to men" as an argument against female marines, but because the prepubescent recruitment age actually directly means that the gender-exclusivity of the process has even less of a leg to stand on, because the biological gender differences in pre-adolescent children are so comparatively small.
Quote from: Saulus on March 17, 2011, 06:16:56 PM
Often I hear delusional ramble like "I painted and collected my army as ultramarine tyranid hunters....but Pedro is really good, so now I'm using him, but I'm just going to call him Jimbob-Fistpumper, cause that fits with my

DEF Knight

Depicting women in games such as these is always tough because of the artistic considerations. You don't want moulded breast plates and feminine features? Then why bother pointing out they're women? If they look like men, then for all intents and purposes they ARE men to the average observer, and since you can do naught but observe these imaginary things it doesn't matter does it? Or is making them identical to men just another way to marginalize them? Then again going out of their way to exaggerate the differences isn't helping things either. Peddling some ridiculous over-feminine ideal gets real ugly real quickly. Ultimately there's no right answer.

All of the women I know who play RPGs, AAA titles on their Playstations, Magic Cards, and some might have played 40K all much prefer wildly over sexualized women in the media they consume. As an anecdote a good friend of mine once asked my opinion on which Sylvanas Windrunner statue she should get off of ebay. I looked at the two links she gave me, and gave an opinion largely based the posing of the sculpt- one was far more dynamic and made much better use of negative space. After taking my input into consideration her decision was largely informed by which she thought was sexier- a more overtly sexualized pose with far more revealing clothing (or lack thereof) was what she went with, for precisely that reason. Are all women like this? No, not in the least. I'm sure they're rooted deeply in the minority, but they represent virtually all of the women I know who would be likely prospects for GW wares.

Don't like anecdotal evidence? Let's take video games as an example. Video games are really, in their odd way, a great, shining example of women's successes in equality (well in a few respects, a horrible failure in many others!). More women play video games than men. A lot more. the split is something like 60/40 women to men gamers, or more so (probably higher than that, 2-to-1 is probably a safer estimate). And yet the actual money spent on video games is skewed drastically in the opposite direction. Women account for a tiny percentage of dollars spent on games, I don't remember the number but if memory serves it's less than 20% despite being the majority of the ones playing the games! Why? I honestly don't know. I don't think I've ever heard anyone even attempt, let alone give, a good reason. What I have heard are correlations. Women (for the most part, the outliers like the ones mentioned above buck the trend), don't spend a lot of money on video games. Period. Give them an opportunity to game on the cheap, they'll go for it, but they will very rarely plunk down serious money for video games. (unlike guys, who are more than happy to shell out very large quantities of money for the next big fancy electronic box and the special edition hyper-expensive version of everything)


Computers becoming ubiquitous, consoles becoming entertainment hubs, motion controls doubling for exercise machines, smartphones being constant companions, social media integrating gaming

LinnScarlett

#29
Your rampant flinging of stereotypes astounds me...

I was aware I am not part of the majority of women that aspire to be like J-Lo her jiggly bits and feel the need to have equally bouncy imaginary avatars and joyride whatever they can get. But don't make it sound like we're all supposed to be like that or we're not normal. That's pretty rude, and a monologue entirely pointless to the discussion I thought this thread would have. Namely one concerning the possibility of fluffy female Space Marines, rather than getting slammed around the ears with marketting and stereotype excuses yet again. Did anyone actually raise an actual discussion point? Like the Y-chromosome theory I came across a while ago (and that Isaac quite neatly worked around), that one always made me frown and think on how to get around that! But I guess having that sort of discussions about this is wishful thinking, even here. :(

Maybe I am not getting it, but I really don't see what half the comments so far have anything to do with the discussion Isaac tried to raise. And that makes me sad, because it was a discussion I was looking forward to have when I saw his post.

Mind you, have no doubt that I voice my opinion and desire often enough in the necessary surroundings, but I don't really expect or need GWS to change models or create new ones. I just wish the 'vast majority' of the W40k flufboy community wouldn't be so horrifically narrow-minded about the idea of female space marines without giving it a serious thought. Its no fun getting your ideas trashed and ridiculed on sight, especially not if you tried hard to make them be fluffy and acceptable.

Anyway, I will not be obnoxiously hypocritical and force-feed female space marines to you all in return. I am sure many corners of the universe and many chapters don't have them, don't know about them or otherwise don't care about them and that is all fine by me. They're there for me in one of my chapters, and I neither raped fluff nor the space-marine concept to have them in there. People slamming it down on sight and telling me 'it cant be because it cant be' just gets to me every time - and yea, Isaac, I'll message you. :)

Although I do fondly remember a certain LB author saying that, no matter what it is, it happened some where, some time, in the vast grimdark of warhammer 40.000! And that statement didn't include a 'bar female Space Marines' clause. Hehe! :)

Hrm, it fondly reminds me that the army I expected to get flak never gets any, unlike my Ultrawolves - teh army in question being my 222nd Catachan Carnotaurs with their female Commissar! Must be the uniform, am I right? And no, she's not slutty, and yes, they take her seriously. *points at the links down below* Port Green tells her story :)
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